"What's the difference between a troll and an ogre?" Topic

Some of my favorite fantasy figures are the old Ral Partha trolls and ogres. VERY nice sculpts, but I will be darned if I can tell the difference between a troll and an ogre.

what is the eal difference? And, I do NOT want some rule book table comparison, but I am afraid that is what I will get.

Trolls are more gangly looking and have more distorted features, ogres are more solidly built.

That is just in looks, Trolls regenerate, which ogres don't. Ogres are also smarter than trolls.

I'd say about 4 or 5 beers.

Trolls have worse breath, too.

An ogre looks like a really tall and muscular man. A troll is monstrous.

trolls post
ogres respond

Well, I was interested enough to read the Wikipedia articles on each. trolls are Scandanavian, ogres originally French. "Troll" seems to cover a bit wider range of beings, often trickier, within Norse mythology. Ogres are more characterized by direct brutality, e.g. in English folk tales.

I think the two words are nearly interchangeable in gaming/fantasy terms.

Maybe they are two different species fighting for the same niche. That's why they are so similiar. We see this in nature as well birds competing for the same food and territory. So they could be different just occuping the same habitat.

"I think the two words are nearly interchangeable in gaming/fantasy terms."

I would completely disagree. As many of the folks above have pointed out the two creatures have always been presented in fantasy as very different and distinct creatures.

Okay, then, tell us the differences.

Without using D&D stats.

As I understand it (from some of the "child's fairy tales" I have read over the years), Trolls were short evil elfish type fairy creatures, members of the evil fairy realms. While Ogres were huge, but still rather human like, brutish man eaters.

6+6 vs 3+1, if I remember correctly.

As a member of the pre-D&D generation, I'd say that nobody really made much of a distinction between trolls and ogres until 1974. If there was any distinction, it was that the word "ogre" brought to mind the trolls of "The Hobbit", and the word "troll" brought to mind the more 2-dimensional monsters of LOTR.

I can remember staring in disbelief at the drawings of the Gygax vision of a troll – scrawny, carrot-nose, and that goofy regeneration thing.

And it wasn't until the very late 70's that troll miniatures looked much different than ogres. I've got a troll from the first Grenadier paper catalog (1975) that is, well, an ogre in 2010 terminology. Of the 4 trolls that Der K made (1974, 1975), only one of them (hill troll) looked even remotely like what a D&D troll looked like. The rest (cave troll, mountain troll, river troll) looked like ogres.

Some of my favorite fantasy figures are the old Ral Partha trolls

They were some of the best ever made, still have most of Mine.

It has already been said here, but in traditional literature a troll was depicted as cunning and dangerous (but generally not destructive – that is a troll might eat you, or it might not, but it might also give you a magical curse of some kind) and an Ogre was depicted as brutish and VERY dangerous (always murderous). One strange trend is that female trolls (some have put forth the theory that Baba Yaga is a troll of sorts) are more often depicted as flesh eaters than male trolls.

In many stories a troll (and often trolls – more than one) could be reasoned with, or out smarted (see The Three Billy Goats Gruff). But an Ogre rarely would take the time to even engage in any sort of dialog with a character. It wasn't until the 20th century that Ogre's in stories began to be more than just a single entity overcome by a powerful warrior figure. I cannot think of a single reference, in classical fairy tales, to a female Ogre.

Game designers have in essence reversed the social behavior of the two monsters in the 20th century, opting for organization (tribal communities) for Ogres and isolation for Trolls (which if you were to look just at Scandinavian folklore would be exactly opposite).

One of the phrases that have always been stuck in my head comes from D&D's little white book "Monsters and Treasure":

"Thin and loathsome, rubbery trolls …"

I think I've always pictured the Tolkien-esque type when thinking of trolls, tall and gangly, grey skin, turn to stone when exposed to day light etc. As for ogres, Clive Barker's Rawhead Rex springs to mind …

In gaming terms, Ogres are most often presented as an intermediate between orcs/goblins and giats, while trolls are less human in appearance and have that whole regeneration thing going on.

I think the myth-based answers above are better, though.

The scrawny looking TSR troll is a direct descendant of the troll from Poul Anderson's book 3 Hearts & 3 Lions.
The way I do it: Trolls are primitive and animalistic. They do not use armor because they can regenerate, but they are harmed by sunlight. They are green in color with pointed ears and large noses. Trolls usually live in a nest dominated by females.
Ogres are primitive, but are capable of some education. They are terribly strong and use armor and weapons if any are available. They are reddish in color, sometimes with pointed ears, sometimes with horns sprouting out of their heads. Sometimes they have two heads. Ogres tend to be loners.

Trolls lurked underneath bridges and demanded tolls (usually from billy goats), ogres raided farms and ate livestock (and sometimes humans).

Paint it flesh colored, it's an ogre, paint it green, it's a troll.

Trolls mainly attack internet message board & forum users, ogres mainly attack command posts and pesky GEV's.

I like the folkloric explanations best. The Wiki articles were both pretty good for Wiki and agrees with what I have picked up elsewhere: Troll was originally an ambiguous term, but in northern Scandinavia seems to be some kind of lesser giant, while in Denmark it relates more to the smaller 'mound-dweller' types.

The ogre is a similar being from continental Europe that serves the same role but is less magical. Tolkien's idea that these terms incorporate a common Indo-European tradition seems plausible.

Pushing things in an even more unlikely direction, what about a residual hominid memory of giant prehistoric apes such as gigantopithecus? Maybe they would occasionaly grab and eat a homo erectus the way a chimp kills and eats monkeys. Sounds next to impossible, but the for the sake of gaming….

In Scandinavian folklore, a troll will turn to stone in direct sunlight. This doesn't seem to be so in fairy-tales, though notably they do tend to dwell in dark places or are encountered at night (the bridge troll, Rumplestiltskin). Some may have magical abilities (Rumplestiltskin). Trolls can be any size. Some prey on travellers, some merely try to trick them. Some trolls are master craftsmen of intricate and even magical devices, including jewelry, weapons and armor (although this may be a confusion with dwarfs). Some trolls have great wealth in hoards, some do not. They often demand payment of some sort (food or wealth or an infant or the life of a victim) for whatever service they claim to perform (or for merely trespassing). It's not clear what they do with their payment, particularly infants.

In Tolkien-lore, trolls are (possibly) misshapen ents. They are huge, immensely strong, fond of eating people (especially dwarves). Some have human intelligence (if a bit on the low side) and can speak, and make use of tools and even fire (for cooking dwarves), and have an appreciation for money (although one wonders were the heck they would spend any of it). Others, called "cave trolls," appear to be of much lower intelligence, but also much stronger, and can be used by more intelligent evil races as "shock troops" or for situations requiring considerable brute strength. Apparently it is possible to breed them through magical means to be resistant to sunlight. All appear capable of using weapons, though it's not clear whether they know how to make anything themselves, and they have no magical abilities aside from the inconvenient one (for them) of being turned to stone.

Ogres are not affected by sunlight, tend to be huge, and are known for eating humans, whether raw or cooked. They possess great strength (far more than folklore trolls and ordinary humans) and often human intelligence. They are brutal and cruel, and may set themselves up as overlords of a human population, treating the humans as serfs as well as the occasional snack. Some actually do have the magical ability to transform themselves into any creature, regardless of size, but those creatures will have only the strength and abilities (aside perhaps from intelligence and magic) of normal creatures of that type (the ogre in Puss and Boots had this ability). Whether this ability is innate or from learned magic is unclear. Ogres enjoy crude contests in which they match their strength and abilities against others, and can often be tricked into placing themselves in a weaker position because of this (the fate of the ogre in Puss and Boots, who unwisely transformed himself into a mouse while talking to a cat). Ogres will use weapons, though again it isn't clear whether they make them themselves or merely steal them from others. They also amass great wealth, whether by plunder from their victims or collected as tribute from enslaved/threatened human communities. What they do with this wealth is again unclear, as one really doesn't expect an ogre to stroll into the local marketplace and buy a new cloak (or whatever).

This is what I remember from my reading as a boy, not from any game stats.

Pushing things in an even more unlikely direction, what about a residual hominid memory of giant prehistoric apes such as gigantopithecus? Maybe they would occasionaly grab and eat a homo erectus the way a chimp kills and eats monkeys. Sounds next to impossible, but the for the sake of gaming….

I like the notion that "trolls" were a memory of the last surviving Neanderthals. (I believe Michael Crichton is the source for this idea; it's the basic premise used in Eaters of the Dead and the film The 13th Warrior.)

Ogres are fat and eat human flesh (if one is to believe the originator of such tales, Charles Perrault). The ones in Warcraft have two heads.

Trolls vary in size, shape and abilities. Some are small, while others are as big as mountains. Some turn to stone during the day, others can regenerate. Some are quite hairy, while others have wrinkled skin. Some even have more than one head. Some can use magic, others are unable to understand it.

I thought Ogres were human in appearance, some with 2 heads, whilst trolls were goblin-like in appearance and could heal their wounds. Both species tend to be large.

Parzival,
I remember Crichton's book, but I think the originators of the idea were guys like Bernard Huevelmans and Ivan Sanderson who studied tales of yeti and sasquatch.
I think Crichton may have been inspired by these cryptozoologists: link

this was published in the early 60s.

Myra Shackley is a more recent advocate:http://www.amazon.com/Still-Living-Sasquatch-Neanderthal-Enigma/dp/0500274061

On trolls and dwarfs and large and small. Is it possible that the tales of trolls and dwarfs are intertwined and that to the ancient Scandanavian the troll was a large variety of magical being and the dwarf was just a short version? To Tolkien and gamers trolls and dwarf(ves) are distinctly different entities, but I wonder how well a Viking would explain the difference while passing around the drinking horn? To the ancients both held an aura of menace. What about the evil dwarf Regin in the 'Saga of the Volsungs'?

Some of my favorite fantasy figures are the old Ral Partha trolls and ogres. VERY nice sculpts, but I will be darned if I can tell the difference between a troll and an ogre.

I don't recall "ogres" by Ral Partha, hmmm. But I have a nice-sized "clan" of all their trolls.

And you should know better than to start up this thread on the heels of the "TROLL" discussion on "TMP Talk"….

For Ogres, I think "Time Bandits" and the one on the ship..

For Trolls, I think Harry Potter part 1 "Troll in the Dungeon!"..

-CH

In the tales of my youth,

Troll females were always trying to seduce men who if they were tempted were quickly aged often to senility overnight. The females were good looking but always with a fault. Troll males ugly hairy not too bright and preyed on travellers often under bridges. They were faerie folk unseely, a subdivision of elves.

Ogres were large dim often with a human wife and children with a house (occasionally a castle) by a road where they preyed on and ate travellers. The were normal mortal kind (not faerie) possible human cannibals.

Both could pass for human.

x42

The image of Sauron using magic to bred a daylight resistant troll makes me think of a product tester.

"Okay guys bring out troll #203,451. Thats right put it on the x. Okay open the shutters. Hmmm, I got 43 seconds before he turned to stone, what did you get Og? Did't we get 51 seconds with troll #203,322? Does anyone remember what I put in that spell? I feel really good about this, I think we are real close to another break through here. We got anymore trolls to test today?"

One is always angier than the other.

Trolls tend to Hang around a favourite hunting ground and throw up a load of sick that annoys the locals ,some more than others.
It watches the locals and looks intently for the ones that seem more vexed at his sick, so it spews forth more.
The troll is a master at ignoring the locals that realise it is just sick.
These locals explain to others openly about this sickness in the hope that they will not persist in pointing and responding to the Sick.
This is were the Troll is a good hunter as it picks the annoyed ones cleverly and works on them with more Sick until they can take no more,then feeds upon their distress.
If you are annoyed you must seek out and use the mighty stifle Spear on the Troll until the hunting ground falls off the magical scrolling page and then return to the community unaware and unharmed.

Ogre is just the Father of any Girlfriend you go out with past or future.

Ogres live in Fairy Tale Land.

Trolls inhabit TMP.

In fantasy, orges are like giant humans, but more thuggish and a bit dim, trolls are the equivent but based on an orc not a human.

In fokelore, orges are almost always aggresive human eaters, trolls can be as well but are often very laywerish, making bargains with humans & being strict about the small print or only being able to harm humans in very stricly defined circumstances.

Phil

Being eaten or being cooked and eaten…

picture

misconceptions and stereotypes.
trolls are the smartest and nicest of all the fantasy races and everybody else is so embittered and envious about it that they started making up foul myths about them (e.g. tolkien).

gaming wise, the runequest/glorantha trolls are my favorites, given the extensive background info which is available for them.