"Churchill Model Dilemma" Topic

That pesky John the OFM "made" me dig out my stash of Battlefront Churchills--he wants to do Kingforce; I had collected a bunch of early marks for Tunisia and Italy.

And then I got to looking closely. There are problems.

11 Churchill IIIs: OK.

3 NA75s: bad track castings on one; a semi-bade one on another. Will submit replacement request.

4 Churchill IVs and 2 more Churchill IIIs: wrong track castings. All of these have the track sections with the round escape hatch, for the Mk VII and beyond.

Well, carp. I'm not sure I want to request replacements for the *wrong* track castings, as all they will do is send me entire packs, which I find wasteful.

Anyone know if there were any examples of early Churchill marks being refitted with round escape hatches?

And why doesn't anyone make a Churchill ARV? (I suspect it's not too hard to gin up, but all the same…

Allen

I had a similar experience with an order for Churchills a few years ago – I don't think a single pack was right, though some had extra bits that allowed me to correct deficiencies in other packs! :o)

Anyway, to answer your question – no, the round hatches were definitely only a feature of Mk VII & Mk VIII Churchills, sorry.

I was hoping you would answer--and I was afraid that's *what* you would answer!

Ah, well. We'll see if BF wants to replace just the track sections. Meanwhile, I'll do some measuring for making new hatches, just in case.

At least I think I have an ARV Mk. I solution. A spare hatch component from an Old Glory/Command Decision "carro commando" fits the BF Churchill turret ring perfectly. And although the hatch arrangement is not *exactly* that of the ARV, it fits my "close enough" criteria. Add a couple of stowed jib booms, some boxes for pulleys and such, a twin Vickers K…

Allen

Yes, I think even the uparmoured earlier models kept their round hatches.

The ARV is really just a turretless Churchill, so easy enough to bodge up on a Mk 1 chassis. Like you say, piles of gear, winches etc will make the look. Another interesting bit of kit mentioned in Churchill squadron accounts is the slave battery carrier, which IIRC was on a Loyd carrier chassis. Just the thing to tear around after the ARV!

"Carrier, Tracked, Starting and Charging", you mean! Yes, Accurate Armour makes on in 1:35, and it's well illustrated online, so a 15mm conversion is quite straightforward:

link

Allen

Oh, I thought you meant models of a fat guy in a derby and a pin-striped suit, smoking a cigar!

BF recently sent me the parts that needed replacing – barrels for the most part. They didn't send an entire new blister, though in the past I know they've done that. Mind you, I use BF NZ for customer service, BF US may be different.

TO second Mark, every Mk X or XI I have seen pictures of just had the applique armor added to the hull. Logically, the only way to change the opening would be to replace the hull plates or to build an adapter to fit it, the latter choice would still leave the weaker square opening and the former would seem to require a complete rebuild of the hull (not a field shop sort of fix).

Now a number of the upgrades had their original turrets swapped out for Mk VII turrets, but that is another story.

early marks square hatches.. 1-IV..V VI were IIIs and IVs upgunned or CS versions.. the square hatch was discovered to be a weak point which is why in the VII onwards they went with round escape and drivers glacis hatches..I had a FOW 15mm revovery churchill once, they don't make it any more? gosh us 20mm persons have a walth of options..the 7 has the cast hull with the plate roof with an applique band around the turretbase, gib=ving it a noticable falring and most, but not all with cheek bulges around the gun mounting
all you need to know is here
link

Allen, if they do send you entire replacement tanks, could you not use the wrong ones as terrain markers? Model them up as wrecks, and you could cover up the offending hatches with foliage or earth.

S&S do all sorst of Churchill bits and bobs and marks in 20mm???

Chamberlain and Ellis have all the information needed to sort out all the marks. I was just wondering if anyone knew of exceptions. As Cardinal Hawkwood says, it wou;dn't have been very practical.

I'll see if BF are inclined to send replacement track sections, but I'm coming to the conclusion that covering the round hatch with a square hatch and coaming is a simple enough fix. Not difficult, just a little time-consuming.

Six "inoperative" (wrecked, objective) models would be a few too many, I'm afraid!

Allen

I take the blame for everything around here.
picture

You meant:

link

(That's so damn funny, it's worth more than one use.)

Six "inoperative" (wrecked, objective) models would be a few too many, I'm afraid!

Not the way mine perform.

Alternatively, I've seen plenty of people using stowage to cover up wrong details. Probably not a good idea to hang your gear over the escape hatch, though.

As posted earlier on the FOW forum:

A quick summary of the visual changes seen with the "Heavy Churchill" (Mk VII 75mm & Mk VIII 95mm) from David Fletchers Mr Churchill's Tank .

Different shaped 'composite' turret with welded top plate & cast vertical faces. There is a distinct 'roof' not seen on the earlier turret.
A thickened cast lip or skirt around the turret base.
Absent commanders cupola, initially with a simple 2 piece hatch, 1 or 2 periscopes set into a rotating collar. (also retrofitted to earlier Marks) Later on the 'All Round Vision' cupola was fitted with 8 episcopes in a similar collar & hatch. There were 2 versions of this FWIW.
Removal of turret & pannier door pistol ports.
Welded hull.
Rounded escape hatches & drivers vision port & hull MG mounting.
Deeper hull air outlet (8" vs 5" so not exactly major!).
Increased armour on hull & turret.

There were also internal, mechanical & suspension changes which aren't worth going into here as they can't be seen.

Fletcher comments that "to the untrained eye it is difficult to identify the Mark VII from other Churchills….. "

The changes aren't particularly major but they do exist. From what I was able to glean from Fletcher the reworked Churchills retained the sqaure escape & drivers hatches & the square, sunken hull MG mount.

A link to photos of surviving Churchills of varying models – the Crocodile is basically a Mark VII link

It depends upon the degree of rivet counting syndrome that you suffer from. I'd notice the difference, but then again when I started off the basic Airfix Churchill stood in for all versions!

"the basic Airfix Churchill stood in for all versions"

Yes, the Airfix Mark ummm.

I converted one into a Mark 1 years back, it didn't see action for 30 years!

OK, thanks, Huw. Apart from the shape of the escape hatch, all the main visual changes affect the turret and hull, and fortunately, I have the correct turret and hull castings for Mk IIIs and IVs.

The Battlefront track castings for the early marks include the angled sheet metal channel shown towards the front of the sides of the Armour in Focus site's Mk II and Mk IV, but as it is absent from the photos of the Mk V, I don't think it's a sin to omit it (the BF Mk VII track castings don't have it).

The air intake boxes are identical between the early and late track castings. The late ones do not have track section racks that don't seem to appear in photos of the early ones, so nothing to remove there. I'm not going to obsess over some small discrepancies in the number and placement of rivet heads and bolt covers.

I think this is now a plan. Thanks for your help!

Allen

Pics when you're done, Allen?

That's a good idea.

Allen

Maybe you're obsessing too much on the details. But then you also play Napoleonics, don't you?