"Gripping Beast - "Dark Sails"" Topic

From the Gripping Beast newsletter:

I SEE A DARK SAIL ON THE HORIZON!
The Vikings Are Coming!

Emerging from the sea-mist are the first fruits of our endevours in an exciting new area………. 28mm Plastic Figures!

Naturally enough our first box will be Viking Hirdmen. On the left is one of the resin 'three-ups' that Darren couldn't resist painting. Nice.

Next issue we will have more details of the box and its contents plus plenty of pictures. We will also be letting you know how you can pre-order these ferocious Norsemen through a preferential newsletter special deal which will include a special limited edition metal figure.

If you can't wait, pop along to see us at the Vapnartak show at York Racecourse this Sunday (7th Feb) where we will have some of the resins on display.

Ah Gallowglass, you being Irish you must be a bit moved by all that… being in part decendeded from Yorkshire vikings I am…

Lets hope they contain some fully-moulded figures. By the time you construct the wargames factory plastics you have aged a year. Down with plastics you have to build, I want to play wargames!

yes I think plastics are a bit of a false economy

I've always thought the benefit to plastics is that once they are finished you don't have to assemble them again. Unlike other figures the spears don't break out of their hands if they are dropped, typically, shields don't come off when some less-than-careful person picks the figure up and on and on.

Of course they also take less time to assemble if you have to assemble the metal figure too.

In many viking ranges you have to glue the shield on at least. If they have spears then probably those as well.

If you take a foundry viking and a wargames factory viking both armed with spears I bet it would take less time to assembe and prime the WF viking from package to painting stick.

In the long run, I've found, that if you compare plastics with metals, if you have to assemble both, the plastics take far less time.

I'm looking forward to another company taking the plunge into plastics.

yes I think plastics are a bit of a false economy

Not really my hobby time is free. Time I have cash I don't the Roman and Celt armies I'm building in plastic would have been unaffordable in metal to me.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I rather like assembling miniatures (as long as they are well-designed for construction). I find it a pleasant hobby task for when i don't feel like painting.

Not really my hobby time is free. Time I have cash I don't the Roman and Celt armies I'm building in plastic would have been unaffordable in metal to me.

The vast majority of the wargamers I know are the other way round. Exidence? piles of unpainted lead.

"If you take a foundry viking and a wargames factory viking both armed with spears I bet it would take less time to assembe and prime the WF viking from package to painting stick.
In the long run, I've found, that if you compare plastics with metals, if you have to assemble both, the plastics take far less time."

I get up; I read stuff like this without a cup of coffee yet; and I wonder if I've been transported to an alternate universe.

In order to beat a metal figure with shield and spear, you'd have to just slap plastic pieces together with no care as to fit. To make them fit in positions resembling a human being, it takes time to "adjust" the plastics.

And yes, I'm fully aware from seeing various people's attempts, that many simply *don't* care, and just slap them together willy-nilly.

Allen

I think it depends on how well cast the metal figures are. Similar to the above comment regarding people just slapping together the plastic figures, it depends how much someone cares about filing down the flash and mould lines from their metal figures.

From the look of the 3 up picture I've seen, I'd guess they are multipart with separate arms and heads.

I'm also looking forward to combining the Wargames Factory ones with them for even more variation.

Guy

With a metal figure you have to use CA to get it to stay together. CA takes a while to harden and happens to bond to your fingers better than it does to metal.

The WF vikings come in, essentially, 6 parts: Body with legs, l. arm, r. arm, head, shield and weapon.

When you use a proper glue on plastics you can stick an arm on and let the glue get tacky and then position it while you are putting other parts on.

So if you have 20 plastic vikings you get the bodies and heads cleaned, put the heads on the bodies, clean the r. arm while letting the head finish gluing on, making adjustments if necessary.

And so on.

With metal figures they take a lot longer to clean to start with, sometimes not so much as the mold lines aren't there but most often there are mold lines and they are much harder to remove than on plastic figures. Then you have to glue all the spears in the hands and instead of just plopping a drop of glue in place and moving on you have to hold the spear in the hand until the glue bonds.

Then there is priming. Metail figures take longer to prime than plastics. With human sized 28mm plastic figs you spray them once on one side, once on the other and they are primed.

With metals I typically have to spray them once on one side, once on the other, glue them to their painting sticks and spray them on both sides and the top again. At about 20 minutes or so for the primer to dry, which is about average, this takes an additional hour over plastic figures.

Perhaps it is possible to do it by hand with one or two figs at a time and have it take the same amount of time but doing 1 or 2 figures at a time is something I just don't have the free time to undertake.

I've not primed plastics, myself, but would say that spray priming metals may take a total time of around 1 hour, but only 5-10 minutes of that is actual spraying time.

I primed some minis today, and between spray coats put a wash on, did the washing up, tidied up a bit and watched most of an episode of "Monk".

Simon

It isn't time that you are priming but it is time before you can start painting. If you buy your figs at a convention, get home and want to get started on them you will probably get started on the plastic figs faster.

But I'll tell you guys what, I'm willing to be proven wrong. Anyone that wants to see can meet me at Cold Wars, if I get the time off to go, if not Historicon, and we'll see. I'll take 8 WF Vikings, you take 8 Foundry vikings and we'll see who gets their figs ready to paint first.

well I took an hour to assemble 6 Naploenic plastics..if you paint for a living…time..and some of the Victrix don't look that right, they all have Ed Sulivan necks,I was firmly back to metals in about an hour and 5 minutes..

Did you try the Perry ones?

"It isn't time that you are priming but it is time before you can start painting." Most of my figures have matured for 4-5 years plus in darkened boxes; another hour is neither here nor there! ;-)

Siomon

I find plastic figures easier to work with and I enjoy the posing options that I get with multi-part plastics. Choosing components and putting the figures together is one of the things I enjoy about the hobby, so I don't count that time as time lost or wasted money.

Those looking for plastics with minimal assembly could probably do well to check the HäT 28mm range:

hat.com/current28.html

The latest GB figures are too large to mix in with even the Foundry Vikings from looking at the one pack I have.

The existing GB ranges vary in size from small to large 28mm; it's just too soon to judge how big the plastics will be.

Simon

I was wondering about size as well. A couple of months ago I ordered a several packages of vikings, and Saxons from GB. I didn't realize what a size difference there was between there older figures, and thier viking raider figures. The viking raiders are just monsters (a full head taller than the older releases in most cases) had I known I wouldn't have orderd them. I kind of thought they would have made thier new sculps compatible with existing lines, but to me at least, they are not.

pictors,I much prefer Perrys and actually quite enjoy the Warlord ECW..having bought many of them at a really cheap price that may have affected my attitude but as they are a self inflicted indulgence with no time requirement my feelings toward them is differnt..and they are much the nicer figures as well..Victix are so very …cluttered..and kneckless..

There is no arguing with tastes, but I will never regard plastic minis as more than an unsatisfactory substitute for metal. Ditto resin.

I hope GB does not abandon their superb line of metals for plastic.

metal minis take longer to prime? what are you talking about??

I've just bought the Wargames Factory multipart plastic British Colonial Firing Line. They are great figures but are a pain to assemble. I don't usually mind assembling plastic figures but these ones are sooooo fiddly it's started to do my head in!

metal minis take longer to prime because they are metal and in certain parts of the mini there are recesses that it is difficult to get to with spray primer.

These recesses exist on plastic models as well but the primer gets them more easily and when it doesn't you don't have shiny metal sticking out. The fact that the paint sticks better to the plastic than the metal minis helps too so when you are pring something and you turn it over to prime the other side the paint won't be rubbed off. Not that that happens often but it happens way more often with metal figs, particular horses, than with plastics.

"There is no arguing with tastes"

Clearly not but plastics figures do have properties that make them objectively better than metal miniatures.

"Clearly not but plastics figures do have properties that make them objectively better than metal miniatures"

Now I've stumbled into Allen's alternative universe.

I hope GB does not abandon their superb line of metals for plastic.

Why would they?

I'm yet to be convinced by plastics for ancients, although I am impressed by what the Perrys and Victrix are doing with Napoleonics. If I was doing nappys, I'd have bought a box or two to try.

"Now I've stumbled into Allen's alternative universe."

I'm assuming that you haven't really used plastic miniatures to any great degree and remain pretty ignorant about the properties that make them better than metals.

1) They don't chip. You can carry plastic figures around in a bag and when they bonk into each other they do not chip. If a metal fig hits against another metal fig during a game there is a chance, even after properly sealing the figs, that they will chip. This won't happen with plastics.

2) They are lighter than metal figures, this makes armies of them simpler to transport.

3) They stay assembled and are more sturdy than metal figures. If you drop a metal figure and a plastic figure from a gaming table the metal figure is far more likely to break than the plastic figure.

4) They are faster to assemble and clean than metal figures. This assumes similar figures. Obviously a one piece napoleonic French infantry fig in metal is going to take less time to assemble than a 6 part viking from WF, but the same French figure will probably take more time to clean than the Plastic 2 part model from Perry miniatures.

5) They prime faster than metal figures.

Again, I'm not asking anyone to just believe me on this. I'm more than happy to demonstrate any of these facts. Show up with some metal figs you have painted at Cold Wars and we will run them and some plastic figs I have painted through various experiments designed to test these properties.

The transdimensional differentials might make it difficult to link up:

picture

Allen ("Me am stupid")

My issue with Wargames Factory Gauls is that after gluing they look like they are doing armed calisthenics- arms are popping in every possible direction. Placing them on narrow heavy foot base is about impossible. So- thanks, but no thanks. I am hoping that Warlord Plastic Marian Romans are more compact…

Pictors..you are excersising you perogative of irony here? or you truly believe the weird things you have said..if so bizarro world is here

"Pictors..you are excersising (sic) you perogative (sic) of irony here? or you truly believe the weird things you have said..if so bizarro world is here"

Can anyone show me where any of the things I said are not true?

Do plastic figures chip?

Are they more brittle than metal figures? Take a plastic roman with a pilum from Warlord Games and a metal roman from Foundry. Assemble them both and then paint them both. Drop them both off of your gaming table onto a hard floor. Do you think the metal figure would stay together.

Pictor's lives in the real universe here-- you guys denying the facts he has stated are the ones in Bizarro World! 8)=

"1) They don't chip."

K – No. Instead, they break, are ofen subject to degradation and brittleness with age and become downright fragile.

"2) They are lighter than metal figures, this makes armies of them simpler to transport."

K – True. This makes them more subject to accidental displacement on the table and being knocked over, as well as contributing to the sense of being insubstatial tat.

"3) They stay assembled and are more sturdy than metal figures."

K – They are more fragile, more brittle, and depending on the glue or cement will come apart in time. On the other hand, if you lose a plastic you really have not lost much.
I will give you that.

"4) They are faster to assemble and clean than metal figures. This assumes similar figures."

K – Simply untrue.

"5) They prime faster than metal figures."

K – Simply inane.

I am compelled to use plastic tat in order to play a proprietal game such as WH, or WH40K, but for historicals?
No.

The masses of old minis I have gotten from Ebay show a considerable difference in durability and resale potential between metals and plastics, with plastics coming off the worst in both categories.

Plastics can fairly be defined as lightweight and cheap I suppose. For those who are comfortable with the insubstantial and shoddy they are probably fine.

@Pictors
I would agree with your 1 and 2, on point 3 I would probably concede though there are situations where metal does stand up to knocks where plastic snaps, but 4 and 5 .. no way is that even slightly true, in fact 4 its the exact opposite

I did get a taste of the sturdiness of the plastic models today. I was taking a few out to the garage to be primed (which took exactly the same time for the metal and plastic figs on the tray) and dropped one. I was mentally already turning around to go back in for repairs, but the figure was completely intact. ~42" fall onto a concrete floor. Didn't even come loose from the washer. I can vouch from experience that such a fall would break every joint of a metal multi-part figure.

I'm using mine for skirmish games (so are individually based and not packed onto a nice flat tray) and the light weight is actually a plus, since the figured when based on their 3/4" washers are quite bottom heavy. Many of my metal figures tend to take a nose dive if they are placed on any inclined surface, etc.

Curiously, I have used both metal and plastic figures in a game and my head has not blown up or spun off into another dimension… Gee, maybe all this bitching back and forth is not such a big deal…

"K – No. Instead, they break, are ofen subject to degradation and brittleness with age and become downright fragile."

My metal figures break far more often than my plastics. I don't know what plastic figures you have but I have plastics from 1992 that are still fully functional and are gamed with. They show no sign of degrading, have not broken down and are in no way fragile.

"K – True. This makes them more subject to accidental displacement on the table and being knocked over, as well as contributing to the sense of being insubstatial tat."

Actually, since you can still put them on metal bases they are less likely to fall over during a game as all the weight is on the base, they are certainly less likely to fall over when being moved on a movement tray.

The last part is subjective and I'm only discussing objective qualities here. I value my plastic figure more highly than my metal ones.

"K – They are more fragile, more brittle, and depending on the glue or cement will come apart in time. On the other hand, if you lose a plastic you really have not lost much.
I will give you that."

Again you sound completely ignorant as to the qualities of plastic figures. I'll challenge you on this one. Bring a fully painted unit of 20 metal 28mm figs to any of the HMGS conventions. I'll bring a unit of 20 plastic 28mm figures fully painted.

We will put the figs on a movment tray and push them off the table. I'll bet you another 20 man unit of painted figures that the plastic figures come out better than the metal figures.

""4) They are faster to assemble and clean than metal figures. This assumes similar figures."

K – Simply untrue.

"5) They prime faster than metal figures."

K – Simply inane"

Again, come to the show, we'll start with a 20 figs each, say napoleonic French. You start cleaning and the metals and I'll start with the plastics, then we'll prime them and get them on sticks ready to be painted. I bet the plastics are finished first.

You can clean them with a dull knife, no files required. I just don't think you know what you are talking about at all. It sounds like your prejudice has prevented you from really working with plastics.

I have no experience with plastics, but i am interested. i will say that I do have lots of GB metals and one things I find is that attaching spears, swords, axes and shields on to them is both time consuming and temporary. their open cupped hands seem well designed to hold the spears, but getting them to stay is almost impossible. I know that I, and plenty of others, plan on arriving at game, unpack the army, unpack the supper glue and then start re attaching the spears.
I like the heavy feel of metals and some plastics do look a bit spastic when assembled. The ones that look good I do wonder how much tinkering is required to get them right. I will most likely give them a try at some point.
Also as a resident of Australia anything to cut down on shipping costs is appreciated.

I love Plastics. I have never had any of the problems described by some on this board (that could be due to many years of professional work on fabrication that dealt with knowing materials and adhesives, but I think that most who work with plastics would find that any glue made for styrene – not superglue – will work wonders).

My only complaint is spears and swords. I'd love to see some lines of brass components for the plastic's lines so that the swords and spears don't eventually need to be fixed (my LotR Rohirrim have had to have most of the spears pinned or a rod inserted to keep them from breaking – I now do this upon assembly to cut down on time later. I didn't like the short Gondorin Spears, so I replaced all of them with longer ones, which removed the issue there).

Otherwise, I can clean and assemble (including making completely invisible mold lines) a plastic figure in about half the time it takes to do the same on a metal figure.

My plastics have always painted up well, been extraordinarily durable, never degraded (its plastic guys, come on--you have to recycle the bastards because they don't degrade!)

Their light weight and resistance to damage from dropping is a BIG factor me, as my 28mm figures often get trotted out at clubs and 'cons, where many strange, and surprisingly clumsy hands will work with them for hours.

My all metal 28mm figures are slowly warping the plastic cases that I've got them in for storage--a couple will no longer close properly in fact.

You guys complaining about plastics clearly are not plastics users. They are limited mainly by availability and the sculpting is actually rather good on them. Certainly comparable to my Foundry Ancient Germans, particularly the sweeping poses which are so annoying when trying to base them. (True of both).

I am buying 100% plastics these days. Cheaper, easier to work with, more durable, and just as good if not a better product.

Shan

No if only someone would start doing 15mm plastics…….