"Pennants on Russian Hussars lances" Topic

Any help appreciated. I'm aiming to have every Russian Hussar regt painted but I'm confused by the pennants on the lances some hussars carried. I thought they were all red / white then bought a box of 20mm Zvezda Russian hussars and noted they depict the pennants as red / blue on the cover of the box. Any replies most appreciated.

From
Валькович Александр Михайлович
"Армейские гусары 1812-1816" (Цейхгауз № 1)

Белорусский гусарский полк – no pennant
Елисаветградский гусарский полк – no pennant
Изюмский гусарский полк – red over blue
Павлоградский гусарский полк – turquiose over white
Ахтырский гусарский полк – used Polish pennants for deception (Polish raspberry/crimson over white was the most common pennant used by Polish ulans, but there were other combinations)

Typical gusar lance was 285cm. long, the steel tip was 12cm, and the wood part painted red, and without pennant by regulation.
picture

Chuvak

Chuvak, I am most grateful. If I could read Russian I would be ecstatic! Could you possibly translate the regiments into english? My profuse apologies for my lack of russian! Your help is invaluable.

Transliterations :
Belorusskiy – named for White Russia – modern Belarus
Yelisavetgradskiy – named for a city in central Ukraine – modern Kirovohrad
Izyumskiy – named for a city in eastern Ukraine – same name today (sometimes transliterated from Ukrainian as "Izum")
Pavlogradskiy – named for a city in eastern Ukraine – same name today (sometimes transliterated from Ukrainian as "Pavlohrad")
Akhtyrskiy – named for a city in northern Ukraine – modern Охтирка (tranliteration is usually "Okhtyrka") in Ukrainian

The differences in transliterations arise from trying to get the sound of the names as spoken by Ukrainians.

Translation:
гусарский полк = hussar regiment

Russian is not so hard to learn. Try it --- many, many great sources (not to mention literature, movies, talking to Russian people, etc.)

Here, one little poem – it is worth it to learn Russian just for this:
simonov.co.uk/zhdimenya.htm
:-)

Chuvak

You're a star. I am staring at my mid 50s and find remembering where I live a chore! So taking on another language is more than I can contemplate. I do possess some Russian books however, but these are profusely illustrated! My thanks for your help.

I am about the same age – and have driven by my own house several times.

Still, it is a nice language in many ways.

As the French say, "bien amicalement",
Chuvak

@Chuvak

Great information, may I ask about your source?

@Ruffin

Check also out Mark Conrad's home page, he was an excellent translated article about Russian Hussars.

v. Winterfeldt,

I did give the source :
From
Валькович Александр Михайлович
"Армейские гусары 1812-1816" (Цейхгауз № 1)

Aleksandr Mikhailovich Valkovich
"Army Hussars 1812-1816" (Tseikhgauz, also given as "Zeughaus", it means "Arsenal" – issue No. 1)

It is a nice magazine for Russian military history.

Here is Mr. Conra's translation of the same aricle from Tseikhgauz
link

Here is his translation of the notes for the Parkhaev card that shows lances:
link

"* LANCES — PIKI
Lances, used in 1812-1814 by Russian light mounted troops, were distinguished by their great variety. This was especially so for cossack lances which did not have regulation patterns. For cossack lances, the size of the steel points, their length, and the diameter of the shafts were according to whim; they had only one characteristic feature – there was no butt-piece nor any tangs below the blade (2-4). [Sic, the illustration which shows tangs is in error. This part of the postcard's text is copied almost word for word from A. N. Kulinskii's Kholodnoe oruzhie russkoi armii i flota, although the postcard mispells pozhilina (tang) as prozhilina. – M.C.] In 1812 mounted regiments of the provincial levies were also armed with similar weapons (1), and in other instances they received pikes left from the 1807 militia (7).

From 1806 lancers were armed with a cavalry lance (5 and 6) which was distinguished from those for cossacks by its longer blade (12.2 cm) with a tubular base and long cut-out tangs. They also had a blunt butt-piece. Its shaft was thinner than for cossack lances and was painted black. The lancer's weapon had a total length that averaged 2.8 to 2.85 meters. On the lance there was fastened a cloth flag – the flyuger – by whose color it was possible to distinguish one regiment from another, and within a regiment – one battalion from another. During an attack in mounted formation the pennons on the lances lowered to the "charge" ["k boyu"] position produced a piercing whistle and droned as they moved through the air, affecting enemy morale.
By the summer of 1812 lancer-pattern lances, but without pennons, were used to arm front-rank men in eight army hussar regiments. Thus, almost all the Russian light cavalry during the Patriotic War came to be carrying lances, surpassing Napoleon's cavalry in this kind of weapon. "

I have in some notes referencing Parkhaev that the 8 regiments offically issued lances were :
Alexandria, Akhtyrka, Grodno, Elizavetgrad, Izyum, Mariupol, Pavlograd and Sumy
(but, I am not sure not where this was noted – maybe on one of the hussar cards).

After looking at the the actual magazine, instead of a scan on my computer, I would say that Valkovich is also mostly showing a black painted lance, but without tangs. However, the one for the Belorusskiy regiment may be dark red. It is hard to say from the image. But it is not impossible that the three later equipped regiments – Belorusskiy, Oviopol and Lubny – may have been equipped with the more common cossack type, and painted red.

Chuvak

Thank you – again interesting information
The links are not working.
Is Mark Conrads Home Page down?

Chuvak- many thanks. I've seen the English translation of the Hussars 1812-16 article, but you have added very interesting further commentary.

The "new" Mark Conrad home page appears to be working for me :
link
However, the site does NOT show up in google search results at this time. Quite strange.

Also, here is the Parkhaev card with the lances:
picture

Overall, I wish I had more contemporary sources on this topic. I wonder if our "Big Al" or "nvrsaynvr" can help.

Chuvak

Strange I cannot get it.

as for contemporary sources check out the

Elberfeld Manuscript and Klein.

v. Winterfeldt,

I may not be really seeing it, but instead a cached version on some server(s) in the USA. Google search results don't cache, and here it does not show up.

The Elberfeld I know.
Do you know of any published images of Russian hussars from Klein? There are good holdings of him in the Historisches Museum der Stadt Nόrnberg and at the Hamburger Kunsthalle, but I have only seen a few published – and no hussars.
[We are referring to the noted Nόrnbergische artist Johann Adam Klein (1792-1875) and the series of aquarelles he did from life late in the era.]

Chuvak

@Chuvak

Yes about Johann Adam Klein, the prints he did about the Russian Army of about 1815 were re – printed by

Ulf Friese & Lacina Editionen

I don't have this particular work in my collection but I believe that some of them can be found in the ASK Brown collection or copies of the originals.

I still cannot get a connection to the link you provided.

Suhr – Husar des Regiments Isum:

picture

I have the Klein Russian Army set, as well as the other published sets.

There are two (2) Russian hussar plates in the Brown collection from:

"A collection of 72 ink and pencil drawings, partially hand colored, of uniform figures by Georg Schδfer after Johann Adam Klein".

These are slightly larger than the originals.

Oh, thank you !

I had not seen this one!
Akhtyrskiy g.p. likely in May 1815 – black lance with pennant yellow over dark blue, with a countercharged narrow stripe between the two :
link

Here is another, not completely colored in.
Aleksandriyskiy g.p. in May 1815 – pennant with two colors (sadly not colored in) :
link

Thank you again, dear colleagues!
Chuvak

Actually also the Landecker Bilderhandschrift shows some Russian hussars, however only on foot and without lances.

EXCELLENT sources Chuvak!!