"Why does US Army wear flag "backwards"?" Topic

I've recently noticed uniformed US Army personnel wearing the US flag on their right arm, but backwards, with the blue square on the right of the flag instead of the left as it's usually portrayed. Why is this?

Because when you are moving forward it is the direction the flag would fly in the wind. If it were displayed the the "forward way" it would look like you are retreating.

It shows them moving "forward".

makes sense, thanks

Wondered that myself, Nils…

Doesn't make sense to me, but thanks for the clarification anyway.

Don't feel like you were the only ones needing clarification. When it was introduced several years ago, there were a lot folks in the Army (senior ranks too) asking the same thing.

My two questions are

1) why the right arm?

2) why does such a Franco-phobic organization dress it's personnel in berets?

It used to be that the berets were reserved for elite units – airborne, rangers and special forces. Then some nitwit in the Clinton-era Pentagon got the bright idea that it would raise morale if everyone wore a beret. So they took the black ranger beret and gave it to everyone! Oddly, it not only didn't raise morale, but lowered morale in elite units.

Berets for everyone! Now we're all special!

Maybe someone in the administration is a wargamer. You know how we always build oversized elite formations first anyway.

2) why does such a Franco-phobic organization dress it's personnel in berets?

LOL!

Maybe someone in the administration is a wargamer. You know how we always build oversized elite formations first anyway.

Double LOL!

"Berets for everyone! Now we're all special!"

That's about it, darth!

Sad. Those guys earned the right to wear those berets… Not everybody has the mettle to be an elite. They should be special.

Either way, I think anybody who wears the uniform is courageous.
For all of them, for all nations… Now and in the past… For you…

Hi

It was early 80s and there were TWO directives, wearing beret for all, and not wearing the awards. Partly driven by the fact that by then a large percentage of officers had not seen combat.

Rocky

The black beret was issued to all troops on the Army's birthday in June, 2001 based on the Chief of Staff's orders that were issued in the fall of 2000. I was in the army in the early '80s ('83 – '91) and we did not have berets – only the elites wore them then. I have seen a Military Times article talking about everyone wearing the beret in the 1970s, but I'd never heard of that before that article.

I don't suppose anyone could actually CHECK THEIR FACTS?!?!?

I was wearing a black beret, officially and with full authorization, before Rangers were first authorized theirs in 1975. I continued to wear one until they were taken away from tankers in 1979. I hope it's real hot where Bernie Rogers is now.

The black beret was instituted as the headgear for all in June 2001. You can look up who was President then, if you think that matters; but it wasn't the '80s, and it wasn't President Clinton. If the war heroes serving in the administration then had wanted to reverse Shinseki's decision (and you may recall they didn't listen to him at all on important matters), they could have done so.

But if you want to pin it on someone, pin it on Shinseki, an Airborne Ranger. Here's the history:

link

Not wearing *what* awards?

Allen

Allen, see my above post – the beret was issued in 2001 – based on orders issued before November 2000 (when the election took place and well before the new president took office). Oh, and I did look it up to make sure my faulty memory was correct. :o)

It was a CSA decision. Don't blame it on the president. If you want to blame something on a president and his political cronies, try the bad call on how many troops it would take to secure Iraq; Shinseki got it right, which Abizaid confirmed years later.

And before insinuating political crap based on what administration it was, look up Shinseki's combat record and why he's missing some toes.

Allen

I didn't blame anything on the president – but he does appoint the chiefs of staff. I recognized that it was a CSA decision in my post above. And I disagree with the decision, regardless who made it, what his record is or why. Just because he's a combat veteran doesn't mean every decision he makes is a good one. IMO, the elites deserve to be recognized in a unique way – and giving the beret to everybody took that away from them to a certain extent.

And without getting political, there was a reason that they perceived a need to raise morale – and that was the result of politicians and their cronies.

Me thinks some people have too much time on their hands…..

Well that's what happens when you hurry up, the waiting give people too much time!

"IMO, the elites deserve to be recognized in a unique way…"

Jump wings? Ranger tab?

I came home from jump school with my khakis tucked into my Corcorans. Now that was cool. Much cooler than the current business suit.

Allen

Complete the quote, Allen. :o)

I heard it from a reliable source that Tilley put the bug in Shinseki's ear for the all-black-beret-wearing army. I'm sure it was in good intentions (which we know where that leads sometimes). If true, it shows that Shinseki has a lot of integrity (which he does) by not going public with that info when all the backlash (till this day) surfaced. BTW, I met Tilley several times, once when he was Senior Enlisted Advisor for CENTCOM, prior to him taking over his last job, and I was at a sister Joint Command next door. He's a good guy IMO. Oh, and I wore a maroon beret off and on from the early '80's to the 2001. BTW, support personnel (non-SF qualified) even wore the green beret for awhile when assigned to SF units – first with the candy stripe (cut-down flash) and then full flash – when the SF tab was invented. They now wear maroon berets (and hopefully at least on jump status!). I never cared much for headgear anyway (unless for protection); I grew up in the 70's and long hair was in!

Giving the beret to everyone was no different than taking *away* everyone else's distinctive headgear (including the Airborne beret!) in 1979. We lived through it, even at the same time that we were making a better Army.

The beret was British in origin (not French) and its use by armoured troops in many nations pre-dated its adoption, first unofficially and then officially, by Special Forces in the US. I still think tankers should have first claim to the beret: cavalry (and for my sins, I have my Blackhorse buckle) can wear whatever foolishness makes them feel special.

I'd worry about two uniform issues that seem to me far more important than that:

a) the continued development of the Class As to look even more unsoldierly than before--and that was a tough thing to do. If you don't want soldiers to turn into bureaucrats, don't dress them that way. Give them a sharp uniform to be proud of. The Marines, thankfully, still understand that.

b) the inappropriate wear of combat uniforms as utilities or "walking out" dress. To be a soldier out in the civilian world does not require being able to blend in with the display racks at Wal-Mart. See a) above.

Allen

You're a damn fool if you don't listen to your sergeant major. (Excluding those that are just too old, ROAD, or drunk: we had some of those post-Vietnam…) That wouldn't surprise me about SMA Tilley, since he was a tanker. We're gracious enough to let others wear the beret--as long as you don't take ours!

Allen

Allen:

I was trying to find an online image of it, but I'm sure you remember when females wore that funky black beret with their class As/Bs. Kind of a mushroom top look. Along with that mint green uniform – ouch!

I came home from jump school with my khakis tucked into my Corcorans. Now that was cool. Much cooler than the current business suit.

In '84, one my buddies, an E4, recently graduated from Recondo School on Bragg, caught a MAC flight home for leave wearing khakis tucked into spit-shined jungle boots and a black leather jacket with brass SP4 rank on the collars! I asked him what the AF guys said, he said they told him he looked cool! I last saw him again many years later and he was an SF warrant. Still crazy!

did the flag swap around after 9/11..? i have not looked it up.. sorry.

Oh, lord, that was dreadful. I don't even want to go looking for it!

Allen

I think what this all proves is that the Army should put the uniform back a few years, then stop screwing around with it! What's the point of taking the berets away in '79 only to give them back a couple of years later? Of course, the pinks and greens were classic, but I don't suppose they'd want to go back that far…

Soulman:

Here's some background link Even though I was in when it happened, I had to Google it; I couldn't remember the exact time-frames – I retired in 2008. Oh, and I think that article (2005) was talking about wear on BDUs; since that time the ACUs have been worn – so patches are now Velcro'd on (hook-pile-tape for you jumpmasters). Dean

Nothing to do with 9/11. The flag patch with the canton to the left was last worn on the right shoulder in WWII.

Allen

Dean, that was the change that allowed all soldiers to wear the flag patch at all times, not just when deployed.

Allen

"Of course, the pinks and greens were classic, but I don't suppose they'd want to go back that far…"

Add a Sam Browne belt, and I'm good to go with it!

Allen

Yep, you're right Allen. Disregard that! See I was that ROAD guy when all that stuff was afoot.

Yes … I agree … I think only elite units, like Rangers, SF & ABN should get berets. Heck even if Tankers want black berets … Rangers would wear SAS Tan, like they do now … And yes, Khakis with bloussed Corcorans, Jump wings, glider patch on C-cap … Now that was way cool … Could you wear the Ranger Tab on Khakis ? I know it could not be worn on Blues, so they eventually came out with the pin you could wear on your pocket. We only had Khakis/TWs for a year or 2 before we got the "minty green" shirt … And I agree the mint green shirt makes you look like you work for a Bus line … like Greyhound … And I went to Air Assault School … so I got to wear 2 sets of wings … Yay !!

"The beret was British in origin"

I think it is actually Basque in origin.

Ya know, I could never put my finger on what I didn't like about those green shirts… You're absolutely right! They make you look like a bus driver or something! The old tan shirts looked a whole lot better.

It just occurred to me, I wonder if Rocky is talking about not wearing ribbons on the green shirt. When I was in we couldn't wear our ribbons on the minty green shirt. Now, I see that the Army does wear ribbons on the green shirt.

Ok, I have to ask, what happened to the US Army Class A uniform? Did they get rid of the pickle suit?

Captain Apathy, Sir:

Here are some FAQs about the class As from the Army Homepage army.mil/asu/faq.html

Excerpt from the FAQs:

Q5. What is a Soldier's current Class A Uniform?
A5. From August 2008 to 4th Quarter Fiscal Year 2014, the uniform is in transition to the new blue Army Service Uniform. Therefore, Soldiers can continue to wear Green Class A and the current (old) blue uniform as the new blue Army Service Uniform or transition to the new blue Army Service Uniform when available to Soldiers in Army Military Clothing Sales Stores.

ah, reassuring to know the Army hasn't changed in issuing clear and definitive policy. This definitely will make in-ranks inspections even more enjoyable!

"It just occurred to me, I wonder if Rocky is talking about not wearing ribbons on the green shirt. When I was in we couldn't wear our ribbons on the minty green shirt."

That's true. Didn't have anything to do with officers' experience, though. The damn shirt was too flimsy to have ribbon racks poked through it over and over.

"Now, I see that the Army does wear ribbons on the green shirt."

I don't recall what the fix was.

Here are the new Class As and Bs:

link

Allen

It seems to me that I noticed a plastic card stiffener or something similar.

EGAD! Those are hideous! Dress blues for formal occasions, fine. But this?! Don't they realize the Marines still have greens along with the blues? Or are those going away too?

Yeah … I remember the cardboard or something like that so you could wear your ribbons on Class Bs … which sucked. I can only remember doing that few times in 10 + years on active duty. Being a Grunt who spent most of my time in line battalions, we usually wore the horrible "Fatigues", which had to be starched, then the permenant press, that smelled like "old fish" !! For my first few years on active duty. Thank the Gods we got the BDUs and had the option of wearing OD Jungle Fatigues, Camo Jungle Fatigues (which were great !!) or BDUs … Something about being able to wear the old "jungles" or BDUs … was kind of cool !

So I just checked out the link … so the old Army Dress Greens are out, or will be … and the new Class As is Blue. Based on the uniform from the Revolution … Kind of cool … going back to our "roots" … Thank God we didn't wear Red !

Everyone in the military use to wear the flat top fatigue cap (late fifties/ early sixties (very stiff), until Fidel Castro started wearing it. That was a very cool hat. Bring it back. The Elites can keep their Bonnet's – they do not impress me.

When it comes down to functional, the Patrol Cap or Flop/boonie hat for me …

Here is the ultimate in foolishness… the new Navy Working Uniform (NWU). It is authorized for shipboard use, in lieu of coveralls, and replaces the traditional dungarees.

Just in case, you happen to fall overboard, rest assured, you will NEVER be found!!!!

link

The logic behind the NWU beggars belief. Doing grody stuff on ships can make a uniform look like a ragbag; so we're going to dress you like a ragbag to start, and nobody will notice!

Allen

I don't understand why sailors on a ship need to be camouflaged…

From flags to berets. Talk about a Hijacking a thread.

8)