"WARNING: Black Tree Design " Topic

I just wanted to post a warning to people thinking of buying from BTD, in my opinion they have horrible customer service.
On January 3rd I place a $150 order thru their website from supposedly their american contact/supplier. 10 days go buy and the order doesnt arrive, so I send emails. After no respose I send 2 more emails telling them to cancel the order and credit my credit card because I had given up on them and bought the product elsewhere. After another week I finally get a response from them saying the order went out the 19th (16 days after I placed the order and a few days after my emails asking them to cancel it).
A month goes by and I have not yet recieved it yet, I ask them to track it and to credit my card when I get it and send it back. After a few emails I get a response from them they are sorry and when it arrives they will credit it that day and for me to send it back.
As another month goes by I send them 3 more emails asking about tracking and saying it hadnt arrived yet, no responce. Finally it shows up a couple days ago, 2 and half months after I ordered it and it is missing some of the order. They still are ignoring all of my emails and it looks like their word of crediting me as I send it back isnt going to happen.
So here it is, they take 16 days before they send an order out, ignore requests of canceling an order and send it out anyways, take 70 days for your order to arrive, take minimum of week or two to answer emails, make promises they wont keep, not completly fill your order correctly and ignore you completly.
So I would not suggest ordering from them unless you want horrible service, 2+ month wait for your order, and ignoring you when there is a problem. Buyers beware.

Darn, I was really looking forward to getting some of their WWII US infantry, you know, the ones with flower pots for helmets : )

Oh well, I'm a BTD fanboy, I'll bite (and ignore the fact you cannot spell_words_in_the_correct_way)
Seems you ordered in the 'sale rush' - hmm, there you go. bummer. I'll still buy :) as I HATE GW, arf.
Seriously - not my place to be replying to this - but in my experience I always found BTD to be very good.

I have never had a problem with them personally, but maybe they just can't deal with the extra work load they promote.

Not being able to meet the demand is almost worse than having no custom at all, at least you don't have any bad customer service records with no customers :)

If there's ever a problem with an order involving a CC purchase, if the situation isn't resolved after the initial communication with the company in question - YOU CALL THE CREDIT CARD COMPANY AND FLAG THE CHARGE! With disputed charges the cc company gives their customer the benefit of the doubt and - as long as you return/refuse the order if/when it ever shows up - you don't have to pay. SIMPLE.

Maybe the answer for them would be to do what the USPS allegedly does during its peak season, utilize temporary help to meet increased demand/work load. Not that it seems to make the mail move any faster when you are waiting for that tax-refund.

"10 days go buy and the order doesnt arrive, so I send emails."

Hmm, 10 days. That's 8 working days. So you think you should have your product from the UK to the US in 8 days?

I think I see the REAL problem here! Your moniker fits perfectly...

I believe in standing up for whats good and shouting at whats bad. In this case,I have had a number of dealings with BTD & have never had much problem.

My last order (sent in during the last big Sale) arrived in goodtime but missing a few parts. A couple of emails & it was more than justly corrected.

It does seem that BTD have had some problems in the lst few months, but I am certainly still planning to do much business with them inthe future myself.

Altfritz,

8-10 days is a perfectly reasonable time for a UK package to reach the eastern US. Foundry sends me packages in that time, so does Gripping Beast. And those companies manage to reply to their customers when emailed. I ordered my BTD figures on Jan. 30th, and I'm still waiting...

I believe that a week or two ago Jenn from Black Tree actually came on and said that they had hired new staff and due to this orders had unfortunately been sent by surface mail instead of air mail and I am sorry to say that as we all know you have no control over the post offices in any country once you have posted something. so why can't people back off a little??

Hmm. I have not ordered from them, but I think in this instance the service was terrible! I would make the same post if I went through this! Even surface mail shoul dnot take 70 days... Also, e-mail should be answered. It is easy.

keeperbear gets an 'A' for the day for predicting the backlash. Only on the internet could a consumer that gets bad service get gang beaten for vocalizing his complaints while the company gets martyred.

Yes we have no control over the postal services....could be the folks that made the movie Men In Black II were telling the truth; they're all aliens. I get great pleasure out of reminding my brother of this scene as he works for the USPS.

I have ordered direct from BTD (I live in the USA) 4 or 5 times now. The only time I had any difficulty was with my latest order in January - it just arrived 3 days ago. Nothing was missing from the order and it had been sent surface mail by mistake. No biggie; I had plenty of other lead to paint in the meantime. I may think twice about ordering direct from them in the future, but will certainly continue to buy their minis.

Note for Underdog: Your posts have been deleted, as there is a rule at TMP against name-calling. Since you have no email address on file at TMP, I am posting this message here.

So let's take the slow-delivery issue off the table, as Black Tree is on record regarding that (temporary) problem. The remaining issues are:

* failure to cancel order when requested

* failure to respond to email

* resolution of problem with shipped partial order that was supposed to be canceled

Have I got that right?

I hate to say it but I am still waiting on an order placed
around the same time and I have gotten no reply to any of the e-mails I sent either.

Orders I have placed to The Assault Group and em4 Miniatures after that date have arrived already.(em4 arrived a couple of weeks ago).

I realize that they are swamped by the volume that their sales produce but not replying to customer inquiries is very bad service.

I ordered a few months ago through the US distributer and was told that due to the sales backlog I should plan on about 6 weeks for delivery. The figures arrived in 4. That has been my only experience with them to date.

The credit card has been credited back the $150.00 and Madzerker can keep the miniatures. Oh yeah Editor if name calling is against the rules why isn't Keeper Bears post been deleted as he clearly name calls.

Emails are STILL a problem as we are getting them, ( we think ) but are not able to answer from the same computer, we print and move them over to another machine. Its a mess.

Anyone who had an order sent surface are able to have the next order airmail and post free if they call us.

We are defended by others because the vast majority dont have a problem. 400,000 miniatures sent out this year so far and several new staff employed. We had a new staff member send parcels surface instead of airmail and people cant take the appology given, what else do you want.

Jen
BTD

Oh yes. we are up to date again and normal mail order service is resumed thanks to the VAST majority for your patience. If your order isnt with you its because its in the post.

Mr NICE

Bill:

If it were a US company, you could add:

- Violation of the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule: failure to ship goods within the time advertised. BTD's e-mail order confirmations state that the order will be shipped within two days. Several TMPer complaints indicate otherwise.

- Violation of the Fair Credit Billing Act: charges that list the wrong amount. BTD's e-mail order confirmations give the total price in USD to US customers. At least on TMPer has noted that a different charge has appeared on the credit card statement.

But if it *were* a US company, those violations could be reported to the FTC.

Some of these would also be violations of a typical credit card processing agreement, if in the US, and would get the merchant in hot water with his merchant services provider. Someone else would have to advise whether UK merchant services agreements have the same provisions.

Allen

BTD,
I guess we want you to take the high road. Every company has fanboys. It never fails to amaze me the number of e-mail problems that get resolved on the TMP.

CC

I've ordered from BTD and had good service with prompt delivery and no missing bits. The only problem was a misdescription of a pack of models as "Waffen-SS Snipers (7)" when the pack contents were really 3 W-SS snipers and 4 Army snipers. No biggie really.

But Jen, Jen, Jen... remember the first rule of customer service! A much better response would have been to express sincere regrets at Madzerker's experience and assure everyone that it had been taken care of and he was getting the models for free. It's fine to say that you have a "mess" but you have to at least say you're working hard on a solution! Anything less and you are losing the confidence of consumers!

Your aggressive response "what else do you want" doesn't give me a warm feeling. The obvious answer to the question "what else do you want" is "better service" and that's not a message you want reinforced.

As far as name-calling by Keeperbear, calling BTD "a total bunch of muppets" just made me laugh! Getting bent out of shape about that comment just makes you look petty.

I like BTD, I like your models. You needed some help on that communication though. You have to realize that with "BTD" in the subject line EVERY SINGLE PERSON on these boards who has bought from or ever considered buying from you will read the posts. As the lawyers say, "Kindly govern your actions accordingly" -- you had a chance to leave a positive impression of BTD in your post, you blew it.

Regards,

w.
ps, will consult for lead.

Dear All
I do sincerely apologise for all the bad feelings, inconviences and problems that have been caused of late due to the mistake in posting and the computer problems. All of the problems have been sorted out except the computer one which we are working on as we speak. We are back to normal. I also apologise for some of the things said in the last post unfortunately sometimes my pregnancy hormones go into overdrive. I thank everyone who has bought from us in the past for their understanding and patience during this time.

Jenn

What a load of rubbish, so they answer but you dont like the tone. Just looks like a bunch of people tired of answering the same question again and again to me.

This place is going way down hill, its no wonder that you dont get 95% of the industry to even answer here.

I am a miniatures "FAN" (the term "fan boy" is offensive, i havent been a "boy" for many a year) all companies, all countries. I order from BTD, Old Glory, Reaper, GW, Newwave (shudder) and others...

All I have to say is BTD has never messed up any of my (many) orders and all have arrived in a timely fashion.

AS WITH ANY SERVICE OR PRODUCT "YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY"

Don't like the service dont buy from them, dont carry out vendettas, it is childish.

As for BTD possible being a little peeved in their responses I cant blame them.. here they are trying to provide a quality product, in a niche industry, at what I would guess are crappy margins, in what I would probably consider a labor of love. What do they get? Ganged up on in public forum . . .

Come on guys be grateful they even exist, I for one would not want the perception of BTD as a poor company, make a reality of it. I have seen too many of my favorite miniatures companies go out of business.. I for one dont want some impatient, instant gratification seeking people, spreading stories that BTD can't fill orders, or have poor customer service. I would venture to say that for every complaint there hundreds many more orders that went without a hitch.

BTD: keep up the good work, dont let the muckrakers get you down.

~Josh "Sentinel"

Regarding customer service, they just gave Madzerker $150 worth of miniatures for crissakes! GW once made me wait for almost six months for an order and all I got was a lousy White Dwarf magazine and a rant from a redshirt that I really should buy their new box for a bazillion bucks...

[Oh yeah Editor if name calling is against the rules why isn't Keeper Bears post been deleted as he clearly name calls.]

Sorry, I didn't spot it. The post is now deleted.

The one thing that stands out in my mind though is the fact that BTD ignored pleas to credit the card back for almost 3 months. As soon as they received negative feedback on such a high profile forum they were quick to respond and provide the credit.

I'm all for BTD being in business. But c'mon. Bad customer service is simply bad customer service. Personally I don't understand why they continue to have computer problems (allegedly) and place the blame on a box with wires. As a consumer I don't care what the "excuses" are for the bad service - I just want the service fixed. Plain and simple.

I have to agree with you Wehrmacht. I work for the department of Customer Service for a large City. We have Customers (tax payers) who expect everything for nothing. My employees and I have gotten yelled at, money thrown at us,and had customers break down crying.We would never tell a customer, "cant take the appology given,what more do you want?". The post here are nothing in comparison to what I have experience in the last two years here at the city.
Your comments are the face of you company. I am sure that you feel frustrated about some of the post, but every company must rise above it all. When a company rises above it all, it gives confidences to those who hear about you company for the first time.

My Two Cents.

I too have been waiting for several months...E-mails get answered, so I've resigned myself to wait.

Love their product, might order some Zulus if my package arrives soon.

[This place is going way down hill, its no wonder that you don't get 95% of the industry to even answer here.]

Which companies don't respond? Seems like there's actually been a high response rate.

As for "going way down hill," it's entirely the opposite - TMP has had a leap in readers over the past few weeks. The website is more popular now than it's ever been.

I have to say that I have been well pleased with BTD. At the same time, I know how it can leave a bad taste in your mouth when you have a problem. Espescially when it's your first order. I placed an order with a company that is usually held in high regards, and never got it. I never had any responses to email, though when I finally placed a complaint with PayPal (through which I had paid) I recieved my refund.

I have never ordered from that store again, though I have heard of several people that have, and have not had a problem.

It's hard to have 100% customer satisfaction(probably impossible), but at least BTD tried to make good on their error. A lot of people would not even do that much.

[All of the problems have been sorted out except the computer one which we are working on as we speak.]

If you need more help with that, just let us know. I'm sure there are some tech-savvy TMP'ers who would be glad to drop in and help.

Yeah... Having the ability to use email tools properly would be integral to a mail order outfit *ducks*

RoosterMan,
I totally agree.

Sentinel,
telling others about bad service isn't a vendetta it's word of mouth. Had Madzerker lied or otherwise exageratted his claim then it would be a vendetta. I'm curious to know if this forum is the first place in which Madzerker was notified that the problem was taken care of. I do respect BTD for fixing things in such a generous way.

Underdog,
What question were they tired of answering? If this "place" is in such bad shape why do bother posting?

CC

I find it extremely funny that my post got deleted. I was offering a valid customer opinion about poor service from BTD. I still have copies of all my email correspondence regarding my complaints with BTD, along with their replies. This is factual evidence that can't be 'explained away' by them or their supporters.

It is reassuring to see that they continue to offer all kinds of excuses for poor service. It just makes me laugh out loud like Kermit the frog (i.e. the frog who is a Muppet).

"8-10 days is a perfectly reasonable time for a UK package to reach the eastern US."

Agreed. That is an appropriate amount of time in transit. However, that assumes that 1) the parcel went out the same day or the next day, and 2) that there were no hiccups in the mail service. I have had parcels take that time, but some also take longer. If the parcel is examined by customs it takes even longer.

My point is that to EXPECT the parcel on your doorstep 8-10 days after an order is unreasonable. To COMPLAIN that said parcel is not on your doorstep 8-10 days after ordering is worst than unreasonable. To cancel the order because of the above, well, I'm not going to say what I think about that...

Geeze louise! I guess some folks think that this stuff either grows on trees, and you just go out and pluck off what you need, or the Keebler Elves are moonlighting.

Give it a rest! Last time I looked, the transporter room was still being completed. And mail service around the world still suxs like a hoover on overdrive! Oi!

Companies that have less that 1 employees, have computers. If they have computers, they have problems. Don't tell me your computer is so perfect that it NEVER hick-upped, or locked -up or anything. Well, ok. Only if you buy the latest and greatest every week. In which case, why don't you just buy the company and hire 1000 people to run it, all for your little self. :-)

(This portion of my post was edited by me..........)

Obviously, if your email is not getting answered, then there must be something wrong. (Here comes the sarcasm) Not sure, but I think there is a new device on the market......it's called a......TELEPHONE! If you're that bent out of shape over a credit card charge, one would think that you'd want to "CALL" the company BEFORE you bash them into oblivion. If you get to speak with a human, then perhaps, can't guarantee, but maybe the problem would be solved on a more civil manner.

If there is a REAL problem, and it absolutely cannot be resolved, then and ONLY then should someone post, "These are bad people, they took my......" Slamming someone for the sake of slamming is just not kool! Get all of your facts together, before you point your figure, er....I mean finger.

Wanna nuke someone.....play Nuke War!

Hey, Underdog, my Platoon Sgt told me one day, when I was stressing about an inspection, "Take a chill pill and ride the ******* waves, baby!"

You go BTD! Do the best job you can. Life is like a military operation. Treat it as such. "BRAVO TANGO DELTA move to phase line Foxtrot. Move now! Move now! Out.

Underdog - In the business world you just can't be snarky with complainers. Trust me, I've been suspended by my company for that behavior.

Based on just this thread I would take away a bad first impression of BTD (It's not my first impression)

Oh, and underdog, when did 95% of the industry regularily post here?

I agree about customer service. Recently, I had some Magic auctions where I shipped the wrong cards (some overseas even), and when I realised this, I gave FULL refunds and allowed the people to keep the cards. It was a very small hit to take in order to maintain my perfect trade rating on Ebay. I screwed up, and I knew it! I got Positive feedback from both people.

evill1000, what does poor spelling or grammar have to do with his experience? And, why is it your business. Did you get the gist of his message...apparently so, because you were able to say you didn't care. If someone types enough to convey a message that can be understood, I don't know why people get off on pointing out every little foible. Bad spelling doesn't bother me, feeling the need to put someone down does.

[I find it extremely funny that my post got deleted.]

Well, in a week or two, I'll be able to edit the objectionable items. Right now, my options are nuke or not to nuke.

And the rule *is* no name calling...

I think it's commendable that Jenn came here to talk things out with Madzerker and everyone else. Say whatever else you like, that takes maturity and courage and I respect it. Would that a number of other companies were as forthcoming.

Mdlmaker makes the same point -I- would make about this-- in this world of Cyber Geeks, we must remember that E-mail is a quirky thing which may or may not be reliable. Many things could happen to the post, on either end or in between. And apart from it not being "bounced", we can never be sure it was delivered/read/not deleted, etc. So a phone call is always in order, folks, even if it costs you a dollar or so to make it. At least then you KNOW they are aware of the problem!

Oh, and for the record, I am a firm believer in BTD, having ordered many times without problems. At the same time, I am not taking Madzerker to task for airing his complaints here. That's one of the things TMP is great for, and it always seems to help.

Jerry

Perhaps if BTD hadn't bought the "receive only" version of the Tovaritch Two computer system during the Sov-Blok clearance sale they wouldn't have to print e-mailS from one computer and carry them over to another to do whatever it is that they then do with them.

Sorry to seem cranky but I didn't know that one and one half months with no product and no communication was "instant gratification".

Have a good one,

Pat

@ BTD,

If you have to print an email then walk it over to another computer... why don't you just check email from the other computer? Or, why don't you reinstall your software so that perhaps the "reply" button works? Or, you could always buy a new computer. I see that Dell has some killer deals on PCs - and with the value of the dollar, it'd be a steal.

""10 days go buy and the order doesnt arrive, so I send emails."

Hmm, 10 days. That's 8 working days. So you think you should have your product from the UK to the US in 8 days?

I think I see the REAL problem here! Your moniker fits perfectly..."

The reason at first I expected it that fast is because I had picked the USA option and it said the US representative was taking care of it. I assumed it was coming from the US, I didnt even know BTD was in UK at that time. That isnt the point though, the reason I complained is not because of that. In fact I would not have complained about ANY of this stuff if my emails were not ignored the last couple of weeks. In my emails I kept asking them to respond to me, I even warned them at one if I didnt get a response at least I was charging back my CC and posting on TMP. Ironically the day I was going to issue the charge back the minis arrived, but they still would not respond to me.

Also, they never once let me know that they had an employee send the stuff accidently surface, or that they had any email problems, or anything. I had almost zero communication at all. That is why I finally made the complaint, as you can see I waited a long time and alot of things happened before I complained, I like to be fair to the company.

Jennifer, I do appreciate you taking care of this now, I am not trying to get anything for free. Once I verify that my credit card has been credited, I would be more then happy to send the miniatures back, I appreciate the generous offer though. If you had just let me know what the problems were, or just responded in any form I would not be so upset about this. Thank you for taking care of it now.

"We had a new staff member send parcels surface instead of airmail and people cant take the appology given, what else do you want"
This post is the first apology I have recieved about this besides one of the two emails I have recieved in the last 2 and half months. (the email said "Sorry it hasnt arrived yet").

"I'm curious to know if this forum is the first place in which Madzerker was notified that the problem was taken care of."

Yes it is, I have still not even recieved an email today from them. Like I said though, if I can confirm that my card is credited I will send the product back, I am not looking for a free lunch, just response.

BTD UK,

I spend what I consider to be a moderate amount of money(~$60 USD) on miniatures each month. While I have never ordered from you in the past, I do appreciate the quality your miniatures to the point that I would have eventually ordered something from you in the future.

However, after seeing Jenn's response to what appeared to be a legitimate concern with BTD service, I WILL NEVER ORDER FROM YOU! In case you did not get that, YOU WILL NEVER RECEIVE ANY MONEY FROM ME! I have zero tolerance for companies treating customers like Jenn did. You seem to forget that you are only in business because people like Madzerker, myself, and others give you money in exchange for a product. It is neither my nor any other consumer's fault that BTD suffers from training and/or technical and/or medical hormone issues. To make excuses and snarky comments when someone posts a legitimate concern is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE.

Here's some free advice on acceptable customer service - Regardless of where the blame lies, take OWNERSHIP of the problem, and see it through to RESOLUTION. Making excuses and phony apologies(I'm sorry you didn't like the fact that our email is down, but...) will at best ensure that the person never orders from you again, and at worst, you'll see your name posted on TMP with a big WARNING label next to it.

I'll step off the soapbox for now....

- mau10man