"Hitler and Franco" Topic

The relationship between Nazi Germany and Nationalist Spain has always been somewhat perplexing to me.

Certainly, Hitler is at least to some degree responsible for the ultimate Nationalist victory, and Spain and Germany of the time share many (though definitely not all) common ideals.

And yet, when Hitler wants Spain as an ally, or at a minimum permission from Franco to move troops through Spain to take Gibraltar, Franco says no.

Why? Was he afraid that German troops in Spain would never leave? Did he believe, even that early on, that the Axis cause was doomed to defeat?

Again, after Franco's refusal, many of Hitler's generals say, "Who cares what Franco wants? Just bulldoze through him.", and yet Hitler does not.

Again, why? Adolf was certainly not shy about invading recalcitrant nations. Did he believe that Franco was strong enough to give him a problem? Was he afraid of a repeat of the Napoleonic Spanish debacle?

Not really my period, but I have always been curious about these questions.

I painted some Battlestandard miniatures recently. They had separate heads. If you can get some Persian cavalry with Hellenistic Greek heads that may solve your problem.

My take is that at that time Hitler didn't saw Gibraltar and United Kingdom as important. And apart from opening a new front why should the germans invade a fascist regime?, what would have been the impact on the Italians, Rumanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Fins and even fellow Germans?.

Again, after Franco's refusal, many of Hitler's generals say, "Who cares what Franco wants? Just bulldoze through him.", and yet Hitler does not.

A bad idea, if there was one thing that would have united the Franco and nationalist parties it would have been a hostile invasion of Spain

John the OFM

I saw a post from you earlier, and it was on topic. Did you change it to be funny, or is this some weird new bug?

Franco at heart was a Carlist and not much of a fascist. He was a right-wing monarchist, Catholic and nationalist and while he may have had good relations with Italy and Germany his background is deeply rooted in Spanish politics and history and not always compatible with nazi Germany.

He very astutely maneuvered politically to stay out of WWII, getting rid of more extreme elements by sending them to Russia as said above.

Franco was still busy hunting down the last bastions of Republicanism and rebuilding Spain, at that point a very poor country ruined by war. Franco's demands for a Spanish amounted to Germany paying for Spain's rebuilding and Hitler didn't want to pay any ally that much. Franco settled for a pro-axis neutrality and some covert support.

I do not agree that he was a Carlist nor a monarquist at all. When the fights between the Carlists and Falangists began after the war, his regime favoured the Falange (fascists) against the Carlists. Also the relations he had with the deposed king Alfonso XIII, his son Juan de Borbón and the carlist proposed heirs to the throne, Javier de Borbon, were difficult at least.

He was a fascist dictator, but not an idiot who would charge into a war for the ideals of the fascism.

John the OFM

I saw a post from you earlier, and it was on topic. Did you change it to be funny, or is this some weird new bug?

The Bug strikes again.
somewhere out in the aether is a very intelligent respone from me.
If anyone finds it, let me know…

Patrick R is right. Franco was essentially a reactionary right-wing monarchist.

This leads onto an interesting topic: The Gibraltar/Malta issue. Another example of Hitlers failure to understand the role of sea power and events outside mainland Europe. Doenitz begged Hitler to flood the Mediterranean with U-boats, rather than the Atlantic, and to take Gibraltar and Malta. With those gone, North Africa and the Suez Canal would have fallen into German hands. The Middle East would have followed shortly afterwards. Persia was already pro-German and would have remained so. India would have fallen to the Japenese. There would also be a Southern front against the USSR if desired. Defeat on this csale would probably have meant the fall of the Churchill government and peace.

He was a fascist dictator, but not an idiot who would charge into a war for the ideals of the fascism.

I wouldn't give Franco that much credit, he was a ruthless "petit bourgeois" dictator who managed to convince himself he was doing it all for country and monarchy, proclaimed the monarchy restored, but conveniently forgot to put an actual monarch on the throne, being too busy running Spain. The falange was decimated in the Civil War and the remainder were quietly purged by Franco and subsequently pulled into his political party just as the Carlists and other factions were, only to be pushed aside by good old opportunistic Franco after the war because it might damage his image when courting the USA.

I don't know if it was skill or dumb luck that allowed Franco to negotiate the Spanish political minefield and play everybody for the suckers they were.

I have a very different view on Franco proclamation of monarquism, his acts speaks different. Falange and Carlists were united but per all the sources I know the Falange had the upper hand and also helped by the regime (but favouring the Carlists if the Falange seemed to get more powerful).

Then we can agree he was an oportunist.

Franco realised Spain was in no way able to participate in another war in 1939. The ravages of the SCW had left her nearly bankrupt, her industry damaged and people starving. Spain needed the support of both the Germans and the USA. Franco was also worried that he had no way of defending the Canaries. By talking to Hitler, he avoided the fate of France, Holland, Denmark, but still allowed Spain to get oil and grain from the US.

Richard has it right – don't forget, the Spanish Civil War was just wrapping up in 1939, and after years of bloody war Spain was in no shape to anything exciting – Franco needed time and effort to rebuild the country, and getting into a major European war was not the way to do it

I think the Spanish would have given the Germans a good hiding if they'd invaded -not that that was on the cards of course.

mashrewba "I think the Spanish would have given the Germans a good hiding if they'd invaded"

Wow. What's the basis for that? Germany was at the top of its game in 1939 and Spain had just gotten through tearing itself to pieces?

Actual Spain may well have given the Germans a big problem. Not the Spanish so much, but Spain itself. With more than a bit of help from the Spanish of course. It would have been another minor theatre, which hitler would not want to waste to many troops on, so it would be underpowered, to little airpower short on supplys and hitler would most probably be impatient for whoever got stuck with it to wrap it up quickly. And of course, unless there was a major comitment of troops and supplys it would not get wrapped up quickly.

Besides, unless hitler wants a major rethink of the whole war Gibralter just isnt worth that much effort when he has the whole eastern front to worry about. Of course now we know that if instead of screwing around with the waste of effort that was seelowe, he had bounced on malta and gibralter things would have run very different at least in north Afrika.

I dont know if The germans could have gotten paratroops there without spanish help. So have to be from the sea, and again not sure if the Italian navy was up to the effort to help.

Spain imported all its oil from the USA, who had already restricted Spain to maintenance supplies plus a 10 week reserve. Joining the war would have resulted in that being cut off, and Germany could not have replaced it.

Franco had offered to join in 1939 – but GHitler had declined – there seemed no need for Spanish help in those heady days!

By the time Spanish help seemed like it would be useful to the Germans the Spanish could see that they might not be on the winning side after all…so the balance seesawed – one side or other was intersted at various times, but never both at het same time.

Didn't Hitler once say that he'd prefer having his teeth pulled rather than having to negotiate with Franco ever again?

Spanish Volunteer Division Azul went to the Eastern Front, but Franco withdrew it when it looked like the Allies were winning. On the other hand, plenty of exiled Republicans joined the French Maquis and Free French forces.

Lots of interesting stuff mentioned here – link

A Spanish friend once told me that Franco was a Galician and if you met one half way on a staircase you would not know if he was going up or coming down. Franco was a Spanish nationalist and a pragmatist who managed to face several ways at once, playing off Axis and Allies against each other. He had little to offer either side in a country ruined by the civil war. For instance, he did offer to allow Germany access from the French/Spanish border down to Gibraltar using Spanish railways, in the knowledge that Spanish rails were a different gauge and he had no rolling stock to speak of. Once the Germans realised that they would have to provide their own, the plan was shelved, but hey, the offer was there!

I think also the British were bribing the Spanish rather a large amount of money to stay neutral…..

Hitler didn't really want a war with Britain nor to dismember the Empire. He considered the British fellow Aryans, and successful ones at that. His ambitions lay to the east, not overseas.

It was the Anglo-French alliance with Poland, and the Allies' refusal to quit after Poland fell, that compelled him to conquer France; and again it was Britain's refusal to accept that defeat which kept the war going on that front. Hitler would have agreed readily to leave Britain alone at any time that they would have agreed to leave him to do what he wanted in the east.

Therefore, he was not thinking in terms of defeating the British until it became obvious that they would not make peace with him. Had he known that the British would be so intransigent, he might have planned for things like the capture of Gibraltar, Malta, Suez, etc., but only as ways to force Britain to make peace. But these were moves in the wrong direction so far as his own ambitions were concerned.

Hitler must have left some good memoires.

I think also the British were bribing the Spanish rather a large amount of money to stay neutral…

They were bribing a powerful clique of generals, whose support was fundamental for Franco to stay in power. Those generals came from the pro-Monarchist right (Varela was the most important), many of them were openly Anglophiles, and they opposed strongly to Falange.

Spain in the early 40s was a cauldron of political lobbies, that would have jump to each other throats at the first chance but for Franco's ruthlessness. Problem is that many historians trend to judge Spain in the 40s using parameters that would be correct for one decade later (i.e. once Franco get rid of all his political enemies in the Right, concentrating all the power in his own person… thanks to the help of Eisenhower's government, by the way).

Let us see what those lobbies were.

First we have Falange. This was not the party that existed before the Civil War (a small Fascist party, without much support neither between the population nor the army). It was a chimera, brainchild of Franco, composed of former Falangists, new, opportunistic, Falangists, former Carlists, and Agrarians. When WWII started Franco bid his time until the defeat of France. Then he put a Germanophile, pro-Nazi, to the head of Falange: his brother in law, Ramón Serrano Suñer. This Serrano Suñer had the support of the most radical rightist military and, specially, that of the German ambassador. Probably he conspired with the Germans to depose Franco and put himself as Dictator of Spain. In that case, he intended that Spain enter the war in Axis side.

Franco outmaneuvered him. Mind you that Franco main objective was to survive as the Caudillo. Nothing else mattered for him. The invasion of Russia was the chance he was expecting. He offered Germany the Blue Division… and sent away all Serrano Suñer's main supporters inside the Army (specially Muñoz Grandes). In the meanwhile he started to replace Serrano's supporters with conservatives (the same who maintained, with Franco's support, back channels of comunication with the Allies). In 1942 Serrano Suñer was forced to resign, after a carefully orchestrated incident at the Sanctuary of Begoña (Vizcaya)between Falangists and Carlists.

Once USA entered the war, Franco hurried (as much as he dared, anyway) to cut Spain's links with the Axis.

Then there were the Military. In some ways those were the most powerful men in Spain. Franco never dared to defy them openly, until he was secure of the support of the USA (it didn't happen until 1956). He covered them with honours and medals, and fancy positions… devoid of all political power; slowly, but steadily, replacing them with civilian servants (the called 'technochrats') The process was very slow (Franco liked to take one step at a time), and didn't succeeded until 1964. Later in his life he tried to back track, naming Admiral Carrero Blanco as First Minister. If Carrero Blanco wouldn't have been assessinated by ETA in 1973 probably he would have tried to install a military Junta or something very close, may be even tolerating King Juan Carlos as a figurehead (this is an intriguing, if scary, what if).

My opinion is that Franco would have like to enter the war in the side of the Axis if USA would have stay out of the war (he was a committed anti-Communist -he hated them with passion- and didn't like to much the British either… but he had a healthy respect for the Americans; probably he was too aware of the trashing that Spain had suffered at her hands in 1898, and didn't want to try her luck again). Probably he didn't trust Hitler either. He knew that Hitler despised the Spanish -some historians had advanced the hypothesis that the Blue Division was intended as a elite unit, to proof the Germans that a hostile invasion of Spain would be a pain in the ass; the arguments are interesting, but the actual proofs are sketchy; I rather prefer the other explanation, i.e. that the Blue Division was a way to partially satisfy Germany pressure on Spain, and to get rid of the pro-German clique (at least, the first volunteers).

I believe that Franco was the typical 'espadón' (literally 'Big Sword'). It's a Spanish nickname, coined in XIXth Century, for the Generals that used their control of the Army to control and/or manipulate the political destinies of the country. They were, usually, very ambitious, ruthless but also intensenly patriotic. Most of them, though not all of them (Espartero and Prim, for instance) were political and social conservatives; being very wary of popular vote and representative organisms. Franco was the last of a line of that kind of Generals. For him, Nazi Germany was too 'revolutionary' for his liking.

Regards
Antonio

if I recall, Hitler had pretty much decided on invading the Soviet Union by this time, and was hoping that the U.K. would throw in the towel. I doubt he would have been willing to expend the manpower and resources necessary to invade Spain in light of the above. In fact, he wasn't very thrilled when he had to delay Barbarossa to invade Yugoslavia and Greece.

Most of the stuff I`ve read on the Blue Division seems to point towards Franco placating Hitler and getting rid of the more radical (Flangist) elements at the same time.

Muñoz Grandes is a very interesting character. Fought with Franco in Morocco, commanded a corps during the Civil War, fought with destinction in Russia. Later represented Spain in the negotiations into joining NATO and represented Franco at the funeral of JFK.

For all his faults (and I`m sure he had many), Franco saved Spain from becomeing involved in WW2, I have a certain level of respect for that.

You also have to remember that a great deal of what industrial output Spain had was already being given to the Germans as payment for the Condor Legion.

Dolfie had little to gain by invading.

The American thrashing of Spain in 1898, as opposed to the British thrashings of Spain on an almost continuous basis from 1588 to 1805………….!

Franco was a realist. He knew that the real power was in the States, not in the fastly fading British Empire. Quite naturally he respected the power of the USA more than the power of Great Britain.

Very interesting link Timbo … I didn't realize so many exiled Spaniards joined the FFL, the Resistance and Free French. And I totally agree … Franco was many things … but certainly a realist tops the list …

Some friends and I used to play Flames of War, the giant WW2 board game, and I came up with some cards that allowed certain political changes under the proper circumstances. One of these was the possibility of Spain joining the war on the Axis side. And this actually happened in a few of our games. I don't recall whether it was a help or not. Allies poured troops into Portugal and quickly had a toehold on the continent at least a year earlier than the historical '44, but then it probably took them that long to knock Spain out of the war, so probably didn't help much either way.

There was also a card that would bring Turkey into the war on one side or the other, depending on how well the war was progressing for each side (they'd join the winning side).

I believe there were 6 cards total. At the start of a game the German player could draw (sight unseen) from 0 to 3 cards, and then the British player got to draw the same number. The cards were kept secret until/unless played. The real purpose of them was to keep the player uncertain about the possibility of such things happening, just as in the real war the Allies could not be absolutely certain that Spain would not join the Axis, etc. As useful or more so than actually playing the card.