"What rules do you recommend for the Crusades?" Topic

I have a non-computer using customer looking for information on rules for the Crusades – primarily the first and third. What rules for you capture the period best, and why? Some brief criteria:

Not looking for skirmish/small unit battles
Not DBM (he is currently tired of these)
Wants to capture the "ad-hoc" feel of the Crusader armies

I know of:

The Art of War
Field of Glory
Ironbow II

Others?

I think that WAB has a lot going for it in this period. If you make your armies using history rather than just lists you can have a pretty good go with the earlier crusades. It makes cavalry powerful enough to have some serious punch without being an unstoppable juggernaut, makes light cav have a use that seems a match for how they were used historically and if you play on a bigger than standard table (>6x4) you can set up some very interesting games based on actual battles.

This is all based on the first crusade more so than later ones as that is the one I know best and have gamed. I can't imagine they are that much different but others might know better.

It does meet all of your requirements, the lists are pretty flexible, it is not DBanything and it certainly plays well with massive units.

Without a doubt "Shattered Lances" should be considered. It's period specific rules give the feel of Crusades fighting. The rules are unit based, incorporated saving throws and/or forced moves; based on player choice. Generals influence unit behavior.
They play best in 15mm but I've used them for 28 mm and they play well on a 8' x 5' table.
Web support here: users.actrix.co.nz/moyle

Without a doubt "Shattered Lances" should be considered. It's period specific rules give the feel of Crusades fighting. The rules are unit based, incorporated saving throws and/or forced moves; based on player choice. Generals influence unit behavior.

Absolutely 100% agree. Beautiful rules.

Regards
Mark

Warmaster

Unfortunately, the WAB Crusader and Arab & Saracen lists were done in "short form" for "Armies of Antiquity". They are flexible, which was one of the things I thought they needed in order to cover so much diversity over such a long period. But they're subject to abuse, and players unfamiliar with the period may not make the best use of the options.

A proper supplement has been reported as being in the works for a very long time. If done well, it could do everything that anyone would want. Sadly, that seems to have turned out to be another missed opportunity for WAB.

Allen

Surely you should use the Crusader rules?

Terry Gore's Medieval Warfare. I've gamed the Crusades with them for years. A couple of years ago Jeff Ball and I hosted a huge Hattin recreation at Historicon that really went over well. BTW, although the Crusader host was mostly toast, the Crusader's won the scenario because the King and several of the main leaders managed to cut their way out of the mess.

Ager Sanguinis (based on Field of Battles, or Piquet lite) was published in Miniatures Wargame magazine…

Ager Sanguinis – also available free as a flat (simple font & no pics) MS Word download from the files section of the following Yahoo Group sites (from memory):

link

link

link

With my complements,

James Roach

Another vote for Terry Gore's Medieval Warfare here. The only set I've played that really works with knights vs. horse archers.

Impetus. Extra Impetus 2 has a plethora of crusader era armies Latin, Muslim, Eastern Roman (Byzantine) and Balkan, and a campaign for the Saladin Era.

dadiepiombo.com/extra2e.html

There are three I recommend, though I have never played Shattered Lances. Medieval Warfare, Impetvs, and Knight Hack all deliver good games. My personal favorite is Medieval Warfare, with Knight Hack a close second. One should not overlook the fine support that Dadi & Piombo give their game, Impetvs.

Good luck with your search!

Ironbow 2 has the most in period setting and flavor,

Ager Sanguignis is a close second and Medieval warfare 2 is not bad even if "generic".

Those three are my first pick for crusades.

I have find impetus a bit bland for the period (I like them and basic, but they are too generic for my current tastes). I do not mind to learn a set for each period\setting if that set gives me a right immersion). And I hate the big bases in the current economy… you are stucked into them and cannot do anything else… or you decide to create wonderful but utterly ridiculous mini diorama (like the poertabgle road…).

Also look at Archon the period supplemement of Piquet (even if I think Ager is better spot on… and freeeeee!)

Arrigo

For the First Crusade (but not the thrid) I naturally recommend my own Comitatus rules, available as a free download at link

I also have a scenario for Dorylaeum at link

I developed the original Comitatus mechanisms for a 1st Crusade game, Deus le Veult, which was published in Slingshot back in the '80s

Well you can easily use DBA bases for Impetus. One unit of Impetus is made of 2-4 DBA bases. Also if costs are a worry you can use the 10mm/6mm measures for the 15mm figurines, or the 15mm measures for the 20/25mm figurines.

Wow, that Shattered Lances website is straight out of 1993. What about the rulebook? Is it a Kinko's spiral bound special or something better looking?

I think the Field of Glory Crusade book is one of the best ones so I would recommend FOG to him.

Another vote for Terry Gore's Medieval Warfare here. The only set I've played that really works with knights vs. horse archers.

I agree that is a touchstone interaction for evaluating a set of rules – and horse archers, light and especially heavy, are hard to provide for well. I was pleased that Field of Glory both handles it very well in terms of depicting the interaction on the table, presenting the right tactical choices, and handling the mechanics cleanly.

MW does provide a special rule allowing certain foot to open gaps to release the knights for a charge.

Another vote for Shattered Lances. A period specific rule set that really models the differences in the armies.

It is not Glossy and Hardbound but a good set of rules that due to its very specific period would be hard to produce with glossy pictures, etc. But if you want pretty pictures rather than a really good set of period specific rules than I am sure there are numerous choices out there.
William

I like the way FOG handles the horse archer – knight interaction. I've enjoyed the crusades games we've played with FOG.
It's not crusades specific though and might not capture the "ad-hoc" nature of the armies that you mention.

I do enjoy a nice looking book, but it is of course the rules that are the most important factor. I don't mind minimalist rulebooks if they are priced appropriately. I don't like paying $30 USD for something that looks like someone hit print on a Word doc. So what are we talking about with Shattered Lances? Perfect bound, spiral bound, or something else? Clip art, crap art, or no art? Useful diagrams or not? I went to On Military Matters page and they don't even have a cover shot.

Although on a different, but related, subject, I spent $30 USD on a copy of Uniforms of the Seven Years War Prussia by Greenwood & Ball Ltd. This is a 12 page (24 'sides'), rather shabby, stapled booklet with only four, rather dated, colour pages last year. I bought it for two reasons. Firstly, I have the one on the Austrians. Secondly, the content is exceptional.

I tell you this tale to remind you of the truth we all know but often forget. A book is worth the sum of its information and ideas not its size or production value.

Rubbish, big, glossy rules are not worth the paper they are printed on. Good rules are worth an arm and a leg regardless of their size and production value.

I don't want a rule set for the skill of the photographer and typesetter: I want a book from an author with an enormous, flexible, clever, sublime brain.

Greenwood and Ball: Worth over a dollar a page: You bet is is – every penny!

I have played early crusaders vs. syrians 9 or 10 times. They were all great games with really contrasting armies. The battles played out similar to what I think it would have been like (according to the accounts that I have read).

Allen

Oops, meant to say that I have played it with Field of Glory rules. Sorry for that.