"Fall In 2009 Profit Margin vs CW and Historicon" Topic

Upon examining the November HMGS East financial report I noted the Fall In 2009 profit figure of over $9,700. USD Way to go Andy T. and the FI crew! I was going to add another attaboy because I had thought this FI profit margin beat out CW and Historicon combined, but upon second look at the Nov report this could not be claimed. Somehow the Historicon profit margin in the same Nove report jumped a miraculous 6k since the Aug financial to a total of over 10k (in Aug the profit for Hist09 was 3.7 k vs the 10.9 k now reported in the Nov document). Pray tell how in this day and age of professional accounting does a convention gain this much profit difference 3 months after the event? Or am I answering my own question by mentioning the "professional" term?

Give it a rest.

As long as they're making a profit, why should anyone care?

Yes, does this matter in any way? I don't think so. Go play a game or something and let it go.

Yes, it does matter Naz. It's good Fall In had a profit but we are down in cash for the 11 months of 2009 approx -$55,000 and over -$9,000 for 2008. And we continue to spend recklessly. We have a settlement to pay more than likely over Baltimore. We obviously spent a bunch of money on Baltimore already. Then we rush to get a contract with Valley Forge already having rejected the site before. This is not fiscal responsibility and I urge all of us to ask questions of the BOD and keep them on the ball. They are spending OUR money not monopoly money. So go play a game and ignore it. The problem will not go away. It won't a real long time to go $0.00.

so are conventions are making money
that implies the core of the company is doing well.

now there are other issues. but that isn't the point here.

as for miraculously changing profit margins. it happens at a lot of places. not just here. though usually it is more expenses not more profit.

larry

Did you miss the two cash outlays I posted? Do you even wonder how we spent that much money in one year. Especially with profitable cons? We also have some future bills to pay in the thousands of dollars before it's over this year. We can't do that forever and we for sure won't be taking this non-profit group to the next level. There is no next level.

did i miss it
no
is it important
yes

is it relevant to costs of running the day to day running of cw and fi and historicon

no

start another thread and talk about it there

Well, Corzin it is relevant if we don't have it to spend. And if we get a bad rep for pulling out of stupid deals we made. I don't understand a lot of the unconcern about our finances. Everything we do or support takes money and if we continue to blow it and don't control the spending we may not have three cons anymore.

As I understand it there were expenses put into the Historicon 09 category which should never have been put there and were removed and classified properly as they should have been to start.

Good convention directors need the ability to control the expenses incurred by their conventions if they are to be held accountable. Granted the BOD as an oversight commitee needs to keep them under control as well. But good CDs will make sure they had approved the expenses that are placed into their convention ledgers.

I just think it's sad that the BOD takes capital letters away from the members, so they don't have any to use when posting.

Von-- All you say may be true and although it is linked to what the original poster was asking it isn't what we are commenting on here. The issues you raise are perhaps true and perhaps serious, but since I have no numbers and you apparently don't even have any accurate amounts that were spent on the Historicon fiasco I would say move it to another thread or drop it. It just makes HMGS members look (even more) picayune and overdramatic.

The cons will survive all this or they won't. Nothing lasts forever and I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over stuff over which I have no control.

Lon is 100% correct. The change reflects items that were added to the budget with neither review or approval of the CD. During the search for a new home for Historicon and the expected move to Baltimore several items involving site visits and promotions were assigned to the convention budgets (actually across all three cons as Andy can tell you) by a board member who incorrectly assumed this was alright to do.

When the directors saw these charges they were moved to chapter where they belong. No shenanigans, no corruption, no cookin the books. Now if you want to characterize the fact that in an organization with no paid full time workers, it took a couple months to identify, investigate, run the numbers past everyone involved, make a final decision on what appropriately goes where, and disseminate the update as unprofessional, then that's your prerogative. You might want to ask first though…or at least get some idea on how the process works.

Neil Brennan
Deputy Director Historicon
2006-2010

"You might want to ask first though…or at least get some idea on how the process works."

Neil, you know that that's not how the rabble rousers work. They much prefer to start a thread with NO knowledge (and a lot of gasoline) and let the fire build from there!

Thanks for clarifying this, though.

When I make an entry in my own checkbook register, I generally have an idea whether the money went for groceries at the supermarket, or for cash to tip pole dancers in Vegas.

I would hope that those responsible for much larger amounts of money in an organization's treasury would be able to do something similar.

Just sayin'…

Allen

or for cash to tip pole dancers in Vegas.

Scouting venues for a 2012 Historicon?

Kyotecon, maybe…

What is really amazing to me has been the attitudes of members toward those who raise legitimate questions of concern about how their money is spent by their appointed representatives without a care about the end result. Without rehasing the issues and mistakes of 2009 I think we can agree a fiasco took place that is going to cost HMGS money in a legal settlement. Yet no one seems to care. And at the same time that is occuring we rush off to another venue and sign another contract more than likely at higher costs and no one seems to care. But the people who say wait a minute how about a litte accounting and explanation on this sudden move, they become rabble rousers, or monday morning quarterbacks or worse. That kind of an arrogant and somewhat ignorant attitude really is appalling and continues to get us in trouble. We have a right to financial accountability whether the questions are uncomfortable or not. I really wish as a member trying to be a responsible member that I wasn't asking these questions and being called names by those that really don't give a damn or are uninformed. I have other things to do in life but I am hoping the membership will get its act together and very soon.

Allen, book it and I'll be there for Kyotecon:Vegas in 2011.

vonLoudon, I do understand your frustration on being called a Monday morning quarterback elsewhere, if that was you. Don't assume no one cares just because they've chosen not to get on a public forum to ask the questions. Perhaps they've already drawn their own conclusions and don't feel like sharing an opinion.

Is this a HMGS East member forum? The original question was asked in a smart @ss manner. So he got a smart @ss response. Get over it.

I don't have a problem with members raising questions. It's bad form to do it in public on TMP and is a sure way to not be taken seriously.

Of course I was being facetious about a 6k accounting shift being 'professional'. Let me take it one more step by asking then what was the elusive 6k spent on? That may be more indicative of the problem within the ruling heads of the organization. I did not expect my question to be answered on any HMGS East forum thus the asking on TMP. Thank God for TMP as we'd get little or no explanations at all otherwise. Unless you want to await the 8am Cold Wars 3 hour briefing on all things regarding Baltimore vs King of Prussia. Hand in there Maynard. I too have very little regard for the 80 percenters that care or do little if anything as long as the games continue.

Sorry…..should have been "hang" in there Maynard.

I'm sorry if I am bringing up this topic as I thought this was the topic. And if you read the left hand column on this page you will see that the webmaster/owner states that all members in good standing may post here. Doesn't say blip about HMGS or HMGS forums. Having said that I have been preaching for almost a year and this situation is coming to a close. I have only wanted my fellow members and wargamers who benefit from HMGS being there to be aware and take their own responsibility in this matter. The powers that be do respond better than before and nows the time to get their attention if you believe something is wrong and needs fixing. You see I have to hope that they eventually succeed because I remember when we had no such organization or even local clubs in the DC area where we could go play games. So take it seriously, maybe not as seriously as me and go enjoy some more good times with your friends. Later, Dudes.

Neil, thank you for your explanation on the promotion stuff. I saw some of it listed. Now as to the process, how about a membership manual on how these processes work. It would be very helpful and draw in some of the members who are trying to figure out what's going on. There has not been much communication from the BOD on things that have happened in the past and now there's a legal problem so it's no wonder a lot of what we find out is first due to rumor. I hope Heather can work out a satisfactory way to communicate with the members and we can kill most of the rumors by just putting out the truth! Thanks again.

For a brief period of respite, the threads were free from this kind of navel contemplation, but now we return to the same old haggling on and on about the BCC, accounting issues, the Board and whether or not we should prosecute them all for fraud and embezzlement.
Sigh. At least for a few weeks we could delight in a REAL convention – The Williamsburg Muster.

Dang, so all these years of going to Fall In, Cold Wars, and Historicon I have been attending FAKE conventions? Please.

The last thing you guys want is to make this an adversarial thing between the Williamsburg Muster and the HMGS-E events. That's a terribly silly approach.

I won't get involved in most of this discussion, those who care to ask, or are unfortunate enough to be around after I have had a few beers, already know how I feel on the subject. I do want to say however that I believe the profit line of FI should be in the 7k range, and not 9k. I imagine there are a few submitted expenses that have yet to hit the books… Just so there are no surprises. Still, I think that is pretty good for FI all things considered…

Andy

gaming the event would have to take in a lot, like underground movement, missing bridges, water movement,fire, smoke,dead, street gangs, police, CIA, FBI,DHLS, DEA, SS, all the US mil forces, and just lots people trying to live and get out of town,

not contemplating terrorist attacks on the US

nope not me Im to old to start a war, only for stories and gaming.

"you dont need a nuke or bombs,
you only need to CS gas 4 or 5 big malls a week for a month or so to have effective terrorist attacks on the US :) hit them where they shop and live." Idea from a DOT flier on possible attacks.

Well, gentlemen. Events are overtaking us. Some of these predictions are coming to a head. I don't know what exactly we could have done to stop the train, because the engineer and the fireman were in a hurry to get up steam and they took off without us, so we couldn't warn them, the signals were out, no communication, now they've almost derailed the train. Now some of you will get what I was talking about, but not much solace in that. We will go on as wargamers without this particular organization, I'm afraid. We will form other groups and organizations and put on wargames at various places and life will go on. Hopefully no individual will suffer monetary loss over the matter, but the lessons are there to be learned by all. I am glad to see new cons taking place and other new cons contemplated. I will support them as much as possible by my presence and a few dollars here and there. So maybe it is time to move on. It was fun while it lasted. Maynard.

Someone has there hands in the cookie jar

Instead of generalities, how about specifics?

mad monkey 1, I gave up long ago hoping even for generalities. These people can't seem to write more than allusion.

It sure would be nice to read some specifics for once. I mean they should man up and name names. Use the word "allegedly" if it's all rumor, etc. I read these in hopes someone will make an informative post at some point.

I guess it's "to dream the impossible dream", then. : )

Seriously, though…who would believe any figure put out by HMGS at this point?

I would. Most of the questions raised here would never have been asked if management were cooking the books. The financial reports look to be pretty accurate and tell an interesting story to anyone who cares to read them.

Neil's explanation of changes in Historicon figures makes sense and I believe it.

The problem is that the reports don't go far enough and management has ignored requests for more detail.

For example, there is a line item for professional services in the amount of $4K. Since we also have line items for accountants and lawyers, I am curious as to what "professional" services we were paying for. That question has never been answered. There are other items that are similarly opaque and the lack of response only heightens suspicions.

The reason this matters is simple. If conventions make enough money, HMGS survives and continues to put on conventions. If not, run a deficit long enough (and it doesn't have to be long if management spends tens of thousands more than revenue)and HMGS dies, and no more HMGS conventions. I wouldn't like that.

The last thing you guys want is to make this an adversarial thing between the Williamsburg Muster and the HMGS-E events. That's a terribly silly approach.

Thank you Nazrat. We are a small and I believe good con but we are not competing with HMGS-E cons in any way.

The person who made the comment is not in anyway associated with the seven of us who started and run the Williamsburg Muster. He just likes our con.

Justin
Williamsburg Muster Secretary

Last year our Director and a board member went down to Williamsburg Muster and found it to be a fun, well run weekend. I strongly encourage anyone who can, to give it a try. There is no doubt in my mind that this show will only get bigger and better. If anything I'm a little jealous. I remember when Bob, Tim, Monica, Jeff and I first got FALL IN! up and running. The first few years are the hardest, but in retrospect sure are the most fun. Good on ya, guys! Best of luck down the road.

Neil Brennan
Deputy Director
FALL IN! 1997-2001
Historicon 2006-2011

The problem is that the reports don't go far enough and management has ignored requests for more detail.

That is true, Mitch, but here is the problem. The "raw" fiancial data by nature is structered unfriendly to convention reporting. If you have late reported expenses,income from hotels, refunds or are just plain waiting on a check; the financials may be spreadout over two or even three reports.

There are no lines for "epectin", "got stiffed", "slow payer", or "mush, he's a great guest we want to bring him back, but he just submitted his travel expense 3 months late". You could spend a lot of time writting up an explanation for everything, but who has the time. The treasurer is usually running about trying to close things out while rampining up for the next con and no one else is exactly jumping at the prospect of more work. BTW, did I mention that even if you went through that time and trouble, God help you the first time you project something that does not work out. The do nothing/know nothings will be all over that in a heart beat.

Neil

Seriously, though…who would believe any figure put out by HMGS at this point?

Ahh…the IRS? In 2009 a MEMBER who apparently shares your sentiment triggered an IRS audit with an uninformed, irresponsible complaint to the IRS. Dudley and his "supposed cooked books" came through with flying colors. In fact, we had no gigs or irregularities. The books were fine.

The last few HMGS treasurers have been hard workers who did a great job while taking unprecedented amounts of guff. If you think you have a case…make it! Otherwise, give the guys who actually put the time in a little consideration for a tough job, well done.

Neil Brennan

Neil, I wasn't asking for raw financial data, and as far as dealing with the do nothings/know nothings… been there, done that.

However, it wouldn't put any particular strain on the BOD to provide some clarification on occasion. Go back to my professional services example. The question was what we got in way of professional services for our $4,000. It wouldn't take much to say that "Joe Blow Corp was paid the money to count all the paperclips at the BCC." Anyone with the information should feel free to jump in and give the real answer, BTW.

It is this lack of reasonable response to legitimate questions that does more to damage the BOD's reputation than almost anything else. (I say almost because the BCC debacle trumps just about anything.) The current BOD seems far more receptive to dialog than previous admins. I encourage it to continue the approach.

My point is that the organization as a whole has had a dismal track record recently of communication, honesty, and openness. I'm certainly not addressing any specific individuals.