"Where to find detailed (btn-level) OOB for major battles?" Topic

I've been looking around the internet for Orders of Battles of the major battles in the Napoleonic Wars, such as Austerlitz, Talavera, Leipzig, Borodino, and Waterloo.

My searches led me to fantastic websites such as napoleonistyka.atspace.com and Napoleon Series, but I discovered that while they provide an excellent overview of the organizational structure and troop strength at Army or Corps level, they don't have information on the troop strength of each individual battalion or regiment.

Is this kind of information available? If not freely available on the internet, maybe in some books?

mate,

There are so many places to find orbats, google is your friend if you do not have the books at home.

Just remember to compare orbats (at least 3) to get a more accurate assessment of each battle and the formations that fought in them.

Shane

Shane, I have been googling for days, and have found dozens of OOBs all around the internet.

However, none of these contain information on the troop strength at a regiment or lower level.

As such, my question still stands.

It really depends which campaign/battle you're looking for. The Nafziger collection is one huge resource, as are various books depending upon the campaign. Gill has very detailed OOB's in his books (covering 1809), among others.

Heres a link for Nafziger link
If your interested in 1805 the senario book Rise of Eagles by Michael Hopper is fantastic and contains Battalion strengths.
regards
max

Austerlitz by Robert Goetz
The Battle of Borodino by Alexander Mikaberidze

Both of these books are newer and have fantastic OBs and are probably the best acounts of the battles and OBs

William

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

I'm discovering that this hobby of historical wargaming is slowly turning into a full-fledged interest in history itself! And not simply the superficial history that we learn at school, but a deeper, almost academic-level interest…

but of course, thats the best part.

I'm hooked on this stuff and in awe of guys who speak other languages and actually go search archives for original sources.

The Digby Smith Data Book is a pretty good place to start.

John

Kraussian,

When it comes to Talavera and all Peninsular campaigns, Sir Charles Oman has wonderfully detailed orders of battle, including battalion level strengths and casualty returns for each major battle. Any significant library will have copies I should think but of course if money is no option you can start collecting them.

As for the other campaign theatres – I imagine you won't be as fortunate.

And yes, historical wargaming for me and many of my freinds is far more to do with researching and recreating history also. Welcome to the madness.

You can also download pdf's some out of copyright books like Oman from google books. The osprey campaign books are also useful for specific battles.

John

Kraussian,

I can help you – contact me at log1cal.mh AT gmail.com and I'll send you some stuff.

Maxshadow,

Thanks for the kind words. I have 4 other books very close to completion but working on more than one front has slowed me down. While Rise of Eagles took about 1800 hours end-to-end, there are a couple assumptions/guesses where I lacked proper information (Austrian OB for Albeck and Stecken each have a guess pick between a couple regiments in the area where I was unable to validate which battalions before the book was published). I also didn't publish one additional action for 1805 (Verona) because it wasn't ready at the time.

Wkeyser is right – R. Goetz book is superb and probably the best 1805 book in English in years. In hindsight I wish I'd written to Mr. Goetz to consult his vast knowledge. I corresponded with Alex Mikaberidze on a couple issues regarding the Russian participation in the 1805 campaign – where the sources I reviewed were inconsistent or contradictory. Alex is a true gentleman first class. Alex's books on the Russian army are by far the most accurate and explanatory of anything I've read in English. Gonsalvo is also offering excellent advice. I've read quite a few books on the 1809 campaign in English, German, French and John Gill's books are superb, the best in my opinion for English narratives of the 1809 campaign. His attention to detail in phenomenal.

While the Oman series stands the test of time and is also superb for detail, there are a few errors that have come to light over the last hundred years. I love his volumes and his lack of pro-British bias compared to some authors. I would caution you on Smith's book though – with all due respect to Mr. D. Smith, his undertaking comes with a higher level of error than either Mr. Nafziger or Mr. Oman because of the sheer magnitude of what he tried to cover. I do not wish to denigrate his character, or Mr. Nafziger's/Mr. Oman's – just caution you that Smith's volume has quite a few errors in it. e.g. some orders of battle are for battalions/cavalry regiments in the area, not necessarily engaged in any fighting, other OBs are incomplete, some actions are missing from the volume and IIRC at least one is listed with the wrong date. Still, Mr. Smith's efforts are to be applauded. It was an enormous undertaking.

I agree with Clay – but should clarify the linguistics. I read German, French and Spanish – sort of, but am not fluent in any of them. The mind can translate what it reads, not what it hears as well. E.g. I read a passage in Zweguintzow's volume (the French translation of the Russian) which discusses Russian deployments at Pultusk 1807. The text goes something like this "de droit a gauche…" which translates as "from right to left" when discussing the battalion locations. If you use a language translator (be very careful of this) it implies "from the right of the left" which suggests the battalions are deployed in the reverse order. It is very easy to make mistakes – I know because it happens to me all the time. :(

Gill, Mikaberidze and Goetz are all superb recommendations and their scholarly research using archival material is second to none.

As noted, contact me at the e-mail listed above and I'll see if I can help you.

Michael

"I'm discovering that this hobby of historical wargaming is slowly turning into a full-fledged interest in history itself! And not simply the superficial history that we learn at school, but a deeper, almost academic-level interest."

While you can certainly enjoy our hobby without delving deeply into history, IMHO the more you do it the more you'll get out of it. I'm always adding new volumes to my own library, and I'm well under way with my own 1809 scenario book.

At the same time, it *is* a hobby and we are playing *games*. The world will definitely not come to an end if the OOB you use to base a scenario on isn't perfectly accurate (as if that were even possible given the limitations of the various sources). That also assumes you have the right troops to represent all the various units in the first place!

Peter

Yes, I'm definitely discovering that this newfound interest in history is undoubtedly a good thing.

In fact, it's starting to become as much as (if not more) fun than the actual miniatures themselves!

Thank you for your wonderful suggestions, everyone!

Oh, and I've sent you an email, Michael. Hope I sent it to the correct address!