"Yet another "Pretty Rules" vs. "Ugly Rules" thread" Topic

This was inspired by the latest in that ongoing series of threads along the lines of: "I would rather pay less for cheap but good rules, than for a pretty rulebook"

TMP link

I've noticed that a lot of these discussions set up a strawman argument about a choice between the mythical "Greatest rules ever, but written in crayon on toilet paper…" and the "Pretty Shiny Book that's So-So as a rules set."

Laying aside the obvious logical problem that there is no such thing as a "good" game mechanism that people would objectively identify and agree on, and that potential game buyers probably won't know in advance that the rules mechanisms are "Good" unless somebody has already bought the book…

The thing that people don't understand unless they've worked on the business side of the hobby is: there isn't really much money to save by going "Old School." Printing in full color is now almost the same price as printing in B&W. And publishing as a downloadable PDF from a website means that the cost of ink and paper is totally irrelevant. You can create whatever you want and sell it for whatever you want, because it's just pixels.

There's a bit of irony here, in fact. Because a PDF download is usually much cheaper than a printed book, the customer thinks: "I'm getting a bargain! Hooray! How come that guy with the shiny book can't sell me the rules for fifteen bucks like these Noble Savages with their simple PDF?!" But of course, the guy with the shiny book is actually making a >Lot Less Money< off you than the PDF guy is, because the guy with the book had to invest thousands of dollars in a printer, had to pay for shipping and storage, etc. He's probably only making $5-10 per book, whereas the guy with the $15 USD PDF is making… $15. USD

So the Takeaway Lessons here for the smart kids should be:

1. You're not going to want to buy the toilet-paper rules in the first place, because those are all free now, on peoples' blogs and websites. So it's a false dichotomy to contrast that with the pretty book.

2. The "cheap" rules available on PDF can be color, B&W, anything, it doesn't matter. The customer doesn't really have a choice to make there, either, since it's just a question of how much time and effort the author decided to put into it, prior to selling it online.

3. The pretty book is a sort of collectible, for those who want it. It's not the most profitable way for an author to go, but it does create a bigger splash and get people excited, and that sort of fun and excitement is why we got into the hobby in the first place.

Fundamentally, though, we're in an era of unprecedented >Choice.< There used to be only the roughly-done Old School books, for which you had to pay. Now you can choose between Old School Style (usually free), PDF (usually cheap), and Pretty Book (a more expensive collectible.)

Why would anybody complain about that?

Why would a handful of "old school" wargamers complain about more choice, i.e the availability of well-produced alternatives to their own favorite rule sets? Hmmm… beats me!

Excellent post, by the way!

Actually, as far as I know, there aren't any rules that are actually printed on toilet paper for sale.

This is a glaring omission in the hobby. I demand someone do something about it immediately.

I reckon publishers like Ganesha Games have it nailed – download the PDF for a modest fee, or pay a bit more for print on demand book from lulu.com. This means that the publisher doesn't have to shell out for a big print run. OK, you can't produce a mighty tome like Rules of Engagement or Black Powder in this fashion, but it's a great middle way and gives punters what they want.

why would a handful of "old school" wargamers complain about

Because we have a bunch of old grognards here on TMP that will complain about pretty much everything?

Sniff Sniff:

Nicely put.

Frankly I think with the advent of the e-reader the shelf life on the printed rule book is pretty limited anyway. I'd guess that in 10 years, few if any publishers will offer a printed version, leaving that to Lulu and Kinkos.

The die-hard paper-book lovers (and I'm one) will raise a lot of noise but economics will win out. Publishers will see that a printed version greatly increases cost and risk for no real gain. It will be the vinyl/CD all over again.

Someone big – Mongoose, GW, Privateer – will go all e-books having determined the printed book is no longer profitable enough. All the little guys will then follow suit.

That will create the need for a new distribution model – whereby game stores and web shops can re-sell PDFs. But that will get solved quickly enough.

I wonder about places like On Military Matters and Grenadier Books – between PDFs and Google books, they;re going to have to evolve in a huge way.

I like paper but this is actually an interesting time!

Regards,

Mark Severin
Scale Creep Miniatures

>>> Because we have a bunch of old grognards here on TMP that will complain about pretty much everything?

No--because too many times now, we've seen inferior publications that demand high prices because of their slick presentation, but aren't worth the toilet paper they *should* have been printed on when it comes to content.

"Oooh, shiny!" fools the pre-teens. Older gamers look for quality in the contents, not in the packaging.

Allen

I think that I've had just as many crappy looking/crappy playing rules as good looking/crappy playing rules.

I think the real point is that a pretty rule book does not mean it is any good.The rules with no name is good and pretty,Napoleon is pretty but no good and Grande Armee is pretty but a rip off of volley and Bayonet.I have several Two hour wargames books that are good rules along Disposable heroes,not a lot of chrome but good rules just the same.If you like only the pretty sets you are missing out.My second edition Koenig kreig rules I love and am not shelling out 75.00 dollars for the new set.Rob

Good post. Well put.

And I WOULD spend a moderate sum to buy a good set of rules as a PDF, thereby sending all the money to the rules designer. I do have to add though that I would NOT pay the same as for a hard copy since I am incurring the printing costs myself.

But at least I can check the rules throughly and playtest them before decidng to incur the production costs.

If I chose to print it on TP that's my business.

Allen – it is not only younger gamers who fall for oooh, shiny! I know that many old people find it comforting to think that they are wiser than the young, but it has no basis in fact.

I have some pretty lousy rules from the 70s and 80s that were miserably printed.
I have some average rules that were adequately printed.
I have some great rules that were beautifully printed.
And of course, I have the opposite.
My all time favorite rules, the best ever written, "The Sword and the Flame" is adequately printed.

Is this like one of those alignment grids? Lawful Evil? Chaotic Good?
This is like the stupid psychology tests in which you fill out a bunch of questions to discover that you are a meat-eating wiccan fascist in the 2D matrix, or a Libertarian Trotskyite.

In other words, the quality of printing has no influence on the quality of the game.

>Grande Armee is pretty but a rip off of volley and Bayonet

To me GA is a vast improvement on V&B. I guess if you're indifferent to C2 then maybe it might seem like a rip off.

Here in the UK B&W printing is significantly cheaper than colour for short runs, as the numbers increase the difference gets less but it is still considerably more.

If I'm buying a PDF ruleset, please don't fill it with pointless pictures, as I've still got to print the thing out.

Toilet paper rules rule! Could this be the 2010 innovation in game design to nominate? Interesting classification of rules types though.

I really, really can't see some electronic gizmo taking over from paper books. For some uses and some people, yes, for all people and all uses, no. Anyone remember the 'paperless office'?

"If I'm buying a PDF ruleset, please don't fill it with pointless pictures, as I've still got to print the thing out."

Or colored background… Don't require me to expend color cartridges for your experiments in artistic expression.

Allen

Great post Sniff.

Or colored background… Don't require me to expend color cartridges for your experiments in artistic expression.

Grayscale printing is always an option.

I really liked that Ambush Alley gives you two PDFs for Force on Force, a pretty one and a print friendly one.

Allen & Martin (wasn't that a comedy duo?) -- some designers will provide two pdfs for the price -- one in color and the other B&W for easier printing.

"Grayscale printing is always an option."

Not if the PDF is poorly designed. Frequently, it's necessary to print in color in order to read the text.

Allen

No--because too many times now, we've seen inferior publications that demand high prices because of their slick presentation, but aren't worth the toilet paper they *should* have been printed on when it comes to content.

Hmmm… hasn't that been one of the chief criticisms leveled against WAB by DBx fans over the years?

WAB has for all practical purposes died because of an insistence on slick packaging and "Ooh, shiny!" pictures--instead of just getting the content (army lists) out to the players.

And if slick packaging and "Oooh, shiny!!!" pictures had been required for success, DBA/M/MM would never have got very far, would they?

Allen

And if slick packaging and "Oooh, shiny!!!" pictures had been required for success, DBA/M/MM would never have got very far, would they?

Perhaps not, although the Law of Diminishing Returns does appear to have taken effect for the latest incarnation.

"Oooh, shiny!" fools the pre-teens. Older gamers look for quality in the contents, not in the packaging.

And some of us like to see professional quality in the written text, gaming mechanics and production values.

Cheers,
Scott

I like the Ambush Alley approach. You can get .pdf with all the glitz and colour; a printer friendly .pdf or you can have them print it for you. Rob.

"And some of us like to see professional quality in the written text…"

Honestly, that must be a tiny minority in the gaming world. Look at how many TMPers can't even manage to start a thread without inflicting errors upon the title. Then there are the l33t-speakers, the fownettic spelers, and those for whom any foreign word is an utter mystery. It's surprising that *more* abominations don't get turned out as finished rules and supplements.

Allen

A lot of the time I just want the actual rules, not background fluff and pictures. If people want to include that either just put it all at the back or in a separate supplement.

I had a rule set printed on toilet paper once. But I "lost" the introduction and first chapter unexpectedly.

Retrieval was not an option.

They were crappy rules anyway! :-)

I demand my toilet paper rules to be printed on shiny slippy Izal paper, the kind we used in school when I was a kid. Either that, or the dreaded Polish institutional woodchip effect, known for its ability to draw blood.

Nothing better will do!

picture

Allen wrote:

Older gamers look for quality in the contents, not in the packaging.

Not all of them.

Yes, I know:

picture

So after all this, we're saying one shouldn't judge a book by its cover? Either way?

- Bob

Rob12763: "Grande Armee is pretty but a rip off of volley and Bayonet"

You've said this twice now in two days, but it's still not true.

Grande Armée is neither pretty, nor a rip off of Volley and Bayonet.

It's a grainy black-and-white, spiral-bound book, and the only thing the rules have in common with V&B is the basing system.

Let me see, you take your pdf and print it out, several copies for the various gamers . What are you going to do then spiral bind them? No. You will take the loose sheets and staple them at the top left corner. After a few games they will be torn and tattered and look like hell. I have no plans to acquire pdfs of rules I plan to actually play. I think those who go that route will eventually see there is a functionality to having a nicely printed set of rules that can be refered to while the game is in progress. I have a set of Dave Milward's Musketeer rules that is very nicely designed and printed, simply black print on white paper. I also enjoy Lasalle with all its color. However, I will not pay Lassale's price for Milward's rules. Each author needs to make the production decisions he feels most comfortable with and let the market decide.

Rich

Let me see, you take your pdf and print it out, several copies for the various gamers . What are you going to do then spiral bind them? No. You will take the loose sheets and staple them at the top left corner. After a few games they will be torn and tattered and look like hell.

I put mine in plastic pockets, and put the plastic pockets in a ring binder. Haven't had one fall apart yet.

Plastic pockets

link

Ring binder

link

Not rocket surgery

Rich Knapton wrote:

[…] Let me see, you take your pdf and print it out, several copies for the various gamers . What are you going to do then spiral bind them? No. You will take the loose sheets and staple them at the top left corner. After a few games they will be torn and tattered and look like hell.

But with a printed book, surely you're not buying an original book for every player? Taking the relevant pages and having them spiral bound is not out of the question these days. In fact, I'll usually hit Kinko's not long after my "perfect bound" books start to fall apart and have that done.

I have no plans to acquire pdfs of rules I plan to actually play. I think those who go that route will eventually see there is a functionality to having a nicely printed set of rules that can be refered to while the game is in progress.

Well, with a PDF, I can have several books bound together (which I have done) or simply have the relevant chapters required for play printed and bound (which I have done). With a good spiral binding, I can lay them flat in a limited space as well, which most other binding options don't provide for.

Then there's the ability to search and make errata updates. I'm seeing more positives to PDFs than negatives these days! They may not be CHEAP to print, but they're not horribly expensive to print either.

- Bob

"…there is a functionality to having a nicely printed set of rules that can be refered to while the game is in progress…"

Dunno…for me this is a very limited bonus: if you need to have the rule book on hand to play the game, the game itself is way too complicated, IMO. Aside from looking up how to handle some oddball, once-in-a-bluemoon occurance, the rules should be on the bookshelf. Given that, I suppose I value "Pretty Rules" the same way I value any other good book I own.

As Sniff Sniff (Sam) states, the use of a basing sytem does not make a set of rules a rip off of another set of rules.
You have to examine each mechanic for the major features (movement, ground/time scale, combat, musketry and artillery), level of play, plust how each each treats supplemental concepts like terrain, morale, command/control, scenarios, army composition.

If all is similar then a cloud of concern exists. If not give each its proper due.

Printing in full color is now almost the same price as printing in B&W.

Sorry to quibble, but as a professional designer (and someone who teaches design in college), I feel obliged to point out that this statement is not even remotely true. There is a HUGE difference in price between color and b&w.

Moving on to a few other points made above:

Mark: I don't see e-books taking over within 10 years. I think the publishers will try to force people to make the transition, but that the attempt will fail and will take 15+ years, if then. The devices are too expensive and will continue to remain so for the foreseeable future.

----------

By the way, production quality is an integral part of any product. In addition to the subjective quality of the written content, which you won't know until you actually read it, you must factor in the product's shelf appeal. An attractive, well written book is going to sell better than an unattractive well written book. No, production values won't save a bad book, but they will enhance a good one.

"In fact, I'll usually hit Kinko's not long after my "perfect bound" books start to fall apart and have that done."

The thread on binding quality was abandoned, so let's raise this important point again. When was the last time you saw a Bible fall apart when opened? Here is a book so inexpensive that it's given away by the millions (and you could add the Quran, or the Book of Mormon)--and I understand the economy of scale involved as it affects individual cost--but how come those don't break their spines on the first opening? How come they stay together during constant reading, reference, laying fully open, and carrying about?

Allen

[There is a HUGE difference in price between color and b&w.]

I can show you the quotes if you like.

I took bids from a dozen printers in five different countries, and in no case did going full color add more than $1.40 USD to the cost of each book, on print runs of 2000 or 3000 books. In most cases, the difference was under a dollar.

[When was the last time you saw a Bible fall apart… the Quran, or the Book of Mormon… How come they stay together during constant reading, reference, laying fully open, and carrying about?]

Allen, if you seriously don't know, then I suggest you consult your local theologian….

mmitchell wrote:

[…] Mark: I don't see e-books taking over within 10 years.

While not taking over from print, e-books (or at least electronic formats) are becoming quite commonplace. I carry a veritable library of technical manuals with me on my tiny laptop. I don't think electronic formats need to usurp print to succeed massively -- they already have. I see them as complimentary. I can, after all, print and bind PDFs.

I think the publishers will try to force people to make the transition, but that the attempt will fail and will take 15+ years, if then.

The publishers will no doubt try DRM and lock-in, so yes, in that they will fail to force everyone into one universal format (hopefully). But that is a separate issue from the usability, flexibility and potential of electronic formats. Don't use the MPAA or RIAA as models for success!

The devices are too expensive and will continue to remain so for the foreseeable future.

If we feel that lock-in and DRM are necessary, perhaps. And yet a number of increasingly ubiquitous devices are perfectly usable for viewing electronic formats, as well as doing a bunch of other handy things. And again, I can print the material out to read on the john if I want to.

- Bob

aecurtis wrote:

[…] The thread on binding quality was abandoned, so let's raise this important point again. When was the last time you saw a Bible fall apart when opened?

Assuming you mean physically, they generally don't. Are you advocating stealing bibles from hotel rooms and pasting in our rules? :)

Here is a book so inexpensive that it's given away by the millions (and you could add the Quran, or the Book of Mormon)--and I understand the economy of scale involved as it affects individual cost--but how come those don't break their spines on the first opening?

I suspect there are some rather large financial powerhouses behind that equation! But I do take your point that quality binding is not an unknown art. I just would like to extend that line of thinking to include the fact that consumers have increasing control over some of those factors. While I don't expect to see expensive leather binding options on Lulu, there are definitely options other than stapled or crappy perfect binding. A lot of the rehashing here on TMP relates to whether any particular individual perceives any value to one option or the other. Were I a publisher, I'd like to get out of the business of having to care!

- Bob

Sam wrote:

[…] I can show you the quotes if you like.

I took bids from a dozen printers in five different countries, and in no case did going full color add more than $1.40 USD USD to the cost of each book, on print runs of 2000 or 3000 books. In most cases, the difference was under a dollar.

What is the difference in cost in developing the product using color, pictures and/or a nice index? To be honest, as a finicky consumer, I am not going to like the binding of whatever you produce. But I am willing to pay for the content, including "production values". Let me separate the printing and binding from the content and you make me a happy man.

- Bob

[What is the difference in cost in developing the product using color, pictures and/or a nice index?]

I've done one book in all-B&W, one book in mostly-B&W with some color inserts, and one book in all-Color, and in each case the development time was about the same: roughly six months. But I did spend more time at the beginning of the color book, getting various basic colors and patterns right; things I didn't have to worry about in the other two books. I'd say that it added less than a month of work time, though. And now that I know what I'm doing, it won't add that much time again, with the next book.

"Allen, if you seriously don't know, then I suggest you consult your local theologian…."

I asked Ed the rabbi about this. He pointed out that the first edition of Torah didn't suffer handling very well. The second edition became part of a special boxed set.

Around… it must have been around 1970, the minister that took over our family church (and I mean took over, full cult of personality and all; apparently he'd tired of molesting children as a Scout leader and elementary school teacher, and went to seminary so he could have fun messing with adults) insisted that the congregation buy a stack of the "Good News for Modern Man" version of the NT to give to everyone; sort of a forced conversion. I still have one. Not any different in appearance than your ordinary paperback, but the spine simply will not come apart, not even after forty years.

Why can't printers do this with game products?

Allen

I'd love to know. It would certainly save me a lot of headaches.

One of the things being overlooked here is that the old B&W short run rulesets were very price conscious – the gamer would only pay so much, the printer but up the price for every extra sheet.

Result – you had to cram the rules in, and all the unnecessary chaff had to be ditched. Leading to good, solid, playable rules. Well, some of the time !

A lot of my favourite rules came out as booklets. The reader sometimes had to do some work to understand them, but that's not a problem as long as you aren't the StrawMan.

Sadly, it seems that there are always exceptions to a general all encompasing comment.
i have seen a number of bibles or new testaments fall apart. Most were made in the 1960s and 1970s. they used they common paperback binding process rather than a more traditional kind. The perfect example is the New Testament version titled 'Good News for Modern Man'.

Most of the experience that I have in binding quotes and options come from the consulting calendars and coloring books that I oversee. The traditional center staples are the cheapest to use for small books of 48 pages or less. They are considerably cheaper than velco or sprial bind options.

Sam knows better about the cost and options of binding for rules like La Salle, Black Powder or Fields of Glory.

aecurtis wrote:

[…] Why can't printers do this with game products?

What, make everybody buy their book?

- Bob