"Newcastle's Whitecoats Last Stand" Topic

I've recently completed my Newcastle's Whitecoats regiment of foote made from Warlord Games ECW plastic and metal infantry.

Feel free to come and have a look at my blog which contains information and pictures about the real regiment and their famous last stand at Marston Moor.

Regards,
Matt
ubique-matt.blogspot.com

Very nicely painted; I hope that they give as sterling a service for you as they did for the King.

Great looking regiment, well done!

Wow – cracking looking regiment Matt!!

Outstanding work! I've been following your blog for a little while now and I must say that you've achieved a really great overall effect with those Warlord Games models!

They look great.

I have a question though, which may be dumb to someone with a better understanding of the period. Why so many blue Scots bonnets? I have only seen that bonnet on Covenanter figures before….

Great looking unit

hussarbob1746.webs.com

Very nice.

Top notch! I hope mine come out half that good…

Thanks for all the feedback, greatly appreciated.

Hi Phillius,
I must admit I think I got a little carried away with the bonnets, although there are actually relatively few on display – less than 1 in 4. They are just hogging the camera!

My line of reasoning was that little is known for certain about the colours of the uniforms (as we would now regard it) of the period. Being a regiment which recruited from the north east border regions I imagine (but have no proof) that a fair number of people would have been wearing bonnets – regardless of the colour.

I've based and altered a number of figures to represent the illustration, by Graham Turner, of the Whitecoats from the Osprey book on Marston Moor. If you look closely on the picture one the figures is wearing a blue bonnet.

It's interesting to note that even the appearance of one of the most common (soft) headgear associated with the ECW, the Montero cap, is open to debate. Unlike the equally well known Monmouth cap which was basically a knitted skull cap no-one can say for definite, as far as I know, what these actually looked like.

(Don't tell anyone but I also intend to use these as Scottish troops.)

Regards,
Matt
ubique-matt.blogspot.com

A canny bunch of lads they are :)

Yep you are right blue bonnets were quite common in the northern army and would have been a local civilian costume/fashion.

Lowtardog

There is no evidence that the Northern Royalist army wore
blue bonnets,I used to be in the Sealed Knot and we had endless discussions about this and we came to the conclusion
that it was poetic licence on the part of Newcastles regt
within the Knot and when tackled about it they said oh well
it looks good.No there is not a shred of evidence to support
this,but sadly it has become a fashion in wargaming circles
to portray some of them in Scots bonnets,even warlord games
are at it….what next Cromwells Ironsides in top hats..Repeat something often enough and it becomes fact…

Regards,Nice paint job though…..Great Wargame period

Steelback

Er, Steelback, I'm pretty sure there's a evidence from 1642 that mentions Newcastle buying 3000 blue bonnets for the troops he was raising in Northumberland and Durham. (Just tracked that down from another forum- Nothumberland and Durham composition papers is the beast!). Newcastle had to go to press to defend himself from the heinous charge of recruiting Scots (fairly ironic considering 1644).

Whether they really were typical Scots blue bonnets or some other sort of style cap (eg Monmouth) and whether Newcastle's were still wearing them in 1644 is another question!

Timbo W

'Whether they really were typical Scots bonnets or some
other sort of style ETC'is the point i,m trying to make.
There is no evidence………not a shred.

Its like the flags some wargamers portray as being
Newcastles..the only KNOWN flag was Yellow with a black
cross in the center which belonged to Lamplughs Regt,one
of several Whitecoated regts all under the command of
the Earl of Newcastle.

One of the problems that a lot of people have is assuming
that the entire Northern Royalist army wore white coats
because they were commanded by the Earl himself..One of
the results of this is the Red flag with white crosses.
This particular flag is unknown,but is given to whitecoat
regts simply because it was a flag belonging to a northern regt……..

Regards

Steelback………

I've just found this on the Baccus website and thought it was interesting:

"Many secondary sources, (Haythornthwaite and Gush to name two) will give the example of (the flag discussed) belonging to John Lamplugh's regiment of Newcastle's Army.

The source for this is Brigadier Peter Young's book on Marston Moor, which is the first time it appears. The Brigadier seems to have 'designed' this colour based on the following premises:

- The regiment is recorded as having flown a yellow colour.
- Lamplugh had a cross fleury on his coat of arms therefore would have used it as 'difference'.

A leap of faith then gives the above colour. Fine as a piece of guesswork, but it has subsequently appeared as hard evidence in every secondary work on the subject since."

link

Matt Black

So what makes the Baccus website so special,we in the Knot
had access to a lot of material on the war that might not
have been seen by members of the public in general,and
I can assure you that the yellow colour in question is
more accurate than the Baccus website would have you believe…….Still you are free to put what colours
you like with your regiments……It reminds me of the
old saying,' its my party and I will do what I want to'.

I think I will choose a pink colour for Wallers horse,thats
as realistic as a lot of people get…..

Regards

Steelback

Steelback,

I'll confess that having bought Peter Young's brilliant book more years ago than I care to remember, I had thought that Young himself has admitted to the speculative nature of the design. Ah well, that's age for you. Still I am sure Matt and everyone else on the site is eager to know the material you possess which underlies your assurance. I have been a "flag geek" for years, and primary source information on flags of many periods is much more scarce than you might think, so many thanks in advance for sharing.

Mollinary

You've made them look rather good :)

Very nice! Decades ago our group got into ECW and I bought tons of Minifigs 15mm figures. Naturally I made Newcastle as well and painted them white-they look rather like Napoleonic Austrians though…..

By the way….

Why is that one fellow using a reversed musket?

Excellent.

A late entry to the thread!!

The reasoning for the use of red flags with white cross 'devices' by Newcastles in the SK is that a particularly large number of such flags (eleven!) were listed as being taken which may indicate that instead of the losing regt running and thus saving their colours, it was either taken en masse or destroyed. Moreover, this is more than a single full regimente's complement of colours and,in common with some other Generals, Newcastle may have raised a 'double regt'; the Duchess of Newcastle's states that "my Lord had chosen for his own regiment of foot, 3,000 of such valiant, stout and faithful men….that were ready to die at my lord's feet."

Certainly, Cromwell in letters concerning the battle of Gainsborough in July 1643 states that his forces were were stopped from following up their rout of the Royalist advance guard of cavalry by the arrival of Newcastle's main army, the infantry of which, totalled about 50 colours, including "my Lord Newcastle's own regiment, consisting of nineteen colours." Stuart Reid theorises that the 19 colours indicate a make up of the following companies: Col, 2 x Lt Col, 2 x Major and 14 Captains based on the known fact that in the Marston Moor campaign, Manchester's Regt had : Col, Lt Col, 2 x Major and 14+ Captains.

If the eleven colours are from Newcastle's regt, does the fact that only 11 colours were taken indicate that the regiment reduced the number of companies to keep them at a viable size? Does the total number of colours overlook the Field Officers colours which do not have crosses? Of course, there is the possibility that some colours may have been saved.

Finally, it would be wrong to imagine that it would operate on the field as a single unit. Accounts of battles indicates that the fighting unit was a battalia of 500-750 men; just as some of these were formed by combining understrength units, larger units would split into several battalia (eg Manchester's, Tilliers and several other units at Marston Moor). It is also a fact that on campaign, the strength of units soon dwindle through illness, straggling, desertion – and the odd casualty. Therefore, even if originally recruited to the planned strength of 3000, the field strength would be considerably less. Therefore, at full strength and using Reid's organisation, the regiment could theoretically split into 4 battalia under either a Lt Col or Major. However, the most likely situation at field strength would be to operate in 2 battalia under the Lt Cols. By the end of the 1644 campaign, it is quite likely that only one battalia could be formed.

Well put Drillmaster. I'd add that the flag description is the best candidate to be Newcastle's but it's certainly not proven one way or the other. Sadly the sources are so few and far between for ECW coats and colours that's often the most that can be said.

On the other hand, another possible reason for lack of a 'full set' if you like, is that the Parliamentarian soldiers ripped many of the captured flags up for keepsakes, or at least that was what the despatches to London claimed. I also wonder if a bunch of flags were in Scots hands and thus not accounted for.