| GreatScot72 | 04 Feb 2010 6:57 a.m. PST |
There is no question that many of us have been left high and dry after dealing with BTD. It seems there is a recent spate of victims after their latest 50% off sale. If you are like me, you would really like BTD USA make a serious effort to redress the wrongs done to their customers. And failing that, you would like to see reasonable, appropriate action of a legally and ethically conscionable kind taken agaist them. As I stated in today's earlier thread, I have been involved in a similar situation over at Bartertown, and by getting organized and taking action together, we were able to put enough pressure on the offending party to prompt a response. In that case, local law enforcement got involved after we provided evidence that the party was systematically defrauding people. I am not sure of all our options in this case, but I thinik it is worth investigating. These are the types of actions I am thinking of:
-Composing a statement of intent and sending to BTD USA from all who wish to be be a part. The statement of intent would outline our grievences and demand immediate action. -Contacting appropriate law enforcement agencies and providing them with documentation of our grievences. I have seen other internet based businesses get investigated for selling products online, taking money, and not providing goods or services. If this is a large-scale pattern, some agency might be interested. -Contacting consumer advocacy groups. Not sure how effective this might be in this case, but once I actually got results from a deadbeat company after filing a grievence with the local chamber of commerce. -Informing other gamers and collectors. Word of mouth is pretty powerful. I am sure if everyone involved actively informed their friends and contacts, we could put a serious dent in their business. -Any other reasonable (and attainable) suggestions I can already hear some of you calling this effort naive and pointless. Please save your breath. I'm stubborn.  I also know the whole "you should have known better" argument. True, but that still doesn't excuse BTD's actions. I don't think those of us who have been stung by their shoddy business practices should take this lying down. This is what I would like. If you have an outstanding order (or a part thereof) from BTD USA and are interested in participating in this effort, please post here. Please include statements of what you would like to see come out of this, and any ideas you might have for how we should proceed. If it seems there is enough interest, I will volunteer myself to collect names and order info (unless someone else volunteers to do it  ). We can then get to drafting a statement of our demands and proceed from there. Any action we take would have to be acceptable to all involved. What say you? Please respond if willing. Jason |
| Sysiphus | 04 Feb 2010 7:02 a.m. PST |
It's the Western Way of War…kill and kill again! |
| Private Matter | 04 Feb 2010 7:03 a.m. PST |
I just posted this information on another Black Tree theard: Here is the mapquest site for the address listed as BTD's USA location: link When doing a reverse address telephone look up on whitepages.com it returns the names of Bill G Robinson [tel: (806) 355-6927] and Dean Edwards [no telephone number listed] I settled my issue a few years ago directly with them at a UK show but it was still a disappointment. I would recommend that you do contact the local authorities in Texas about this for the USA side and for the UK a call to trading standards is well in order. Personally I'd prefer to see them turn things around but at this stage only new management could pull that off. |
| Authorised | 04 Feb 2010 7:09 a.m. PST |
I'd happily take the moulds off their hands. |
| GreatScot72 | 04 Feb 2010 7:12 a.m. PST |
How is this, then. I don't want to lose anyone interested in participating. Please email me at cheshirekat72 AT yahoo DOT com if you wish to be a part. I will start putting together a contact list. Strength in numbers!!! |
aecurtis  | 04 Feb 2010 7:18 a.m. PST |
Don't forget postal inspectors! |
| GreatScot72 | 04 Feb 2010 7:20 a.m. PST |
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| geudens | 04 Feb 2010 7:25 a.m. PST |
Not that it's a great help, but BTD UK is no better: I'm still waiting for backordered items since september… Emails are not answered and if you phone in, you get a machine… Rudi |
| Phil1965 | 04 Feb 2010 7:37 a.m. PST |
If you know who hosts their website it may be worth contacting them with a view to having the BTD site removed for fraudulent practice, if they knowingly allow BTD to continue taking customers money without providing the goods then they may well be liable in addition to BTD. |
| Schogun | 04 Feb 2010 7:39 a.m. PST |
I understand your anger. I have only ordered once from BTD USA and ended up canceling it. Remember two things though -- 1. Just because an item is listed in a catalog doesn't mean it's in stock. This is true of all companies. 2. BTD USA is at the mercy of BTD UK. If BTD USA doesn't have an item you want, they have to wait for UK to ship it…and we all know how responsive BTD UK isn't. If BTD US is charging your credit card for the full amount of your order but only shipping a partial, then you have grounds for faulty business practices. But overall, I think your frustration is better directed at BTD UK. |
| GreatScot72 | 04 Feb 2010 7:45 a.m. PST |
Schogun, I respectfully but completely disagree. The problem may originate with BTD UK, but the US branch is taking funds (they took mine) and refusing to communicate with customers. They are at the very least facilitating the problems at hand. I would be much more forgiving if they would communicate. Since I am in the US, I can have a great deal more impact on BTD USA. |
| nazrat | 04 Feb 2010 8:11 a.m. PST |
Exactly! If they don't have the models then they should NOT be taking people's money until they do. That's tantamount to stealing. |
| krieghund | 04 Feb 2010 8:13 a.m. PST |
Still waiting on half of a £20.00 GBP pound order from November (BTD UK ).
I've had numerous mails ignored and the phone says they are closed for Xmas. When I finally received half of the order, nice mins by the way, they sighted Xmas holidays & sickness for the delay Strangely, the first response I received about my missing order stated a mail order over sight. I really like some of the stuff BTD do and wish they would sort their  ing act out or sell the whole enterprise to some one who knows what they are doing. Sorry about the rant. |
| JRacel | 04 Feb 2010 8:18 a.m. PST |
I don't have any orders with BTD, but the US does have specific laws dealing with Mail order that require the seller to provide the goods within 30 days or notify the purchaser of any delays and get their agreement to wait or cancel the order with a full refund. I have the links on my PC at home, but not here at the office. I am sure one of you with some time could find them, or I will try and remeber to add the links when I eventually escape from here today. Anyone accepting money for product they can not deliver is at fault regardless of who you wish to blaim Schogun. If BTD USA took money and can not provide the goods, the law says they shoudl return the money without the customers having to go to all the trouble everyone here is experiencing. Most of us have been burned by this kind of thing and I for one would like to see such sellers punished. There are far too many great sellers out there that take care of their customers and will notify them of every issue along the way if there are delays and problems. Those are the good guys. BTD USA seems to definately need to be closed down if they can not follow the law by fullfilling orders. Just my 2 cents. Jeff |
| Frank Sollitto | 04 Feb 2010 9:33 a.m. PST |
You may find it very helpful to contact your state Attourney General, the Better Business Bureau in your state, and as has been suggested your local Postmaster, who will direct you to the correct mechanism for complaint. The practices alleged to have been engaged in by BTD may be actionable at local, state, and federal levels. I have found in the past that getting the US Postal Service inspectors involved brings immediate and positive reponse from vedors suffering from any number of varieties of excuse-itis. There are all kinds of consumer protection agencies who will be pleased to help you, although they will all want to see a written complaint filed. If you have one prepared citing dates, and other pertinent information it will expidite their response as well. |
| Lordgoober | 04 Feb 2010 9:35 a.m. PST |
I have an outstanding order for 2 dwarf bolt throwers. Originally it was for a bolt thrower and a flame cannon. John had emailed me saying that the flame cannon was out of stock and I replied to just send me 2 bolt throwers as I had acquired 2 flame cannons from a local indy store auction. The last contact I had from John was on December 18 when he was flabbergasted that I still hadn't received my models. Note that this order was placed back in late august. I just want my miniatures. |
| JRacel | 04 Feb 2010 9:39 a.m. PST |
Here is the link to the Federal Trade Commission Rules. link Hope they help. Jeff |
| GreatScot72 | 04 Feb 2010 9:44 a.m. PST |
Lordgoober, email me at cheshirekat72 AT yahoo DOT com so that I can add you to the list. @ Jeff. Thanks!! By the way, there is an email coming your way. |
| The Outlander | 04 Feb 2010 10:21 a.m. PST |
Say, what about other companies? Is there a 'black list'somewhere so a person does not get stung out of ignorance? |
| Admiral Yi Sun Sin is my Homie | 04 Feb 2010 10:34 a.m. PST |
Fill this in: link They want to see a pattern so anyone with a legitimate complaint with BTD US should fill it out. One person's problem with them doesn't make a pattern, btw. |
| GreatScot72 | 04 Feb 2010 10:43 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the helpful link. "One person's problem with them doesn't make a pattern, btw." The whole reason for this thread. |
| combatpainter | 04 Feb 2010 10:59 a.m. PST |
Scary stuff! I won't be dealing with them anymore. |
| Admiral Yi Sun Sin is my Homie | 04 Feb 2010 11:02 a.m. PST |
The whole reason for this thread Yes I know but on TMP it sometimes helps to repeat the obvious to avoid the obvious extra post repeating the obvious. Best of Luck! |
| GreatScot72 | 04 Feb 2010 11:15 a.m. PST |
It definitely bear repeating. The more people we have on board, the better a chance we can get some resolution. That said, many on other threads have complained about outstanding orders with BTD USA, yet I have had only two email responses. I hope that means some of you are getting your problems resolved. But if you have not had resolution yet, getting involved can only help you! |
| Authorised | 04 Feb 2010 11:28 a.m. PST |
I am in the UK, so my beef is with BTD UK I'm afraid. |
| GreatScot72 | 04 Feb 2010 11:58 a.m. PST |
I wish we could help you from this side of the pond, Authorized. Perhaps you could gather some like-minded disgruntled grognards over there and start a UK chapter of the Jilted-by-BTD association. |
| shelldrake | 04 Feb 2010 12:59 p.m. PST |
Im in Australia and my beef is with BTD UK… I wish there was a band wagon for that one to help us colonials. |
| terry1956 | 04 Feb 2010 1:37 p.m. PST |
Hi, I am also in the UK, sick of being played with by BTD. they have back orders from me from 6 weeks ago.Ring and its the flu, then its the PC down and they will get back, nothing now bar the answer machine.
I have a mate who lives near them and I feel like asking him to kick their asses if they don,t sort it out soon.
michael |
| Ken Portner | 04 Feb 2010 1:48 p.m. PST |
For the number of times the BTD folks are mentioned in posts they should probably have their own board by now.
I supposed I'm one of the lucky ones. A year or two back I was able to get about 100 of their very nice Ancient Germans. Of course, I bought them used from someone else over Btown, not from BTD themselves.
|
 The Nigerian Lead Minister  | 04 Feb 2010 4:20 p.m. PST |
I'll be in. I got hosed 18 months ago. No contact since a phone call promising to fix it, which of course never happened. I wrote it off and decided never to order from them again. |
| CPBelt | 04 Feb 2010 4:22 p.m. PST |
I don't have any orders with BTD, but the US does have specific laws dealing with Mail order that require the seller to provide the goods within 30 days or notify the purchaser of any delays and get their agreement to wait or cancel the order with a full refund. Yep. I used that to cancel a computer from Dell last month! After three delays, I told them to stuff it. Of course, they told me I couldn't cancel the order. Then I quoted them FTC law. Not sure if the several people in India I talked to even knew what the FTC was! I say stuff it to BTD! |
| idontbelieveit | 04 Feb 2010 4:33 p.m. PST |
Did you use a credit card for this? I've yet to meet a vendor who doesn't wake up when a credit card company calls them with a complaint from a customer. That seems kind of obvious though so if it seems so, forgive me for asking. |
| GreatScot72 | 04 Feb 2010 5:19 p.m. PST |
We are up to five. Given the heavy activity on the other BTD threads, there must be more out there willing to throw in their lot with us. It's not too late! |
| Hitman | 04 Feb 2010 8:09 p.m. PST |
Saxon Dog;
I live in Canada and have sent you an e-mail as per one of your earlier responses. Make it 6!!
Thanks,
Hitman |
| Mikasa | 05 Feb 2010 1:45 a.m. PST |
I'm in the UK, but will happily support you, let me know if I can be of help |
| Gwartizan | 05 Feb 2010 3:27 a.m. PST |
Say, what about other companies? Is there a 'black list'somewhere so a person does not get stung out of ignorance? Unfortunately there isn't an obvious black list anywhere. TMP does tend to list if a company is no longer trading or has a problem with their website, but there is no record of sales practices. BTD issues crop up time and again here, but unless someone reads the Consumer Affairs board they will be unaware of the problems. People don't tend to come here unless they already have problems so it's a bit of a catch 22. A list of problem traders would be useful, but it would need to be placed somewhere obvious. |
| Authorised | 05 Feb 2010 5:31 a.m. PST |
I ordered a TON of things from BTD many many years ago when they were based in nottingham, and got them within a week. I believe some change of management has happened in the last 10 years or so on the quiet which has led to this mess. As previously stated, delays to me are fine, lack of communication is completely unacceptable. Maybe we should hire a PI to track their movements :) what REALLY annoys me is that BTD's range is so vast, so varied, and so good that I'd hate to see it go south. heh, maybe we should all club together to buy the moulds off them and set up the TMP-forum miniatures company :) |
| GreatScot72 | 05 Feb 2010 6:01 a.m. PST |
Too true! The quality and range of their miniatures is outstanding. That, combined with those blasted 50% off sales, was too much for me to bear. Silly, silly me. I would love to see the BTD range in the hands of a more capable business team a again. As matters stand now, it is just a sad waste. Update: I have contacted administrators at Bartertown and Lead Adventure Forum to ask their permission to post on their sites about this issue. I am hoping we can find more victimized individuals willing to join our little coilition. Are there any other sites we should hit? Thanks. |
| Authorised | 05 Feb 2010 6:32 a.m. PST |
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| ariarnia | 05 Feb 2010 8:43 a.m. PST |
As someone who only bought minis as a gift for my OH, I might suggest forums other than just explicitly game forums. If you google "consumer rights forum" you get link and link both very big and both places that people who aren't part of 'the community' but might want to buy figures/might have bought figures would look (I got dr who figures for my OH who doesn't game but does like collecting dr who stuff) Just a suggestion. I'm UK btw if anyone in the uk want's to do anything about this. |
| GreatScot72 | 05 Feb 2010 9:01 a.m. PST |
A great idea, ariarnia. Thanks! There are so many of you UK folks with the same BTD problems, I really hope you can get together and take some action!! |
| BugStomper | 05 Feb 2010 9:25 a.m. PST |
If you're in the UK contact Consumer Direct ( consumerdirect.gov.uk ) or via telephone on 08454 040506 It'll take around 5 minutes of your time. |
| ariarnia | 06 Feb 2010 7:09 a.m. PST |
consumer direct can't do anything as they're listed as dissolved on company house and therefore are assumed to be out of business. I've asked trading standards to have another look as they're evidently still trading, but I've not heard back from them yet. and it didn't take 5 mins, it took 3 months to get a response that "they seem to have gone out of business" for me to point out that they're still trading. |
| Rogzombie | 06 Feb 2010 11:16 a.m. PST |
Contacting thewir credit card companies and webmasters could have devastating results to them. VISA and mastercard do not want to be associated with bad companies and webmasters are even more jittery about bad publicity. I having been watching this drama for ten years. They ahve always been at fault for this and every so often a flame war erupts on here over them. Just some news for newer tmp members, this sort of practice is nothing new although it seems worse. All of the ideas on here seem great, I would suggest hammering them with all of the ideas! |
| French Wargame Holidays | 07 Feb 2010 2:09 p.m. PST |
a sad state of affairsas i like there miniatures, I would buy the moulds if I knew they were for sale. |
| Jemima Fawr | 09 Feb 2010 3:56 a.m. PST |
In the UK, just sue the credit card company in the Small Claims Court. Thanks to the Consumer Credit Act, it's a relatively simple process. Then the credit card company have all the fun of pursuing BTD. |
| Gwartizan | 09 Feb 2010 4:09 a.m. PST |
One day the BBC will catch up with them over the DrWho range.
The licence ran out years ago and no company carries that much "old stock" There won't be much money left to pay off the creditors if that happens! |
| Stuart at Great Escape Games | 09 Feb 2010 3:40 p.m. PST |
I wouldn't mess around. If you are in the UK and have experienced an unacceptable level of service, take legal action. Warn them they have 7 days to refund your money. If they fail, file a claim at moneyclaim.gov.uk . The threat of this made one company pay up late last year. On three other occassions I have had to follow through with the legal action and won. It is very quick and easy to use and you can even claim back the £25.00 GBP it costs to raise the action. |
| Jemima Fawr | 10 Feb 2010 4:23 a.m. PST |
Or as I said, sue the credit card company, if you used a credit card. It's even easier and they do cough up immediately. |
| Lordgoober | 11 Feb 2010 1:04 p.m. PST |
Well, this threat of legal action has seemed to work. I received my order in the mail today, of course there was a mispackage so I've sent John an email trying to get THAT fixed and apparently there's another part of the order that will be coming in later. I guess that's an apology portion. |
