"Greatest Allied general of the war" Topic

Probably also will have some controversy: Zhukov. Let's face it, the war in the west was a sideshow. If it means anything to say that any single man was most responsible for beating the Germans, it was probably Zhukov.

PATTON!

Damn. I wanted to set up a book on how quickly some schmuck would nominate Patton.

Hey Charlie :)

Oh, okay.

Bill Slim. Did a huge amount with very little in the way of resources. Modest, not an egomaniac or a glory hunter (see above – also Montgomery)

We went to the same school (although he'd left by the time I got there).

A second vote for Bill Slim. 'Defeat into Victory' is still required reading at Dartmouth, and excerpts from it are pasted all over the walls at the various leadership schools. I particularly like his advice about knowing your plt better than their mothers know them, which ones will get by with a quiet word, and which ones need a 'kick in the pants'! (Although obviously that last bit has been rephrased slightly in todays modern caring service…)

Another vote for Slim.

American – Simpson, quite unassuming, just got on with his job.

British – Alexander, did an excellent job in Italy IMHO

Dash and flare – Maurice Rose led from the and died there :-)

Alexander.

Slim. Defeated the Japanese Field Army, in the field, twice.

At the sharp end, it's hard to argue against Slim.

Overall, I would consider George C. Marshall at the top of the form.

In the Great Commanders TV series, the only WW2 General mentioned was Zhukov. Up there with Alexander and Napoleon.

Do you want style or do you want to win?

The greatest General in terms of girth was Goering of course.

The greatest self publicists were, in no particular order, Rommel, Montgomery and Patton.

Greatest idiot? Percival.

The one with greatest style was Generalleutnant Baade, one time CO of 90th Light who distinguished himself by going into battle in a kilt, won the tank destruction badge and shot an SS officer who dared to give him an order.

Who will be remembered in popular culture 100 years from now? Patton, Montgomery and Rommel.

Oops, missed the other thread. Oh well, whatever.

Slim, I've always had a sneaking liking for Konev though. The Lvov-Sandomierz Operation is an under appreciated gem.

Slim

Yet another vote for Slim. I have a soft spot for Lees too.
And always thought Gavin (82nd Airbourne),the finest allied example of an insightful, fighting general.

Shocked that Mark Clark and MacArthur was left off the 'self publicist' list.

Slim for western Allies. A victor, strategic thinker and leader.

Zhukov for Soviets, although he killed many more of his own men in battle than he did Germans. (Persistent attacking in Mars, race against Konev at Berlin, Seelowe heights.)

Gavin is a good call, as is Ridgeway. Other candidates would be Dempsey and Crerar, Wavell and Auchinleck whose battle plans won Alamein.

So no-one has mentioned O' Connor. Forgotten man again.

I know he wasn't a general, but I vote FIELD-MARSHALL MONTGOMERY!

I don't like Lieutenant General Mark Clark though.

"Shocked that Mark Clark and MacArthur was left off the 'self publicist' list."

Who? their PR departments obviously weren't as good as The Big Three:)

Alright, if you want a serious contribution, Wavell.

Fought some of the most complex combined arms operations of the war over a vast area and did it on a shoestring. Much under-rated. Lost it a bit later in the war (as did O'Connor). Slim only ever had to look in one direction.

Poor old Sovs aren't getting much love are they? inflicted 80% of the Wehrmachts losses, picked themselves up off the floor after appalling defeats and ended up both taking Berlin and hauling theselves to superpower status. I'll stick with Zhukov for that one.

It's not all about killing the enemy, keeping your own men alive whilst doing so is a key requirement for the top general post. Zhukov didn't make the 2nd interview based on that

"Lightning Joe" Collins was probably the best Allied corps commander. Even Montgomery thought highly of him :)

I would like to nominate Orde Wingate.
He turned regular conscripts into special forces.

On the east front I nominate general winter.

Odd how Percival seemed to perform reasonably well prior to his most publicised actions. Whoever decided to denude the area of air cover should at least share the blame.

while probably not the "greatest", I'd like to recognize Lucian Truscott for leadership under duress, especially when dealing with difficult superior officers

Well, off the top of my head for the Soviets you've got Mikhail Katukov or Semyon Bogdanov.

But, though he was purged and executed before the War in tersm of a thinker and probable architect of victory you've got Mikhail Tukhachevski. The man who had Deep Operations codified and adopted by the RKKA starting in 1929 and fully into the Field Regulations in 1936. When Guderian was still playing with plywood 'tanks' IIRC ;o). Enough of his ideas and training survived the Purges to give the RKKA the base it needed to defeat the Axis.

As for General Winter it is a well known fact that he was so good the weather on the Soviet side of the line was a balmy 22 degrees Celsius with clear skies throughout November, December, January and February. :o)

Wingate created an excellent force, but he was less good at actually making the best use of it, his benefits were of the strategic, the tactical sucess of the Chindits was due to his Brigadiers on the ground. By the same token, Jack Churchill, Simon(Shimi)Fraser, Peter Young and Louis Mountbatten also qualify.

One of the advantages Zhukov has was that his troops knew the enemy might shoot them, but Zhukov certainly would, going forwards was then safer than going backwards…

For a Russian general look no further than Lieutenant-General Popov, defender of Leningrad.

Greatest Allied general of the war? Hitler. More single-handedly responsible for the Allied victory than anyone else.

General Winter.
-Kle.

For the greatest contribution to allied victory I'd nominate an Admiral, Admiral Nagumo of the IJN.

Failed to launch the third wave at Pearl Harbour thereby leaving the USN with a fully functional forward naval base and enough fuel to operate for several months. If he had knocked these out the USN would have been seriously shafted.

He then moves into the India ocean were he lets the British Far East survive, and again doesn't follow up on the attacks on naval bases. This meant that the Japanese in Burma were always looking over their shoulders waiting for an amphibious assault.

Finally his Piece De Resistance Midway. Throw away the primary weapon of your armed forces in one major of a battle.

He probably caused more Japanese casualties than John Wayne and Sgnt Rock combined.

Fatman

Oh and if you want a serious answer Slim no contest

Whoever was responsible for Operation Bagration. Zhukov?

Also, and I can't believe I'm saying this, there's a great entry on wikipedia. On "Soviet deep battle."

For all his faults…

Field Marshal Sir Claude John Eyre Auckinlech

Alan Brooke. Even Monty deferred to him. Kept Winston form making to many mistakes to. His War Diaries 1939-1945 are fascinating.

Another vote for Slim.

Truscot

Mikasa "It's not all about killing the enemy, keeping your own men alive whilst doing so is a key requirement for the top general post. Zhukov didn't make the 2nd interview based on that"

Actually, what it's all about is winning the war. Zhukov did.

Zhukov or STAVKA?

Orde Wingate.

Zhukov. Jealous old soviet generals notwithstanding.

Well, how about Dwight Eisenhower? While he was not much (actually, at all) a battlefield commander he did effectively manage a bunch of prima donnas and got the job done

Failing that, Zhukov

I find it difficult to narrow it down to a single general so even at the risk of being deemed non-responsive, I'll offer the following:

West – Patton

North Africa – Auckinlech

East – Zhukov

Far East – Slim

to Zukhov supporter can I remind Mars?

Koniev and Rokossovsky have my support, but as far Zukhov is concerne he did not win the war above anyone else, he was not brilliant (except at Nomohan) and usually was average or belo average. He had the chance to wrote his history and was Stalin man, beacuse he was usually able to interpret the man wishes ev en if they were fully stupid.

British… if I have to pick one.. Slim hands down.

American: probably Patton and MacArthur. The were enormous egoes, but they were able to think. Also MacArthur had to work in a coaltion environment and inter service rivalry much stronger than Ike.

Ike? he was a politician sorry… good at that, but not a good military man.

One thing I want to underline is that while Allies (russian included) had not a lot of shining stars they, except some aberration like Clark, Blamey, Wingate (sorry he went nuts after Quebec) or the 1941 russian political cronies, were able to produce sound generals. They were professional capable of wage operations on a total scale. Germans and Japanese produced many more tactical geniuses, but more often than not they lacked professional judgement in matter like logistics, long range planning, command and control and the like.

SO it is east to remember the axis names, but in the end Soviet, US, Imperial and even French (my fave is de Lattre) produced a much more effective system.

Bill Slim. Why are we still discussing this? 8-)

" "Lightning Joe" Collins was probably the best Allied corps commander. Even Montgomery thought highly of him :)"

Collins is definately my US vote as the best co-ordinating commander
Gavin is my close runner up.

Slim would be a tie in first place with Montgomery for higher command.

Patton was the best schewrpunkt leader of the war on both sides.

Well, I've said this before, but I believe that Eisenhower deserves a spot near the top of the list simply for his decision to "Go" on June 6th. It was an incredibly courageous decision when it would have been sooooo easy to postpone and wait for better weather.

Eisenhower and Alexander are the only "Allied" commanders I can think of. The others mentioned were single-nation commanders. (Well, Rommel commanded an alliance of Italians and Germans.)

hmm Patton pitches in on post 2 and we don't really hear of him after that…..(All TMP'ers shoot up in my estimation)

Not sure about Gavin, I`d have to rate Maxwell Taylor as a better tactician.

So the Canadians and Poles in 21st Army Group are British?

And on those grounds it has to be Slim, look at the nationalities and different languages that made up 14th Army.