"Irish rebellion" Topic

Questions about the IR. During the Easter Rebellion did the Irish rebels wear only civilian clothes or some uniforms? Who opposed them; early WW1 British? Did the Irish wear uniforms during the 1922 rebellion or during the time of troubles civil war? When did the Blacks and tans fight? The Irish Constabulary?

Try these:

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28mm figures by Musketeer Miniatures of course.

During the Easter Rebellion did the Irish rebels wear only civilian clothes or some uniforms?

Some Irish Volunteers wore Volunteer uniform (similar in cut to British uniform, but a more greenish colour), many more wore civilian clothes. The Irish Citizen Army wore a green uniform with a slouch hat. There are a number of illustrations in this Osprey:

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Who opposed them; early WW1 British?

Short answer – yes. Many of the British soldiers who fought in the Easter Rising (the name by which the 1916 rebellion is commonly known in Ireland) were in fact Irishmen, as were many of the casualties on both sides.

Did the Irish wear uniforms during the 1922 rebellion or during the time of troubles civil war?

During the Anglo-Irish War/War of Independence/Tan War 1919-1921, the Irish Republican Army, or IRA, did not habitually wear uniform clothing. Some Volunteer officers did wear uniform items such as hats or tunics, but this was not the norm.

During the Civil War (June 1922 – May 1923) the National Army (the armed forces of the newly created Irish Free State) typically wore a standard uniform. an illustration of same can be seen on the back cover of the publication linked to above.

The Republican forces (those opposed to the Anglo-Irish Treaty) typically wore the same type of clothing as the IRA did during the War of Independence.

When did the Blacks and tans fight? The Irish Constabulary?

During the War of Independence, although a number of RIC installations were attacked during the Easter Rising.

The Royal Irish Constabulary was disbanded and replaced with the Civic Guards, later named An Garda Siochana. An Garda Siochana are the national police force of the Republic of Ireland.

Any recommendations of histories of the conflict(s)?

Osprey titles:

Easter Rising:

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The Anglo-Irish War: The Troubles of 1913-1922:

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The Civil War 1922-1923:

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Osprey Irish Volunteer Soldier 1913 – 1923

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Others:

THE IRISH WAR OF INDEPENDENCE – Michael Hopkinson

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THE I.R.A. AT WAR 1916-1923 – Peter Hart

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The I.R.A. and Its Enemies – Peter Hart

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PERSONAL ACCOUNTS:

GUERRILLA DAYS IN IRELAND, Tom Barry, Anvil Books
RAIDS AND RALLIES, Ernie O'Malley
ON ANOTHER MAN'S WOUND, Ernie O'Malley
THE SINGING FLAME, Ernie O'Malley
MY FIGHT FOR IRISH FREEDOM, Dan Breen
TOWARDS IRELAND FREE, Liam Deasy
BRITISH VOICES FROM THE IRISH WAR OF INDEPENDENCE William Sheehan
COMRADES: INSIDE THE IRISH WAR OF INDEPENDENCE Annie Ryan

The personal accounts in many cases are certainly excessively Nationalistic/ anti-British, but good reads nonetheless. The Sheehan book is outstanding.

HISTORIES

POLICE CASUALTIES IN IRELAND 1919-1922, Richard Abbott
THE BLACK AND TANS, Richard Bennett
TANS, TERROR AND TROUBLES – KERRY'S REAL FIGHTING STORY 1913-1923, T Ryle Dwyer,
FIGHTING FOR DUBLIN – William Sheehan

If I had to pick one of the histories, start with Hopkinson. Very balanced. Abbot's book, unfortunately, is very hard to get.

If you need some visual inspiration, here are some films for you:

The Wind that Shakes the Barley (2006)
Michael Collins (1991)
Ryan's Daughter (1963)
The Informer (1935)

thank you

I second "The wind that shakes the barley". Just watched it the other day, very good movie.

If you can find a copy of Leo Cronin's "Black and Tan War" rules they have a great amount of information on uniforms, organizations and weapons for the different combatants.

See link from a discussion on TMP:

TMP link

he late Kenneth Grifiths made two documentaries one called Curious Journey interviewed IRA Volunteers and is available in book form. The other was called 'Hang Out Your Brightest Colour' and was about Michael Collins and is also in print.

Hi Oh , thanks for the "Curious Journey" tip, just been on Amazon and found copies for sale, oredered one and look forward to a good read. Not a title I've heard of before, so God bless TMP!

Good man, Gallowglass. Ernie O'Malley is a great read. Dan Breen's book was ghost-writen, though. O'Malley describes some interesting elements re: uniforms. Most of the flying column men wore bits of uniform, more so than vollies who were yet unknown to the Brits. He writes that "all wore riding breeches" and the men of the South Tipperary column in the field wore "Hats with turned up sides and turned down brims" in imitation of the Boers and "a few had uniform caps" meaning the Irish Volunteer cap that in almost all respects but color was the British 1902 SD cap. "some…wore green-grey uniform" and this is borne out in photos, but as Gallowglass wrote, it was not the norm. As a result of this attempt to uniform, column men were often mistaken for Tans (Auxies, really) who also sported a hodge podge of uniform and equipment. After the Macroom raid (I think it was, anyway) the column gained a good deal of gear including Brodie helmets. O'Malley writes that they painted them green and wore them in the field! Those that wore no official uniform had a type of uniform. Charles Dalton in his book With the Dublin Brigade wrote of the almost uniform wearing of the "broad black brimmer" amongst the Dublin Active Service Unit.

Sort of on the subject, I'd love to see a 28mm fig of a civilian with tweed cap riding a bicycle. Its very Irish. Put a rifle on his back and he's a despatch rider. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

Sort of on the subject, I'd love to see a 28mm fig of a civilian with tweed cap riding a bicycle. Its very Irish. Put a rifle on his back and he's a despatch rider. Anyway, thats my 2 cents. Musketeer fellas?

For a bicycle rider, there's one in the West Wind French Civillians pack that could work with a bit of green stuff converting the beret into a tweed cap.

Dualer you welcome. Kenneth was a decent old lad and his Collins film was banned for years in the UK. God rest his soul.

Another decent but not well known book was written by Cmdt Whitmore Brennan look out for it. Its an eye opener on who killed Collins but has lots of good detail as the author fought from '16 to the Treaty.

Sort of on the subject, I'd love to see a 28mm fig of a civilian with tweed cap riding a bicycle. Its very Irish. Put a rifle on his back and he's a despatch rider.

No, put a rifle on his back and he's dead or captured. There's a reason the Cumann na mBan typically operated as unarmed couriers.

Young men on bicycles with rifles in the Irish countryside would have been a great way to signal the presence of a column and concentrate Crown forces very quickly. Result – dead or captured column.

A prime example of just how dangerous it was for a column to remain in any location for any period of time was the Clonmunt engagement.

In January 1921, the East Cork column, under Commandant Diarmuid O'Hurley, took possession of an old farmhouse close to the quiet village of Clonmult. Twenty men were chosen by O'Hurley and his officers for a number of planned operations and the house and farm were to be used as training and living quarters by the Column. However, the men of the 4th battalion had become overconfident and had fallen into a traceable routine. They were unaware that the Column had been located by the intelligence officer of the Hampshire Regiment.

On the afternoon of 20 February, two Volunteers filling water bottles at the farm's well spotted a detachment from the Hampshires surrounding the house. They immediately drew their revolvers and fought their way back into the house but both were hit a number of times and later died. (Note – even sentries at an IRA "basecamp' were not armed with rifles, even though they may have been available. Think about why that's the case) The remainder of the Column, realising that escape was unlikely, made the decision to try hold out as long as possible while a others attempted to break out and return with reinforcements.

Five men, led by the acting 0/C Jack O'Connell, made a desperate sortie from the cottage but were cut down. Only O'Connell succeeded in breaking out of the encirclement and frantically tried to organise reinforcements for the trapped Column. He contacted three local Volunteers, one of whom raced to Conna his bicycle, some six miles from Clonmult, where the North East Cork Column was located. The North East Cork Column at once set out, but the six-mile journey by foot meant that they were too late arriving at Clonmult.

After an hour, the Hampshires were reinforced by two lorryloads of R.I.C. and A.D.R.I.C. (maybe 25-30 men). After a two-hour fight the thatch on the cottage was set alight by one of the Hampshire officers. With a blazing roof over their heads, the trapped Volunteers desperately made a narrow breach in the gable. Two Volunteers tried to force their way out of the opening but were shot immediately. With no other means of escape possible, the trapped Column had no option but to surrender. Before leaving the house, they (claim to have)destroyed their rifles.

The first seven Volunteers to emerge were immediately shot at point blank range by the waiting policemen. Another wounded Volunteer had lapsed into unconsciousness prior to the surrender and was being removed from the house by three comrades. The action saved their lives as it gave a Hampshire officer time to get the policemen under control before the other prisoners emerged from the blazing house. Twelve Volunteers were dead and the rest were prisioners, two of whom were later executed on 5 May 1921. The Crown forces later alleged that they had been fired on from the house as they went to take the surrendering Volunteers prisoner.

It was believed that the men at Clonmult were given away by an informer. Several locals were court-martialled by the I.R.A. and executed.

I very much doubt that many Crown troops (whether soldiers or police) ever saw an armed Volunteer outside of an actual engagement. A bit like the vast majority of US troops in Arizona or New Mexico never really getting a good look at an Apache. Young men pedalling around the place with rifles would have led to the Column and themselves being located very quickly. As Clonmult showed, any bit of sloppiness by the IRA was swiftly punished. Just like Indians in North America, IRA losses in men and material represented a blow to local fighting strength out of all proportion to the paper numbers.

The best 1916 book in my eyes is Brian Barton and Michael Foy's Easter Rising. Paired with Max Caulfield's Easter Rising book and you've got the story.

True enough, Gallowglass, but what appears on the wargame table is always a bit of a cartoon version of the reality. Perhaps the man on the bike is from 1915, or maybe he is spreading word about the Truce (la)! The story you recount points to a few main issues with the Irish Volunteers/IRA: 1. the larger the column/ASU the easier it was to run to ground (Tourmakeady in Mayo is another example, as is Crossbarry in West Cork- even if they got away) 2. Even a flying column of men on the run for a year or so still lacked the skill of a trained army 3. Informers and touts were everywhere -even in strongly Republican areas. Bob-and-his-dog has the right idea for this armed/unarmed thing, but I could in no way afford to have armed and unarmed versions of every fig. Wish I could, though.

Any Gaelic speakers willing to advise me on the correct pronunciation of "Cumann na mBan"? Ta!

"Kumin naBa -n" though in some parts the B sounds V like. A bit like "Kumin na bVa n"
Now then, which Copplestone fig looks most like a good Cumman girl? "Lady Archeaologists" are good, but "Bolshevik Heronies" ae cooler! They need frumpier hat, though.

Any Gaelic speakers willing to advise me on the correct pronunciation of "Cumann na mBan"?

Purely in the interest of cultural, linguistic and legal clarity, you might note that the language to which you refer is in fact correctly called "Irish", or "Gaeilge", not "Gaelic". I would direct you to articles 4 and 8 of Bunreacht na hEireann (the Irish Constitution) as the basis for the previous statement.

As to the correct pronunciation of the name "Cumann na mBan", it is generally pronounced as

Kum-UHN nuh Mon

"Kumin naBa -n" though in some parts the B sounds V like. A bit like "Kumin na bVa n"

I have a few issues with your pronunciation there, I'm afraid.

"Cumann na mBan" means approximately "The Women's Group" or the "Women's Club" or organisation or what have you. The Irish word for women (pl.) is "mná" (pronounced 'mnaw')- the Irish word for a woman (sing.) is "bean" (pronounced "ban", as in "smoking ban").

The only place you will encounter the sounds represented by "na bVa n" or anything like it is in fact when referring to the singular person, as in the Irish for "my wife". The word for "wife" is in fact two words – "bean chéile". The possessive tense (ie. my wife) renders it as "mo bhean chéile" – "muh van kay-leh", which literally means "my woman together".

As someone recently bitten by the bug to learn some Irish, in hopes of spending time in the island, I much appreciate these posts. It seems quite different from the Scots Gaelic I have some familiarity with. More standardized. I've been scouting for some books to work with. And I listen intently to the sounds in Irish-language songs.

In response to, "Now then, which Copplestone fig looks most like a good Cumman girl? "Lady Archeaologists" are good, but "Bolshevik Heronies" ae cooler! They need frumpier hat, though."

Here are my first Irish Volunteers figures for c. 1916:

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The first two are for my wife's personal command figure ("Mary Katherine (Kat, aka Kitty) O'Toole", notorious Galway Fenian sea captain, suspected liquor smuggler and gun runner), who we've decided is a secret Cumann na mBan officer who can produce a uniform of sorts when she wants to. She favors a saffron-colored skirt in one order of dress over of the expected heather green. This figure is from a Pulp Figures policewoman, I think, or it might be Copplestone. Her trousered variant is from Pulp Figure's "She-wolves of the SS" pack, which isn't too bad a type with the right paint.

The male will be my own command figure and is based on a Irish Volunteer uniform as per 1915 strictures, with full facings and the original patent leather still on the cap. I believe this is a Musketeer miniature, possibly from the fictional 1930s British Civil War range, or it kight be from their Irish wars series.

I'm gathering a big collection of various gangsters, Boers, British regulars, IRC types, auxilliaries, etc. to be used for these conflicts, I've only just begun to organize, research, and paint. Expect to play in a large skirmish game this weekend.

I've been scouting for some books to work with. And I listen intently to the sounds in Irish-language songs.

Check your PM inbox.

Oh, thanks! Will do so.
I'm puzzled by how Gaeilge (and how is *that* pronounced? Gay-ILL-juh?) came to look so phonetically strange (to English-Romance language eyes). It was set in the Roman alphabet from the written beginning, right? So how did so many odd-looking (to us) vowel combinations and bizarre consonant structures come to be introduced? Wouldn't the original creators of the written form, who presumably were bilingual with English or a Romance language, use familiar phonetic forms?

Gaeilge (and how is *that* pronounced?

"Gwail-geh", with slightly more emphasis on the first syllable.

I don't really want to turn this thread into something about the Irish language – maybe a thread should be started on the Language Board (under TMP Plus)?

That sounds wise. I'll put further postings related only to language there.

I found a booklet about a rural IRA unit which I gave to Alan Warren (Of Warren & Pell Publishing) the photo of the platoon-sized unit was interesting. Only a couple had SMLEs, the rest had farmer's rifles (Kind of like old west carbines) or shotguns

There are 2 great books by Morgan Llywelyn, 1916 and 1921,that deal with this. 1916 is about the Easter Rising, and 1921 is about the Irish Civil War.
Both books are historical fiction, but give you a real feel for the times. Uniforms, or lack there of, are given detailed descriptions. Also a lot of info on the weapons and explosives used, as well as vehicles.
These 2 books, part of a larger series, are excellent. Although the main characters are fictional, they interact with historical people and places. a must-read for anyone interested in this era. Yu can also learn some real Irish!
Shawn

Only a couple had SMLEs, the rest had farmer's rifles (Kind of like old west carbines) or shotguns

The "carbines" were possibly Martini-Metfords. Those were pretty much standard RIC issue prior to the upgunning of the force with SMLEs as hostilities intensified.

Shotguns were a very, very common IRA weapon. This very much holds true when you think of Tom Barry's statement that "There are no bad shots at fifteen yards".