"WOTR what become of the livery after leader was killed" Topic

I am doing some retinues for bosworth i have got them organised into the main battles NORFOLK,OXFORD,STANLEY etc one thing i am wondering is what happened to the retained men once they lost there lord, Warwick was killed at Barnet,
Would his ragged staff ever appear on the battlefield again?.

Did the men wear the new lords colours?.

Were there men who seeked another lord and still wore there old ones livery as a sign of respect?.

I would expect they kept the livery for the remainder of the campaign but if raised again wore whatever livery their new lord/unit or mercenary captain issued them with.

Remember most WOTR "Campaigns" were very short lengths of time indeed.

Of course the above is only my guesswork.

The livery was the symbol of your employer. You wore his livery and he gave you maintenance (pay, food, clothing -like the livery jacket-, support against local authorities etc.).
So a soldier wearing the livery of a dead lord hasn't found a new employer yet.

Would not the eldest son have inherited the livery, along with lands and the troops?

Livery was just a badge or corporate logo to identify your employees from someone else's employees. Very different from a coat of arms.

the heir would of course inherit the coat of arms. He could adopt his father's livery badge if he chose to, in order to maintain some continuity or he could adopt a new one for his troops to establish a new 'brand identity'.

I pretty sure some of the big lords had a couple of different livery badges they used.

"Would not the eldest son have inherited the livery, along with lands and the troops?"

Yes, of course.
Also some of the "great houses", such as the Percies and the Nevilles had several lords (brothers, cousins etc.) who used the same livery.

There's also the question of attainder; if a lord dies and the heir is effectively disinherited by the victors, then the heir might have to wait quite a while before acquiring the right to the inheritance and all that goes with it. Especially if the heir is a minor. This could happen due to another swing in fortune, or to the victor (eventually) confirming the heir's entitlement, often when reaching majority.

And even then, residual resentments, suspicion and so on would remain, often for generations – for example, Henry VIII and the various Plantagenet sprigs. All very messy, of course, difficult to follow, and yet strangely fascinating at the same time. Which I suppose just about sums up the period…

Liveries and badges sometimes denoted a family (like white and blue livery for the Lancastrian Plantagenets, or white and green for the Tudors) but they often went along with a specific holding. For instance, the bear and ragged staff of Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick was not a Neville badge, but one that came with the Earldom of Warwick; the Beauchamp family used it before Neville did, and the Dudleys used it afterwards in the 16th C. when the earldom passed to them, and so forth. So liveries and badges could often migrate with titles and manors. I suppose that a partisan of some lord from a certain place might find the badge reusable for the next holder, but it's not something that you could count on.

Also it's good to remember that relatively few of the retainers and supporters of any lord would have special livery coats. These probably would only be seen on the members of a lord's "riding retinue", who tended to be his own "court" (personal paid servants and bodyguards)- most other supporters would merely sew a badge on their regular clothes. It would be an easy thing to remove a badge after a campaign or if the lord miscarried, and since most people below the gentry and rich burghers had only a few clothes, this must have happened a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if even defunct liveries weren't "repurposed" (recut and resewn) if they could be.

As for men who served other lords after having lost a previous one- I doubt that the new employer would allow a servant to wear a different lord's livery. These were proud people, and liveries would be the sign of ownership, prestige and power. Wearing another lord's livery (even a dead one) would be insulting, unless the new lord inherited it from the previous one.

Many thanks for the input i must admit i struggle with the history bit and my units are all livered up just so i can tell them apart on the table, it must have been so confusing on the battlefield for the average soldier from what i have read the flags played an important part which combatants would rally around. I would suspect the capturing of flags was not high on the agenda as this could get you killed by your own men. The politics at the time also made it very difficult the slightest mistake like in oxfords case at Barnet could cost you the battle. If you wore full plate with no identifying marks you could get away with fighting both sides if the need arose.

I would suspect the capturing of flags was not high on the agenda as this could get you killed by your own men.

Capturing the flag has traditionally been an activity deemed worthy – I guess the trick to doing it succesfully is not to hold it high once you have managed to grab it. This also makes it more difficult for enemy to figure where it is in order to recapture it.

Battle cries and field slogans were probably very useful for identifying friend from foe on the battlefield, too.

I think the above commentators have the right track about badges being readily removable/replaceable when necessary. Clothing in livery colors would be more problematic, if the livery colors changed abruptly -- but most clothing of the time probably wore out within a year of hard living anyway.
How long do you suppose those woollen jackets and tabards and things lasted after being worn day in and day out in those conditions? Nobles probably had to replace issued livery once or maybe twice a year just to keep up appearances.