"PERRY AWI FRENCH" Topic

DISCLAIMER: This is not about Historical events but rather wargame usefulness. Please don't confuse the two. I fully understand the contribution that the French made in the struggle.

I am disappointed that the Perry brothers have invested their time in making an AWI French line for the sole reason that you can't really use them that much. Aside from Yorktown and a few other battles, they will not grace my table too frequently.
I would have much preferred that they sculpted some Partisans and Loyalist for use in the South. Both mounted and foot figures are lacking. This is just my own opinion, but I would much rather have seen the effort put into something that most people would get more use from as far as gaming the AWI.

I won't be happy until I see the 28 mm Leslie Nielsen figure
with the tail on his hat on my table.

Well,you're not the only one who feels this way. I was going to post something similar but feared all the negative feedback. I personally would like to see more American light troops, Northern Militia, and Continentals with assorted headgear.
I also will never use the French,as I don't plan on doing a Yorktown or Savannah game,or for that matter any of the West Indies battles. As they are the only appropriate and historical settings they were used.
But thats just my opinion.

Bob C.

You can rest assured there's more stuff on the way – there are already greens for more northern militia being worked on (although I don't know when they'll be released).

Just out of interest, what specific figures did you have in mind, nev? If you look at their last set of releases (before the French) there were half a dozen packs of Southern militia, as well as white and black troops in semi-civilian dress who can be used for early-war/newly-raised Continentals. You can also use existing figures to depict some of the Continentals raised to fill the gaps left after the surrender at Charleston – eg Gaskin's Virginia Bn could be depicted by British light infantry in roundabouts:-

link

Bear in mind that figure sculpting is art, not manufacturing, which means it is a mental thing as much as a physical one; sometimes a designer has to sidetrack in order to maintain his own interest and ensure he maintains quality.

I fully support Nevinsrip and Bob. The French contributed a great deal to the American victory at the strategic level, but there really are NO open field battles where they faced the british alongside a Continental army. Only three sieges, and two of them abortive. They are nice sculpts wearing gorgeous uniforms, but waaaaay down on my list of needed troop types.

The southern militia are awesome. We need more of that SORT of thing. For examples:

dismounted American light dragoons

irregular dragoons -- they served all over the south, including in Virginia against the Brtish invasions

George Rogers Clark's Illinois troops

Philadelphia Associators -- which will do as many other units

troops in hunting shirts of various cuts, wearing light infantry caps of various types, or round hats like Marines or the Associators

and others.

Super Max…I guess more mounted militia would be my first choice, as most of the backwoods battles began on horse. Not necessarily cavalry battles, but more as transporting troops into the battle.
I have all the latest Southern militia packs and love them.
As you say they are "semi-civilian" so I think that pure civilian dress would be another choice.
I am also interested in Kings Mountain, so some Loyalist troops would be great. The Scot and Scotch-Irish manner of dress would be especially useful for this.

This was in no way a knock on the Perry sculpting. They make such great figures that I wish that they had use their precious time to sculpt something more akin to my own tastes. Just personal preference.

Also,I know the Perry's have their own interests as well,which explains the Carlist Wars and Samurai for example. Both I think are very niche periods,especially the whole Carlist thing. I have no idea how popular that period is in GB or Europe,but it is virtually unknown here in the States.
In fact,I never heard of it till the figures came out..LOL!

I'm doing the AWI Southern Campaign and need figures to complete that and I'm kind of hit a dry spell. I know Lee's Legion is on the way and plan on getting them the second they are released, but other than that,I don't even see anything on their workbench pics on their site..

Bob

In no way do I speak for them, but I do know that both Alan and Michael read TMP regularly (they don't post because it would be impossible for them to do it on all the relevant threads, and this is just ONE forum….). They do take on board what people say and what they want – the Lee's Legion figures were in part a response to serious demand – and Alan does plan to do more Continentals and mounted stuff at some point.

Because of their other business interests, figure design is just one part of their lives and obviously has to take its place in the queue. I'm not sure who does the Samurai, but I think the Carlists are Michael's work (might be wrong), so they aren't detracting from AWI potential. The latter is a period that the Perrys have pretty much brought onto the wargaming scene by themselves.

I know this thread isn't a criticism of quality, and I also understand that it can be frustrating waiting for a particular type of figure – if it's any consolation, whenever I meet Alan I ask him when he's going to make AWI British Foot Guards as they're the one missing element of the Regulars (it's now a standing joke between us)!!!

While I applaud the veritable plethora of AWI French, I also wonder how many they actually need. I don't see the Haitian volunteers listed yet, and they ARE in Chartrand…
It would indeed be NICE if every single troop type that ever fought ina ny aconflict anywhere were represented, it is not actually necessary, except for the guy who buys them.
Butm they can be used in many mini-campaigns, and fictional campaigns.
I have always wanted to paint the Dillon rigiment for the AWI. Cool flag.

Lee's Legion came about because of TMP??? Oh, dear. I think I may have been the only one to ask for them on TMP. I guess I had better buy some at Cold Wars!

I would rather saw something new in the two ECW ranges….

The uniforms look sharp and provide a nice visual contrast with other units. I can see why one would collect them for that reason alone. As for wargaming, one can come up with a number of interesting battles by tweaking history slightly. What if Bouille rather than d'Estaing commanded at La Vigie? What if the British relief forced arrived earlier at Tobago? What if the British detected the French landings at Saint Eustatius? Etc. But if one doesn't care for "what if" history, then, yes, there is a problem. The war did not produce a battle between the French and English akin to a Saratoga or Germantown (to say nothing of the truly big battles of other periods).

But if one doesn't care for "what if" history, then, yes, there is a problem. The war did not produce a battle between the French and English akin to a Saratoga or Germantown (to say nothing of the truly big battles of other periods).
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That would be me! LOL! I RARELY if ever do the "what if" thing.There is too much actual interesting historical stuff out there than for me to do stuff that never happened.

Bob

There is always Newport, where the Frogs bugged out leaving Sullivan in the lurch. Battle ALMOST happened.
There is also Savannah. I don't think anybody knows what happened there.

You can always invade Canada with LaFayette too, where we will see his true colors.

This thread begs a question, at least peripherally, I have been meaning to ask for some time, viz., when putting together an army for AWI is it more common to paint units for a particular campaign or to put together a more generic type army. It seems if the former, there would be need to do more than one version of a unit (very different from Napoleonic gaming where, e.g., Brits in the stovepipe shako are pretty much usable for any campaign but Waterloo).

Thanks for your thoughts…

This thread begs a question, at least peripherally, I have been meaning to ask for some time, viz., when putting together an army for AWI is it more common to paint units for a particular campaign or to put together a more generic type army. It seems if the former, there would be need to do more than one version of a unit (very different from Napoleonic gaming where, e.g., Brits in the stovepipe shako are pretty much usable for any campaign but Waterloo).
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For the smaller scales you can get away with that more. the larger scales,28/40mm you have to be pretty specific,though you can "cheat" sometimes.
I'm doing the AWI Southern Campaign. Most of my units,all Perry figures,wore that type dress in the South,so,I'm kinda stuck.

Bob

Bob,

Like you I am doing 28s. So should I do mostly the generic Perry Brits (like AWI 53-58) and not bother with very specific types, like those in Saratoga uniform?

Like you I am doing 28s. So should I do mostly the generic Perry Brits (like AWI 53-58) and not bother with very specific types, like those in Saratoga uniform?
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Yes,you can get away with the cut down coat units for both theatres. The round jacket types can also be used at light troops for some Northern battles such as Germantown and Brandywine.

Bob

Generic Continentals are OK in the North for the most part and so are most New England and Mid Atlantic militias.
Where I run into a problem, is that in the South it's hot most of the year and bulky, woolen uniforms could never be tolerated by the locals. Imagine wearing a Continental coat in the SC or Georgia, July sun? I would think that the local partisans dressed for the season and probably never paid too much mind to uniform regulations. Trudging through swamps and marshlands calls for practicality over formality. Just my view.

May I humbly ask for a german grenadier in british bearskin from the Perries; just to complete a hessian french revolutionary army

This thread highlights a major problem with the AWI as a waragming period – the sheer number of different uniforms worn by the various contingents during the course of the war. We all have favourite figures we'd like to see to ensure that our collections are as comprehensive as possible; one might also ask why Perry Miniatures haven't released any Brunswick dragoons, South Carolina infantry, mounted Hessian jaegers, the Volunteers of Ireland etc.

But the reality is that Alan Perry has made 156 packs for the Perry range and 36 packs for the Foundry range: that's over 1,000 difference figures. Think of all the stuff that's already available that he didn't "have" to make: dismounted British dragoons, Queen's Rangers hussars and artillery, charging command for all the Hessians, Hessian amusettes, ammunition carts – how often will all that stuff appear on the table and would we rather we didn't have any of it on the basis that something else could have been made instead?

I'll bet that for each person who's been demanding American light infantry in caps there's another person who's been asking for French; what doesn't seem like a priority for one gamer is a necessity for another. So without wanting to sound too much like a Perry fanboy, let's be grateful for the huge amount of stuff that we have for this period and not gripe too much about everything else that ideally we'd like to have.

Giles

Gentlemen, I'll have to swim against the tide and say that I'm happy to see the French. Although there are existing French figures on the market just as there are other figures from the conflict, they are not Perry French and I think that we are all Perry fans. I would like to game Savannah, Yorktown and the Indies, both East and West so the appearance of the French is a welcome development. I would also like to see figures in the French colonial unifiorms and would like to see some artillery figures added to the line; however, I would also like to see everyone else's suggestions. Given the sheer volume of figures produced so far, perhaps everyone will get their wish eventually as it appears that the Perry's aren't going to abandon the period any time soon.

But the reality is that Alan Perry has made 156 packs for the Perry range and 36 packs for the Foundry range: that's over 1,000 difference figures. Think of all the stuff that's already available that he didn't "have" to make: dismounted British dragoons, Queen's Rangers hussars and artillery, charging command for all the Hessians, Hessian amusettes, ammunition carts – how often will all that stuff appear on the table and would we rather we didn't have any of it on the basis that something else could have been made instead?
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I was always wondering WHY they made those amusettes! When and where were they used???

Bob C.
BTW,I did buy them…

I bought them too, and will use them when I do Germantown.

Giles I think you are missing the theme here. There is no "gripe", more like wishful thinking, that's all.

Just from a financial standpoint (not that I think that the Perries are hurting for cash) I think that more packs of SC Infantry would be sold than Quens Ranger Hussars or Hessian amusettes. But it is not up to me.

In any case, we are all fans here of the twins.

No way are we griping! Most of us will buy darn near anything AWI they put out!
I myself have gotten all of the Queens Rangers packs,but have no need for the Hussars as in reality there was only one troop of them,and there were only used for scouting and whatnot.

Bob

I always hoped they would scultp gaiters onto all their infantry packs to give us some nice prussian infantry.

I always hoped they would scultp gaiters onto all their infantry packs to give us some nice prussian infantry.
>>
Sash and Saber have nice SYW Prussians for that…Gaiters weren't worn much in the AWI,and for good reason,they're a royal pain the you know what to put on!
I know from experience! Gaiters look cool on SOMEONE else,but not me! LOL!

Bob

Hey, I didn't think you guys were griping (although in Bob's case I thought he may have still been harbouring evil thoughts towards the Perries because of their highlanders in kilts :^) ). I was just trying to say that some of us are quite happy to see some French! I've always been interested in Savannah and also appreciate the opportunity to extend the period into the Caribbean actions.

A further thought is that we don't know how many French packs Alan intends to make – there may only be a dozen or so packs before work on other American or British troops (re)commences. In which case, you may not have too long a wait before other stuff arrives.

Giles

Doc McB had it right IMHO. We need Continentals in Hunting shirts with Light Infantry Caps. If I remember correctly the Maryland-Delware Continental Brigade was almost entirely clad in this manner during the Southern Campaign and the troops could be used for just about any Continental infantry contingent. While I love the Perry stuff, I did not order any French due to the limited use of said figures stated so well by others here. I did buy 4 Line and 2 Com packs of the Lee's Legion to serve not only as designed, but also for conversions.

Those wanting American dragoons in hunting shirts and Philadelphia Associators should pop over the the Eureka Miniatures website and log some 100 club orders: both figures have been up on the 100 Club site for some time.

link

Yes, I did so some time ago. I had submitted the Brunswick Muskteers and Grenadiers several years ago. They reached 100 in about two weeks and have been at 100 for years now. I have finally given up and bought some Sash & Saber Prussians to paint for my Brunswick contingent.

I would love to see some Guards flank and center packs. Eureka still plans to release the irregular militia cavalry.

I did buy 4 Line and 2 Com packs of the Lee's Legion to serve not only as designed, but also for conversions.
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I checked my 2 sources and it doesn't look like these are available here in the Colonies! :-(

Bob C.

(although in Bob's case I thought he may have still been harbouring evil thoughts towards the Perries because of their highlanders in kilts :^) ).
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LOL, No Giles. I just wish I could find a use for them myself!

Bob
The Anti-Highlanders in Kilts Clan!

As they say in the Rhineland: "Every fool is fond of his own cap!" I for my part like collecting regiments and not special battles or campaigns. So I'm glad with the French :-)))!
But there are a lot of figures I still miss, e.g. really well sculptured Rhode Island infantry with faces of Blacks, Mulattoes and Indians. And wasn't there a troop of French Cond้ dragoons at Savannah? And what about the Chasseur-volontaires de Saint-Domingue who behaved so bravely at Savannah?
There are lots of figures I could be tempted to buy!

But there are a lot of figures I still miss, e.g. really well sculptured Rhode Island infantry with faces of Blacks, Mulattoes and Indians.
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That RI Regt. was not ENTIRELY composed of blacks. Thats a common myth thats been passed down. The regiment had MANY black members,but was not entirely composed of blacks.
Blacks also served in other Continental and militia regiments throughout the War.

Bob

"I would love to see some Guards flank and center packs."

If I can show my ignorance of the period…how did the Guards' uniforms differ from line troops in the AWI? I seem to recall reading somewhere the Perry troops in campaign uniform would work for the Guards.

Thanks

"I would love to see some Guards flank and center packs."

If I can show my ignorance of the period…how did the Guards' uniforms differ from line troops in the AWI? I seem to recall reading somewhere the Perry troops in campaign uniform would work for the Guards.

Thanks
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I have 2 Bn's. of Guards and I use the packs with the cut down coats.
The combined Guards units began to modify their uniforms before they even got to America. Coats were cut down,lace was removed,and cocked hats had the lace removed and were cut down and turned up on one side. And they carried NO regimental colors!

Bob

Bob,

What you have described about was my understanding, hence my confusion about needing additional minis. I was planning on using Perry codes AWI53-58.

custos

The Guards flankers had a cap similar to one of the light infantry cap designs and the center co. had a round hat similar to the continental marines.

Thanks, Doc Ord. Where is the best place to find illustrations?

custos

The Guards flankers had a cap similar to one of the light infantry cap designs and the center co. had a round hat similar to the continental marines.
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And their grenadiers similar caps as the 5th foot but in felt.

Bob

I really don't see that there's a problem here. I have wanted the Perry's to do the French for ages and for one think the models are excellent. People are quite right when pointing out that French involvement was indeed minimal when it came to field engagements but no AWI force can be complete without them, especially if one has interests in running campaigns for the Southern and in some respects northern theatres later in the war. This does fall into the "what if" category but there were literally dozens of times where direct French involvement could have been actuated.

I specifically bring to attention the actions before Yorktown or even earlier. If Greene had been crushed at GCH a relief force would have been necessary and probably would have been very similar if not identical to the relief sent by Washington a few months later. We have played a couple of Southern theatre campaigns and on both occasions there has been French involvement, albeit limited. I will only collect probably 5 or 6 battalions and no more but I do think for the avid AWI gamer (as anyone who knows me will know that I am)the French are an essential part of any collection; if not historically then definitely to partake in those what if battles that really could have been reality.

A good source of info for anyone interested in how the Foot Guards looked in America:-

link

In addition to the flank companies (who looked more or less identical apart from the grenade/"LI" badge on the front of the hat-cap), I have asked Alan if he would consider doing the centre companies in small-brimmed round hats – looking much like Continental Marines or mid-war Virginia Line – and with slung blankets instead of packs, and to have them doubling with trailed arms. This would allow them to be used for any campaign from Long Island onwards, but they could also be used to represent Continentals as well.

If you look at pak AW100 on the Perry website, the "Eclaireur personality figure", i.e. the guy with outstretched hand asking the questions, is in the dress of a Guards officer (deliberately sculpted and painted as such). Note the funny shaped hat and the lace edging on the facings.

Supercilius,

Thanks for the info and especially the link.

GiloUK… I just received that very nice pack and wondered about that figure -- sadly the Hessian Fusilier holding the captured officer's sword was damaged :(

custos

I am grateful that the Perrys haven't shown an interest in the Seven Years War. It would be a strain on my pocket book. So keep those French and Lee's Legion figures coming!

We are soooooo spoiled for choices these days.

Hello all. I posted this on another line, but seeing that it is here where the Perry French are being discussed, I'd like to ask what exactly are the differences in uniform between the French army of the period and the Spanish? I would like to use Perry Miniatures new 28mm AWI French for Spanish, but I am not certain of what to actually look out for in terms of differences. I have 2 or 3 books on the subject but am not convinced the representation of the regiments is correct. For example,I too agree with RudyNelson on the lack of real use of the helmet on the American continent, and would not use at 28mm size, Compagnies Franches de la Marine figures for late 18th century Spanish as many wargamers propose. Any advice is valid, please!

I have to swim against the tide was well, the French are for myelf a much neglected topic in the AWI and I am more than happy that the Perrys do such a nice range, moreover the late style French are usefull for the French Revolution.

Without Rochambeau the Rebels wouldn't have decided anything and would not have dared the Yorktown campaign.

Contrary to mythology the Hessian Kassel infantry retained their gaiters and apparently only one unit switched to overalls.

Contrary to mythology the Hessian Kassel infantry retained their gaiters and apparently only one unit switched to overalls.
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Oh really??
Would that be Von Bose? It is also well known that Brunswickers surely did not keep them.

I'm interested to know where you came about with this info.

Bob

95th,

Yes, I suspect von Bose was the exception, and also Ewald's jaeger company in the south (they were given some blue and white striped material by Cornwallis). You are correct that the Brunswickers adopted overalls, but there was a lot of sailcloth provided to Carleton by the Royal Navy which was used to produce overalls for all the troops in Canada. I may be wrong, but I think this was one of the British modifications that the Hesse Cassel ruler specifically refused to allow his men to adopt.

I believe Rob Sulentic ("Hessian Bob" from the vonDonop website) has posted quotes on TMP a number of times showing that the "ad hoc" flanker companies formed by the Hesse Cassel troops in 1778 onwards had gaiters. I've also seen one from a member of the recreated Erbprinz regiment that their historical counterparts wore theirs at Yorktown (sadly I've lost it, but it was correcting a comment from me that they all wore overalls which is why I remembered it).