"Polar Colonies on the Moon?" Topic

Fact: They have now confirmed there are multiple craters at both the north and south Lunar poles that NEVER see the 'light of day'/perpetual darkness.

Fact: They(scientists) have also now determined than some/many of those same craters contain water 'ice'…leftover from comets or whatever…for some time. Though water ice should eventually 'sublimate' in a perfect vacuum over time

Fact: putting solar arrays on the rims of some of these craters would provide 24/365 power…(except for an occassional 'eclipse' by the earth)…

Fact: any lunar base would have to have some form of 'meteor' and radiation shielding for long term residency/colony.

Supposedly scientists have 'smelted' small amounts of lunar 'soil/regolith' and found that 1. it releases oxy/water, 2. it can be cast in blocks like concret or made into 'cement' with water…3. It is a good 'shield' against both radiation and micrometeors….

Soooooo….why not a base in a polar crater…one of the bigger ones…below the surface…where the soil and the shadow effect would protect the staff from both micro-meteors and the worst the sun could do, short of a supernova???

Most of Clavius moonbase from 2001 and Alpha Moonbase from Space 1999 were UNDERground…though some surface facilites…(if you see maps of the two basies…they are eerily similar in layout)…exist in support of launch ops, communicatins and outside support for above ground expeditions and science.

You can bet their living quarters and rec facilities are DEEP down…so they don't get the 'mutant' effect as show of the humans on Mars in Total Recall from UV etc…

And so IF we established munltinational/corporational bases (industry AND international) on both poles…other bases and facilities could 'branch out' from there…(like Radio telescopes on FARSIDE/optical too???

Solid SF stuff for a wargame/rpg…and if they happened to find/break thru into some sub-lunar caverns….BWAH-hah-ha….maybe the moon isn't as 'lifeless' as thought…if it has ice/water???

Heck, there are more moons and 'dwarf planets' with liquid water out past Saturn…even Pluto might have an 'ocean'…

If there's heat, chemistry and water…who knows WHAT'S out there..or IN there??? (like comet life shown in 'Off On a Comet' about an epedition to 'mine' Halley's comet…

Slish!
Sgt DWW-btod

I recently watched a documentary that did mention that the first bases/colonies should be situated in craters with ice.

I can't recall the name though.

Dan

Here ya go:

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Dan

Meh, been there done that. Mars next please.

Mmmmm moonbase alpha…I volunteer…good health, multi crafted engineer/technician, inspections/training specialist…let's go!

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SpaceX is interested in manned missions to the Moon and Mars. Bigelow definitely wants to put a base there, after their space station (it's not a hotel, it's a station). They plan to land the whole thing in one piece. It's just a matter of time.

I truly think that Robots could do a lot of the grunt work, send up the robots first, then send modular units, labs, crew quarters, power source solar panels, storage lockers you name it just the basic stuff, let the robots put all together then send the crew, several reasons 1 resources , less food, water and oxygen wasted putting the it together and waiting for the next shipment to come in, plus less to send so that we could send other items instead. 2 New Technology, as time goes by sending up all this equipment, new things will come along now the crew can learn about these new items or technology while still here from the people who made it. 3 Construction Mishaps losing a robot in the beginning will not effect such a program as it would a human life, once a human life is lost attempting to put this all together, all those who think we shouldn't be there would be coming out of the wood work, demanding an end to such a program and try to block funding for it. once you have a couple hundred up there not so easy to kill such a program then. IMHO this could be done.

I'd like to see people go, but other than a visit or two, I really wouldn't want to live there.

Zero-G, or Low-G human-powered, winged flight might be fun, as well as other sports games too, e.g. Zero-G, or Low-G Basketball, Dodgeball, or Racquetball…..

The moon, or an orbital station would make a great staging point for further space exploration throughout the solar system.

Moon caves are the future.

Moon caves are the future.

I wish.

I expect "staying on Earth" is the future.
-Kle.

Actually, caves for MARS bases may also be the 'wave of the future'…(for long-term settlements) for a lot of the same reasons of having a base on the moon, in sub-lunar caves.

Plus, the chances of finding sub-surface water/caverns? on Mars…might be even greater! (like Carlsbad Caverns etc on Earth…

The question is…or would possibly become…if there are 'protected caverns' (including water) on Mars…the possibility of indigenous life also goes up. And while it might not be like all the Martians (from Marvin to Mars Attacks)…even if it is 'only' like bacteria or tube worms or 'lower' forms…

Well, do we have the 'right' to interfere, possibly destroy or contaminate even 'simple' life??? Or should Mars remain 'pristine' like a Wilderness preserve…(albeit an expensive one to get to???)

'Clavius Moon Base' from 2001:
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Moonbase Alpha:

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"In the future there is only war" (here on earth) till humans are no more. Because sadly to say we spend more money and man hours on war/killing and/or trying to stop war/killing with war/killing then on the other 10 top things you can come up with added. Space tech very very sadly to say is not even in the top 100 things we spend money on.

its a nice dream, moon bases and mars bases would be to cool.

"I'd like to see people go, but other than a visit or two, I really wouldn't want to live there"

I would. I have lived in isolated places that you would die if exposed to the environment, and life goes on within the walls…-50* +wind chill outside and I was inside wearing shorts, flip flops, and a Hawaiian shirt. We made our own water, power, heat, etc..

Add hydroponics and air scrubbers (algae YouTube link and mechanical link ) and life would be good.

I would imagine that the caves and tunnels could be sealed/sprayed with a series of polymers to create a semi-solid thick skin that would resist shock and maintain an atmosphere.

Once that is accomplished then a series of compartments, modular sections that would allow for areas to be sealed if issues presented themselves.

Pockets of hydroponics throughout the entire facility that would provide air exchange, tasty yummies/nibbles, and the comfort the living things bring to an industrial environment.

So yeah…I would go. And I would stay. Fun times.

""In the future there is only war" (here on earth) till humans are no more. Because sadly to say we spend more money and man hours on war/killing and/or trying to stop war/killing with war/killing then on the other 10 top things you can come up with added. Space tech very very sadly to say is not even in the top 100 things we spend money on."

This kind of hyperbole is nonsense The US is spending at the most 20% of the budget on defense its nowhere near more then the ten top items added together the FOUR top items added together amount to 57% of our budget ONE of those is NASA which represents a little less then half of the budget spent for defense (8.13% VS 19.74) Do we spend more on defense then I would like to see sure in a perfect fluffy bunny world where everything is sweetness and light we shouldn't spend ANYTHING However that aint reality.

I've long thought that we're wasting our time with Mars until we've established a permanend and useful presence on the Moon, if as nothing else than the aforementioned launching point for farther-reaching missions.

They're only supporting the ISS (space station) after 2020…(after how many years of building the thing?) and then what? De-orbit the whole STACK into the pacific???

We need an orbital station and moonbase and then go to Mars…They establish 'base-camps' and equipment/supplies caches for mountain-climbing and when they were going to both poles…why would space exploration not follow a similar path.

Space 1999/2001 had similar concepts…space-stations moonbases…and so on…(only now it looks more like 2099 for Moonbase Alpha at all???)

but for gaming purposes…I'd use both Clavius and Alpha (since so similar)…with Clavius being a 'colony' and Alpha being more science/exploration driven….Eagles are for Lunar and beyond travel…like DC-3 of space…with the Aries for commercial travel from one of the space stations…

I think it could 'mesh' if you worked it right and set it in 2099 or even 2199!!!

Slishfully,
Sgt DWW-btod

I imagine once you stay on the moon for a year, or more, in the low-G environment, it will be hard to return, if it is safe at all.

Muscle atrophe will probably injure, if not outright kill those that try.

From what I read, the major problem is how to handle the constant radiation in space. A person on the International Space Station receive the amount of radiation in one day what people on the terrestial earth recieve in a year. Only until that is solved will longterm extra-terrestial habitation and travel be possible.

Pehaps the only real lunar inhabitants will be robots?

@Sgt. Slish

The ISS may well be extended beyond 2020 if additional cost savings are made, such as opening it up to commercial ops. There's been a serious proposal from private industry to take over shuttle ops for $1.8 USD billion, so I see no reason why ISS cannot be maintained at a similar high level of ops for reasonable funding. After 2020, the Zvezda module might need retirement, or the Russians could break off their half of the station to build their own. If they stay, ISS would also become an assembly point for interplanetary missions (ie Spacedock).

@Tigertankguy,

Pile dirt on your head and you're safe from rads.

@Top Gun Ace,

Muscle atrophy / bone density loss will be slower in 1/6gee, and it would never get to the 1/3 genetic baseline level that you see in coma patients.

Radiation and muscle atrophy are concerns to be sure but these are manageable.

Lots of shielding, sensors, ablative/absorptive materials, etc. would take care of the radiation…one would hope that the rads could be converted into an energy source?

The muscle atrophy would be a concern that diet, exercise, and consistent monitoring could and should help to alleviate.

But seriously I would go tonight if the option were available to me…and my wife…I wonder if I could bring my cats? Hmm there is an interesting thought all together, what pets could we bring with us?

Especially Americans, we have pets.

I suspect those animals that are already in another medium like fish would do better then terrestrial types. I need to do some research.

Robot animals I suspect…and or digital critters…pika pika pika chuuuu :)

oooo ooohooo tribbles please!

Gesundheit!

ANALOG Magazine had a far neater radiation shield concept that engineers are working on; Magnetic shileding via a groundloop of superconductor.

A loop of superconducting material, given a short initial pulse of electricla power, becomes an electromagnet that forms a toridal field around the loop, forming a huge doughnut shape trhough which radiation has a struggle apssing. Given that radiation will enter from a horizontal angle at the poles of the moon, and the base will be in a circular crater most probably, you have effective shielding and at relatively low cost and effort.

Soooooo….why not a base in a polar crater

As a stop off point, perhaps. Science base with a few dozen people, maybe. As settlement, never.

The moon is less habitable than Antarctica. Less habitable than the bottom of the sea, come to that. It's actually less habitable than near-earth orbit, since it is a second gravity well, and without the option of spinning to give artificial gravity.

In terms of spreading humanity out, the moon is a non-option.

You have to come up with some economic reason why it would work. Lots of ideas sound good in theory, but are ruined by the fact that they are uneconomic. Good luck with finding a way to make the moon break-even, let alone profitable.