"Minden figures-compatibility?" Topic

Glad to see Matt's line is progressing.

My Minden French arrived today and they are gorgeous figures in person. I dont know if my heavy hand can do them justice….I am in a real quandary…Front Rank suit my lack of painting talent but the Minden are so nice…..I might paint one of them up and see how it goes. The mounted colonel is exceptional!

cheers

FM

These are much better than Minden

link

Not so skinny and more like true 28mm
Also properly researched by experts in their field

Looks like minden has some competition …

Both very nice and I hope both do very well. Can never have enough SYW stuff in my opinion!

What experts? Both are nice and I dont think Minden will mind one bit.

"Not so skinny and more like true 28mm"

Ok, so I guess you think Steve Hezzlewood's RSM's (former Pax Brittanica), Charles Stadden's classic 30mm range and Edward Suren's "Willie" range are malnourished as well?

And as to "true 28mm", pardon me while I decide whether to laugh or cry. Having collected, created diorama's for other collector's, and gamed since the 60's; I've seen "true 15mm", "heroic 15mm", 18mm, now "heroic 18mm", "true 20mm" "1/72nd scale" (both sole to eye and sole to top of head), "true 25mm" (again, both sole to eye and sole to top of head), "heroic 25mm", 28mm, "heroic 28mm", 30mm (again both sole to eye and sole to top of head), and 32mm.

I do not own any Minden's, they aren't my scale of choice, but give Frank and his sculptor credit for one thing if nothing else – the figures are sculpted in exact 1/56th scale, sole to eye. This is the classic formula that is used for 1/32nd and 54mm collector's figures. And they are anatomically correct to scale.

As to the relative quality, build or scale of any given range, that will always be subjective in the individual gamer's (or collector's) eye. Unfortunately, unlike manufacturer's of bolts and nuts, there is no SAE or similar body to standardize scales for figure sculptor's or gamer's.

"Also properly researched by experts in their field"

As to historical accuracy, follower's of Frank's blog will know that he stated at the very beginning that certain compromises would be made as to equipment carried to suit his tastes. He paid for the masters, so why not? Regular readers will also be aware that, more than once, Frank has pulled a green and sent it back for re-sculpting after receiving input from Gentlemen such as Der Alte Fritz, Ionnis and the folks behind "The Kronoskaff Project", as well as others who could provide solid, documented references for their suggestions. Since you don't mention who your "experts" are and Frank frequently not only cites his, but credits them publicly as well for their contributions, we'll leave it to the readers and buyers to make their own determinations here.

As to his "marketing" of the figures, well, again, he paid for the range himself and initially only for his own use. He only agreed to sell some of the product to fund expansion costs, and then had to be talked into expanding his sales beyond his initial offering so that people could complete entire armies. Regardless, as with all individuals, businesses or artizans, Frank has the right to sell however many he wishes, in the poses and nationalities that he wishes, and to whom he wishes. If that's not your cup of tea, buy elsewhere, Frank probably won't mind.

Even though I don't happen to be a customer (by my choice), I find the incessant "Minden Bashing" to be quite humorous, if a bit tiresome. Obviously, few people have taken notice of the fact that Der Alte Fritz long ago commissioned a "private range" of "Potsdam Miniatures" to represent the 3-deep firing lines he prefers. Or that Phil Olley has filled-out large parts of his personal collection with privately-sculpted 18th century figures from John Ray and TYW figures all individually-converted and animated by Brian Rigelsford. If either DAF or Phil ever decided to sell any of these figures, they could (by right) choose to sell to one individual, a 100, or any number they chose to.

OK, off of soapbox now, but still chuckling somewhat and shaking my head at the "true 28mm" comment.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Well said Burlesonbill, well said.

When I had my own figures commissioned, I thought that one day I might want to sell castings to recoup some of my sculpting and mold making expenses. But I haven't done so, largely because I really don't want to be in the miniatures business. I don't want to spend hours of my free time packing orders and taking them to the post office or UPS store. I would also feel a responsibility to get orders shipped out as soon as possible, and quite frankly, my caster has a laissez faire attitude about sending me my castings, so I would imagine that backorders would pile up and people would be upset with me (and rightly so).

So the easiest thing for me to do is not sell my castings to the public. I imagine that Frank has gone through the same thought process as he used to actually be in the figure business and chose to sell his range of Mongrel Miniatures to another company. I completely understand his thinking on this.

I am grateful that he has decided to sell some of his figures to other wargamers and collectors because I think that they are some of the best figures ever sculpted. In fact I like them much better than my own figures or my beloved Stadden and RSM figures. It is largely due to the existance of the Minden range that I have not added any new figures to my own range (although I should note that my figures are 30mm and his are 1/56 scale, so there is a considerable size differential), but rather, have decided to rebuild my armies with Mindens.

I think that we live in a Golden Age of the Hobby wherein we can get almost any figure, in any size, and in a variety of sculpting styles. It's not a competition between figure ranges. I am happy that we have so much selection today and if other companies enter the realm of SYW figures, I would probably take a good look at their offerings and add a battalion or two to my own collection as long as they are relatively compatible. These are good times for wargamers. Let's enjoy them.

Well said Bill. I think some of the anti-Minden comments are fuelled by the whole "Frank gets to choose who he sells to" thing. Myself I like both the Minden and the new ones from Wartime Minis and will be collecting both.
Some time down the track i am thinking about commisioning some Jacobite rebellion in the same style……

I agree with Der Alte Fritz and FM. There seems to be some sort of history to this Hawkswood vs Minden thing. But it appears to me both have commissioned very fine figures, and set new standards for the period.

I am curious about rhis 1/56 thing. I thought most SYW troops were quite short. The Saxons were the tallest by about 5" as they had different recruiting regulations.
The average 5'2" Prussian soldier at 28mm is almost 1/56.
Mindens are 31mm according to the blog, and I presume the extra 3mm is the tricorn.
Is this what is actually being modelled when they say Mindens are 1/56. Or are they a modern 5'9" average person scaled down?
The taller Prussians (the 5'6" giants!!) were assigned to cavalry units if I remember Nosworthy correctly.

If you can afford to not get into the business end of this hobby, then I highly reccomend that you not, just play around with it! I will not go into details, but it was the most frustrating and unprofitable thing I have ever done! Part (a lot) was my fault, ignorance and ego, the other part was the ridiculous whims and demands of some customers that made a cherished hobby a numbing chore in the end! I hope Minden flourishes as is and the owner continues to run it however he wants so it remains a project he wants to stay involved with!

@thehawk

The Minden figures are 30mm tall. That works out a scale height of 5"6'.
According to this paper on the subject:-
PDF link
The English and Irish averaged between 5'5" and 5"6" (scale height 29.4mm and 30mm)
The French and the Bohemians were on average about the same as the English (29.4mm)
The Hungarians averaged the same as the Irish (30mm)
The Saxons, Germans and Scottish averaged 5"4 1/2" (29.2mm)

I am afraid you are indeed correct:-
The Minden Prussians are .8mm too big.
The English and French are .6mm too big
I'm not sure about the Hanoverians and the "German" Austrians, but I'm pleased to say the Hungarians are correct.
(The figures are all built off the same dollies to keep the cost down for Frank so different heights for each Nationality aren't really as practical as they would be for most miniatures companies with more money behind them)
If and when I make an Irish regiment, I'll be laughing though ;-)

I'd like to think the muskets are the right length however which was one of the main reasons of stating some kind of scale and hopefully enabling some kind of standardisation between ranges in future.
Hopefully anyone wanting to start a range to match these can pull out a calculator and be halfway there without needing to buy samples (I've spent years trying to work out what scale weapons are supposed to be when trying to match other ranges for clients and it's impossible, I also consider weapon sizes to be a bigger problem when mixing figures than figure height)

Richard

An interesting document. I think these must be the heights of everage civilians and not applicable to infantry. In his recent book on the 18th C Saxon Army, Kroll states that the average Saxon soldier was ten centimeters or around four inches taller than his British counterpart.

thehawk

Does this mean the average British infantryman was 5'0" or shorter?

At 5ft 9", I guess that I would have been a grenadier then.

I am not one of Wartimes Miniatures experts..I did "think up" the range but my involement is limited to observing these days..
at 5' 101/2" I would be a grenadier as well ..I am not good with horses so a grenadier is fine..a short life and not too merry in Frederick's Army..roll on Torgau

Dont get me wrong I think its a great range and I will be thinking about getting some to go with my Minden. Even though it wasnt his intention o think Slivk Dickens has pointed out a range that will be very compatibke with Minden!

Whilst they say every cloud has a silver lining usually it's just rain.
In this instance it would seem something positive really has come out of something very negative.

Gentlemen, just remember Frederick's injunction to his grenadiers not to "smile easily or make out friendly" – and keep your moustaches well waxed!

As for Wartime Miniatures, I believe Mathew and Frank have been in contact and remain on cordial terms – so let's return to proper games instead of trying to play one against the other!

- There, pushed this thread up to 70…

I agree with the references to compatibility in general, with RSM and Suren being the most obvious. However, I think Perry Bros are on the slender side and would definitely mix on the table, altho the style difference may not make them perfect in the same regiment.

My sash and saber are compatible at 3', but not at 3". Their sculpting style is totally different. They've oversized heads and legs and certain equipment, too. They are also bulkier than real people were then. I do like them and Old Glory figures, but the style is very different. They also have the "6 subtle variations of marching" philosophy, which makes a regiment of them look very different (more 'realistic') than a Minden regiment. What do you prefer? Up to you. I do have a lot of sympathy with the "pure Minden" idea, altho my wife would probably say it was crazy. Then again, she may say that about paiting toy soldiers in general!

Sorry to comment on the actual topic of the thread and not all the hijacking comments. :)

But I will say that I agree completely with Burleson Bill. Also, that while average heights are well and good, I don't trust modern statistics much less 18th century ones. Since we have the rifles and other gear, that's probably the most accurate "sizing" issue.

Finally, "true 28mm" or indeed any "mm" measurement is purely opinion. 1/56 is a scale, and therefore scientific. 28mm is an artistic standard completely open to interpretation (28mm bottom of stand to top of hat?? 28mm foot to eye? foot to top of head? what???)

I have two Minden Austrian battalions I'm dying to paint. On the other hand, they also scare me. Since it's "very important" that I paint 15mm WWII just now, I've delayed my Minden experiment, but am happy with the option to buy more.

I have just undercoated my first Minden and will slap some paint on it this weekend……

young man, we slap silly people, but we do not "slap" paint.
…especially on a high-quality detailed miniature figurine!
:)
show us what you got and start it as a painting thread, I'm always interested in learning new techniques and new stlyes as demanded by different figures.

I once made the mistake of asking for one of each (to get a feel for them before splashing out) and Frank very kindly explained to me that I had not read his blog (true) and why he would not sell on that basis (piracy). So that was easily sorted when I bought a couple of units, which my bro then doubled. No problems.

In all my dealings with Frank I have found him to be open, fair and prompt (and so a pleasure to deal with), so I have no complaints, and hope that those who want to buy but have had emails go astray get there in the end, as they are nice figures.