"800 Fighting Englishmen" Topic

I am looking for rules to game large actions on the NW Frontier with perhaps 3 or 4 British and Indian battalions, a couple of squadrons of Indian cavalry and a mountain battery against perhaps 100 Pathans. I know The Sword and the Flame are for skirmishes and I was considering 800 Fighting Englishment which I understand is at battalion level for units.

Can anyone comment on how these rules compare to some of the newer colonial rules such as Black Powder or Battles for Empire?

Is 800FE a stand alone set of rules of a supplement for TSATF?

Alan

I am looking for rules which give a nice fast moving game with a feel for the period.

800FE is a stand alone game from a company that produces TSATF supplements. I just got Black Powder and while it looks as if it may be what you want, the rules so far don't do much for me(although the rule book is beautiful!). BFE is an outstanding set of rules, but it is definitely more complex than any of the others you've mentioned and uses a movement system similar to Fire and Fury.

That's Good Thing. I've been pondering ways to co-opt F&F's movement system for a while…

Dear Alan,

At the risk of muddying the waters, I must disgagree with aegiscg47 and affirm that 800FE IS--repeat--IS a DEPENDENT Variant of TSATF, requiring the original book for many of the game basics.

800FE itself is simply the instructions on how to transition from standard TSATF to the Battalion level game.

All of which is simply to emphasize the point that 800FE is a perfectly good system to apply to the game types you described.

If you like TSATF, you'll love 800FE for these larger, more ambitious actions.

If you wish to learn more about alternative systems, I'm sure following posts will be of great help.

TVAG

At the risk of muddying the waters, I must disgagree with aegiscg47 and affirm that 800FE IS--repeat--IS a DEPENDENT Variant of TSATF, requiring the original book for many of the game basics.

Having read it, I can confirm the above as true. 800FE dispenses with about 75% of the TSATF rules, and introduces new ones in place, but you will still need the TSATF rules to refer to the remaining 25% that have been kept. IMHO the end result would be a lot more readable if they had written it as a stand-alone ruleset, so you would not need to refer back and forth between two books.

Mind me, I have played 800FE once, and wasn't too impressed (but then again I am not really wild about TSATF). The game pitted Zulus versus British – it was quite easy for the Zulus to make it into close combat, but once in close quarters it was difficult for either side to cause any significant damage to the other.

Yes, I wasn't trying to mislead Alan, but I should have clarified that 800FE is at a different scale than TSATF, so the feel is completely different than playing in a low level skirmish game. I'm glad TVAG clarified that a bit.

Thank for the information chaps.

It is somewhat off-putting having to flick between two rule books.

To a great extent, the "standard" colonial warfare rules may not be that relevant to the NW Frontier. After all, we are not talking about masses of Zulus/Mahdists hurling themselves against the mass fire-power of British squares.

The tactics of the NW Frontier were totally different as the regulars were not fighting on ground of their choosing with clear fields of fire against natives who obligingly formed in nice dense masses. Instead, we are looking at the Pathans keeping up a running sniping fire as the Imperial forces pushed their way along narrow valleys, trying to "crown the heights", ever conscious of the ghazi rush against stragglers or the rearguard unit.

I think, to a large extent, combat on the NWF was more imposing the Imperial will on the natives than actually inflicting devastating losses and the tactics required to do so were a lot more subtle than forming square and waiting for the natives to charge. If the Imperial forces got above the Pathans by "crowning the heights", the locals would simply fall back to the next position and it would have to start all over again, until the objective was reached: usually a village at the end of the valley. The real fun started on the withdrawal which is where the rear guard units were most vulnerable: they have to keep the heights secure without getting cut off from the main units in the valley below.

Any suggestions for rules which could accomplish these objectives would be appreciated.

I have been pointed also in the direction of Field of Battle by Piquet: can anyone comment on these as suitable for the NWF?

Our group uses Field of Battle for a lot of colonial action. Many think that the FoB system (aka PK lite) too chaotic, but for colonials I think it is perfect…

I thought Piquet had a colonial supplement called Din of Battle: is this no longer available?

Can Field of Battle, which I note covers some 200 years of black powder warfare, manage the like of the NWF which is distinct from the formed battles of the Zulu wars and the Soudan?

FOB doesn't contain army lists for the NWF. That doesn't necessarily mean that it wouldn't work for that era though.

On the NW Frontier, Imperial troops usually outnumbered to Pathans, Afridis or whatever, as well.

I'm a big fan of The Great Game rules which are designed for large battles. They used to be on the WWW but seem to have vanished. I do have a copy I can send you if you like.

Be warned they need some explanation (The movement sequence especially which is simultaneous but the author doesn't say so!) but are fast and simple.

Lots of scenarios and one can fight/play in Africa, India, China et al.

din of battle is still available, but FoB is a easier game to play, great fun and there are period ammendments, Im building a Britsh and Zulu collection. As for FoB being chaotic, they are no more chaotiuc thn real warfare, but if you like the robot instructions of gewnerals led by telepathy carry on, fob have different abilities etc giving a range of commanders and subordinates far beyond any other set of rules