"A couple of DH and RoE basic questions" Topic

Our gaming group is planning to dive into a quick and dirty WW II scirmisher game, and we'll probably use either Disposable Heroes or Rules of Engagement. We haven't decided on scale yet though (15mm or 28mm, with 15mm being a lot easier on the wallet and less time consuming to paint figures and build terrain). So here are my questions that should help decide between scales:

1) I assume both DH and RoE can be played in both 15mm and 28mm (and 20mm for that matter), right?

2) What is the basing for DH and RoE? Would both be fine with pennies for 15mm and 25mm-washers for 28mm?

3) Is it o.k. to play DH and/or RoE on squad level (around 10 to 20 figures per side) or do you need considerably more figures? If yes what would you consider basic / a reasonable number to start with?

4) How many buildings do you need and how "gamemable" to do they have to be? I'd figure that unless you play city fights two or three buildings should be enough, while fully gameable, multi-story buildings could pose a problem in 15mm.

Thanks a lot for your help!

For RoE:

1: yes, just convert the ranges.

2: single figures per base, although some people are basing crewed weapons and the crew on one base. I am not doing this for crews simply so they can be removed as casualties

3: RoE is primarily designed for platoon level, but I am tinkering with playing the rules for the Vietnam war using small teams, so it should work.

4: as little or as many as you like. How 'gamable' they are is up to you – place figures in, on top or on a map representing the inside of a building.

I'm pretty much with Shelldrake.

Both systems seem to cause pretty steady casualties, especially without the wise use of cover. So, 10 figs may make for a fast game.

I use 25mm bases for my 28mm figs.

FYI, I read somewhere that Iron Ivan (Disposable Heroes) is working on a man to man set of rules. That may be an even better fit for you guys. No word on release date, though.

With DH, for the best short game, you should go less than at least two squads about 20 figures, a support of some kind and maybe a vehicle or tank on each side. Also, definitely plan to have plenty of cover in your game. I never go less than a platoon and a tank aside for about a 2-3 hour game. Establish clear cut objectives for each side.

Both systems are comparable for all your criteria.

I do not advise adjusting the ranges for 15mm, IMO RoE in particular has a better look and 'feel' when using 15mm figs.

DH generates silly casualties even with a lot of terrain. A game with two infantry units of 10 figs on each side will be over in a matter of minutes. DH rules call for players to alternate moving units (I move a single unit, then you move a single unit).

RoE affords an environment that allows you to do quite a bit more maneuvering during the course of your battle plus your units will generally last quite a bit longer -- which is not to say you won't take casualties. If you have played Squad Leader, you will be right at home in RoE – takes about 10 minutes to teach the game to a Squad Leader player. While RoE is similar to Squad Leader in many respects -- Combat resolution is quite different and the morale system is rather elegant.

You will find it desirable to use quite a few 10 sided dice to play DH.

RoE requires uses similar numbers of six sided dice.

mjc

I agree with the above posters.

For buildings if your groups sets up guidelines on building uses ahead of time it shouldn't be an issue.

I wouldn't play either game with less than a 3-4 elements (squads, command squads, support sections). A good starting point would be two squads, a command squad and a MMG.

I have played both DH and ROE, and would suggest trying out both rules. They each play a little differently. With each game you will want to go bigger once you play the game. I have ran a full company with attachments attacking 2 platoons. This size game takes 3-4 hours once a group knows the rules.

Chris

Just one more thing.

I use 5/8" washers for my 15mm Infantry. A bit smaller than pennies I do believe. They have the advantage of being attracted to magnets. This may be an issue if you want to attach your figs to bases for other games.

mjc

Thanks a lot for the comments so far. We'll probably try both systems if basing is not an issue. To give you a better idea of what we have in mind for starters:

28 mm:
Germans – Warlord/BAM starter set for RoE (looks like platoon command + 2 squads with 2 LMGs) + HMG (or PAK40?)

Americans – Warlord/BAM screaming eagles box (platton command + 1 squad + mortar + bazooka team)

2 or 3 "gameable" buildings/ruins in addition to "generic" terrain (i.e. woods, hills, hedges etc.)

That's 60 GBP + P&P + terrain. Not sure if that's enough to start with though.

15mm is much easier – a platoon blister for each side and maybe a pair of guns or a vehicle. Terrain would be existing FOW terrain at the local store. 20 to 40 GBP total.

I must admit that I usually prefer 28mm, but 15mm has the destinct advantage of being "cheaper" and quicker to paint.

Nick, basing is no issue in RoE. We base most figures singly, with 'teams' based all on one base. Your initial packs (it is an HMG) will be fine but you're bound to bulk them up once you get the hang of things.

Warboss Nick: To answer your questions…

1. Yes, DH works just as easily for 15mm as 28mm. I do single based 15s, but basing them on stands works as well, you will just need a way to keep track of individual casualties in the units (casualty caps, small dice, etc.). We keep the ranges the same for both, no need to change anything (though you could also switch to cm or halve the ranges).

2. I use washers slightly smaller than pennies, but really anything will work.

3. You can play a squad or two and platoon command just fine. Please ignore Quidveritas's comments on this, as his experience with the system is limited and his understanding of the how the system plays was even proven to be incorrect. He feels the need to bash the system for going on two years now because of a personal spat with me about his outright belligerence about his dislike of the rules and our suggestions to help him on our Yahoo group. For some reason it has become a personal crusade and he posts the same comments on most threads that mention the rules. He also seems to really dislike fans of the system.

If played correctly, DH has no higher or lower casualties than most other systems.

DH is designed to be played with a squad to a company. The focus is a platoon per side and support and this will give you the standard size and length game, but you certainly can play the system smaller and bigger.

I would consider it best to start with a command element, 2 squads, and perhaps a support weapon or vehicle. That will give you a nice size game to learn the system.

4. A few buildings will do just fine. We use around 2 or 3 for most games and have done whole Stalingrad and Pavlov's house games with the table covered in them as well. The buildings do not need to be detailed on the inside. They can be, and will play fine, but it is not necessary to have detailed interiors. In fact, we often use buildings in our 15mm games without lift off roofs, but just place the minis around the outside to indicate they are in that building.

I will give a few notes on terrain in DH.

You do not need to cram the board full of terrain to play. What you do want to do is apply the rules for linear obstacles and for incidental and light cover to even areas of terrain that are often considered open in most games. For example, if you are firing across a large open tall grass field, you would use the rules for linear obstacles to reduce the accuracy for shooting at targets across that field, plus count the cover the unit you are firing at is in. Linear obstacles are also things like walls, clutter, tall grass, bushes, etc. and these might not block LOS, but break up visibility and targeting.

We also suggest using rules for dips and folds in the ground: count certain areas as a shallow depression where units can take cover at the edges and gain a cover benefit while units further within that depression can even be considered out of LOS.

Taken together, we feel this gives a more realistic battlefield sense of cover than most tabletops can replicate with limited scenery. Real battlefields contain much more stuff than is possible to put on our flat tables, so it makes sense to apply some abstract distinctions to cover in the game.

This gives you lots of variety of cover without having to feel the need to completely cover the table in model scenery. Even "open" fields can be considered light cover because of the fact that real fields can conceal or make sighting real troops difficult where an open field on a flat model tabletop might just look like a golf course.

Hope that helps.

Keith

Forgot to add: I have been converting many of my own armies over to 15mm, and I must say, between the cheaper cost, the ease and speed of painting and the look of using the same size table as I would in 28mm with 15mm models and scenery…I think the table looks great and has a pretty neat sense of ground scale in 15mm. A 4x6 foot table with 28s is really zoomed in while the same size table with 15s gives lots of room to spread out.

I still play 28mm games, but usually try to play on 2 4x6 foot tables next to each other to allow for more room.

I think that 20mm might be even cheaper than 15mm scale with plastic soldiers and pre-painted tanks cheaper than unpainted 15mm or 28mm. Still, 28mm looks beautiful on the table, also Iron Ivan Keithyou are a heretic against the one true scale (28mm of course)!
Personally, I've played DH in 20mm and 28mm and used the same range measurements and movements. I agree with Iron Ivan Keith, I think the current measurements would work fine in 15mm scale too. I must say I've been playing DH for a number of years now and like the rules very well. The causality rates seem fine and in line with other systems and the historical reports of the battles we use as source material for our games.

The best thing would be to play both systems and see what you and your friends like better. I prefer DH, others like another type of game. Do try DH though, see what you think.

If price is a consideration, DH is also cheaper to start out with.

Overall, the cost is comparable, though.

While I unfortunately don't have any rules yet and I have to go with my limited historical knowledge, the German starter pack confuses me (the paras are a straight forward half-platoon as far as I can see). Using them as Grenadiers:

2 command packs of 4 – I thought they only consisted of 3, and it would mean I've got a platoon AND company HQ?

pack of 4 squad leaders
pack of 2 LMG teams of 2
4 packs of 4 = 16 rifle men
so that's two quads of 9 with LMG which leaves me with 2 extra squad leaders and 4 spare rifle men, right?

it depends on which time within WW2 you are wanting to play.

You can download some army lists from the RoE website: link

and a rule tutorial to see what the game is like: link

Sorry, 1944 (Normandy). We might also play Italy and Holland later, but for now it's Normandy.

Nick, the RoE rulebook contains all the lists you need for Normandy 1944.

Germans: Grenadiers, Panzergrenadiers, Fallschirmjager, Waffen SS, Volksgrenadiers (ok, they're a little after Normandy).
British/Canadian: British Infantry, Commandos, Paras, Cdn Infantry.
US: Infantry, Armored Infantry, Airborne, Rangers
French: Maquis.

Boy, the costs for the rulebooks are killing you! DH plus the supplements for US and German troops cost more than either of my two starter forces. RoE is a bit easier on the pocket in that regard, but since some of the others have tested DH at a convention we'll start with that. I guess RoE will have to wait till I order the next batch of figures (i.e. either when the two starter forces are painted or have prooved to be insufficient, which might be a particular problem with the US airborne).

Unfortunately two or three weeks till I get the rulebooks (that's what you get for ordering locally), but the first miniatures should arive soon enough (ordered directly from Warlord Games). I added an Artizan command blister for good measure so I can better compare Artizan and BAM.

You've all been very helpfull and I'm still interested in any advice or pointers you might have to add, in particular for two easy starter forces (Grenadiers and US paras, 1944, Normandy).

Cheers,

Nick

Nick: sorry to hear about the price. I hope once they arrive you will find that they have everything you will ever need to game those forces from the beginning of the war until the end and all of the vehicles, artillery, and special weapons as well (plus a few planes). Perhaps the player who ends up using one of the forces can split the cost. They are cover to cover with lists and vehicles (no pics-though they are pretty, the books are designed to be stripped to pure gaming info).

I would suggest for an easy to put together force:

Grenadier platoon command:

Commander with an MP-40
Sgt. with an MP-40
Two riflemen (or a radioman) optional

2 squads of:

1 Sgt. with MP-40
1 LMG gunner
1 Gunner assistant
6 rifles

1 HMG

1 Panzershreck team

US Airborne platoon command:

Commander with Thompson
Sgt. with rifle or Thompson
2 Riflemen optional

2 US Airborne squads:

1 Sgt. with rifle, Carbine, or Thompson
1 .30 cal gunner
1 Gunner assistant
9 riflemen or carbines (mix)

60mm Mortar team

Bazooka team

This would be a fairly small force you could put together from your starter boxes (I think this would work).

If you have extra rifles or an LMG team, throw it in the platoon command.

I would also suggest using one of the full platoons above and half of the other force for your first game and play the larger force as the attacker to get the hang of the mechanics.

Also, if you get the chance, join our Yahoo group as this is the best place to have questions answered. I and the other two authors of our books are always on and almost always answer questions the same day they are answered.

link

Hope that helps,

Keith

Sorry if I came of harsh, Keith. I'm sure the rulebook and supplements are well worth their price (the allusion to Linus in Ocean's 12 was obviously not apparent, was it). I just didn't expect I'd need three books and that they'd cost me as much as a starter force. Then again they are well in line with other rule books, so really nothing to worry about.

I should be able to field the German force and half of the paras with my order (i.e. the para list with a single squad). That would make the US airborne defenders – an interesting set up.

I'll wait till I get my orders to compare BAM with Artizan till I order a second squad for the paras. Further additions will come natural I guess. I've got lot's of ideas already, like a StuG or two LeFH (also making for a nice objective) which in turn dictate updates for the paras. For now I'll have to wait till the orders arrive…

Nick: Not a problem at all. I didn't take it that way. Cost is always a consideration in the hobby and I wanted to make sure you get your money's worth.

It was a decision we made when we first released our rules…how to provide all of the info we wanted to give gamers to make true to historical forces, plus each vehicle is unique and based on real historical data…which amounts to a lot of info for one rule book. It ended up that we couldn't put everything for every army in a single rulebook and keep the size and price reasonable. The compromise was that the main rules have "short" lists and a few vehicles and AT guns for each of the major combatants for late war (US, German, Brits, Soviets).

Just the nature of writing rules that you have to make decisions like that! haha.

Anyway…

Hope you enjoy! I am sure that regardless of what you system(s) you end up playing, you will see your 28mm collection grow. It's a fun scale to model and game in. Except now I am also expanding into 15mm myself…so more minis, terrain etc.

:)

Got the DH rulebooks yesterday and stayed up late flipping through them. They are really packed to the limit! I take a closer look and read them in the upcoming days, but I have a couple of questions already:

1. As far as I can see points are given for full squads / sections. How do you deal with understrength units (after all paras and grenadiers rarely if ever fought in full "official" strength)?

2. How do you distinguish between LMGs and HMGs? For Germans they are both MG 42s for Germans. BAM, Artizan and Crusader seem to have different MGs for squads (LMGs) and HMGs as support, so I should be fine there. But for US paras BAM, Artizan and Crusader don't seem to have different models for the M1919A4 and M1919A6. I'd rather not to restrict the prone models for HMGs. Any tips?

3. I had the impression that DH is als playable at company-level, but couldn't find anything on that. Are there (or will there be) rules and/or lists for company-level games (asked the man who's starting out with the absolut minimum of figures)?

Thanks again for your help!