"Otto Skorzeny" Topic

"What I'm, trying to say is that it's all an ugly business, so what are we trying to differentiate between here?"

I find it very easy to differentiate between the Allies and the Axis. (OK, a little bit harder to differentiate between the Soviets and the Nazis, but anyhow).

To kick around this concept of honor some more (and I understand and agree that it is personal interpretation, we won't all agree with each other), look at the 20 July plotters.

They were German nationalists, militaristic, unapologetic for Germany's wars of aggression, yet… they were, by my standards, honorable. Because they had a moral code prior to Hitler, and when they saw that Hitler violated that code, they undertook great risk to stand up against Hitler, and paid with their lives.

There are other German officers whom I regard as honorable, even if I disagree with other aspects of their historical record. I agree Skorzeny served the Third Reich well, although I'm a bit suspicious that, like Rudel, Reitsch, and Wittman, he might be just a bit more a product of the Goebbels propaganda machine than a front-line fighter. But I don't consider him as honorable, because I never saw that he had a moral code, other than worming his way into the Fuhrer's good graces.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts on the subject and I understand not all will agree…

John,

it is indeed the cardinal sin of the historian to view the past through modern eyes. And yes, history is all too often written by the victors; it is the duty of the historian to rely upon empirical analysis and a multi-disciplinary approach to seek to hit the truth of the matter as closely to the bullseye as humanly possible, whatever one's cherished desires as to the outcome of that analysis may be, as certainly as it is so for any practitioner of the Scientific Method. hence why we know that despite the impressive architectural accomplishments done in his royal name, Ramses II did *not* in fact win the Battle of Kadesh as decisively as his PR team would have us all believe…

You are right, the world is shades of grey. But IMHO some of those shades are so dark as to resemble pitch black, while other shades are close enough to the brightest hues of white to pass inspection.

One thing that sets Skorzeny apart IMHO from my own father and his peers is the cause that they respectively served.

I would assert that Skorzeny's cause was so dark as to pass for the black void of space, while the cause my father and his peers served was a dramatically lighter hue, Manzanar, a segregated military, Jim Crow, and all.

By their various deeds and the cause for which they committed them, do we have as good chance as any to know the one from the other.

Leland R. Erickson
henley-putnam.edu

Some good insights, here. And Thanks for your comments JT and others. So I guess it comes down to, we all agree, that the 3d Reich's cause was extremely evil. The SS has a historical rep of committing war crimes. We know that some members of the German WH, SS and others as well committed war crimes. All members of the 3d Reich's Armed Forces served an evil cause … We know those to be "ultimately" true … So if you the Math(so to speak) then they are all guilty. But as humans we know, that can't right … can it ? We all know about the "shades of gray" … Few things in war, and even life are black & white. I think some may believe, that since Skorzeny and say others like Wittman, they were considered good at their "job" … who knows, maybe even liked it? *(Remember what R.E. Lee said, about liking war, or Patton for that matter …). Then Skorzeny and Wittman are evil too ? Or at least were not "honorable" becaused they served an evil cause … and served it well. Well that point of view now does seem to me to have some merit. Of course one can rationalize anything … I better shut up or someone here will have me up for war crimes !

John Treadaway "A world of harsh black and white only exists within the certainty of the young and as the luxury of the zealot."

Hear hear.

Agreed …

"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

- Gandalf the Grey

Such as Skorzeny made choices about the times they lived in, just as my father chose to drop out of college and volunteer for the US Marine Corps right after Pearl Harbor (he was the youngest of nine and the first to be able to attend college in the first place). My father came back from the PTO a tropical disease casualty, and suffered repeated annual attacks of the disease until I was about 5 or 6 years old. He never was able to afford to return to college, and his health had also suffered terribly from the effects of the illness, as his civil service career suffered from his lack of a college degree. Dad knew what he stepped up to defend – and what it could cost him personally, as did IMHO such as the likes of Otto Skorzeny.

The Nazis appealed to willful ignorance, the arrogance of hyper-nationalism, and aggressively hateful bigotry as bedrock principles of their dogma, and enough of the German people bought it all hook, line, and sinker. They made their choices, and chose to at best *ignore,* and at worst accept what they were being told by their chosen leader was the gospel truth about his intentions towards those declared "untermenschen," and saw nothing wrong with it.

I know damn well that no-one here would *ever* entertain trying to claim there was a shred of a single redeeming feature to "The Final Solution to the Jewish Question." I know damn well that none of you would claim that this can be dismissed as "shades of grey."

Yes, Virginia, 'though most are writ in shades of grey, IMHO there are still some eternal issues which are indeed writ large in black or white, plain for all to see.

Leland R. Erickson
henley-putnam.edu

Leyland

I can't really disagree with anything you've said (and the LotR quote is very appropriate).

I – for one – don't find it 'easy' to differentiate between the Allies and Axis in the second world war. I know – in my heart of hearts – which side was in the right. Or at least more right than the other one. But I don't find it easy. And here's some of the reasons why…

Consider this. The UK didn't enter WW2 because it was attacked. It didn't wait: there wasn't a 'Pearl Harbour' moment that makes a decision like that 'easy'. There was a line crossed: Czechoslovakia.

I know I don't have to give anyone history lessons here, but my point is this: why wasn't that line Poland? Or China? Why did the Brits (and the French) allow the Nazis (and the Soviets) to carve up Poland the way they did both before the war 'started' and then throughout the war? And why did we not hammer the Soviets after the war when we had the chance (ie, before they had an atom bomb) as Stalin was in his own way (and if you just look at the numbers he killed) at least as bad as Hitler?

The Soviet ground forces carried out many atrocities on German peoples. Why aren't we as cross at them as we are at the Nazi Germans? Is it because the vast majority of the acts the Soviets troops carried out were, effectively, revenge for what the Germans did to them?

This clouds things for me.

Not satisfied with the depth of my confusion? All right, try this one: my late father was in the RAF. Whilst he didn't personally take part in the Thousand Bomber raids of German cities that were the very things that would have made 'Bomber' Harris a war criminal (assuming the allies had lost [and not a point anyone has come back to me on in this thread]), he was ground crew support on them and therefore complicit – in some people's eyes – in a war crime. Yet he was a very nice man, who never raised a finger against anyone (well, not that I saw).

But 50% of his flying colleagues never came back from the skies over Europe. And whilst he – like many of his generation – wasn't a great fan of the Germans in general (not bothering to draw much of a distinction between 'Nazis' and 'Germans'), I never heard him take the stance that my mum did. My late mother – who was bombed in the London Underground for the best part of a year solid and saw many deaths in the process, went to her grave stating that "the only good German was a dead German".

I would like to believe that she wasn't right and so this whole issue for me is one I have pondered time and time again.

I believe that History is painted in shades of grey and – yes, I would agree that some of that grey is pretty dark. As dark as a Panzer grey, certainly. I also believe that not so much of it is so light as to – with a good step back – look like purest white. But I do think that there are more than 256 shades of grey!

I think that – as gamers – one of our jobs is to analyse this. There are gamers who will not play a German force in WW2 games or – if they do – won't play an SS unit. But would play a Soviet force. And probably an NKVD unit. And would play a Mongol Army (good old Genghis, eh!…).

Perhaps – by playing games and looking at the little toys that represent real people (no matter how we try and hide that) – we have a chance to increase the contrast of our grey. To see things in a harsher light.

That's be nice.

In the mean time, I respect all of the opinions that have been stated here: a good thread that – as we pretty much started out in "Godwin's Law" territory – it hasn't got silly, which is always a nice bonus!

"Truth is after all a moving target" Neal Peart.

John T

The Allies certainly had their propaganda machine as well, and did an awful lot of white washing of "Uncle Joe" Stalin.

John Treadway has a good point, but maybe have you changed Polonia and Czechoslovaquia?, I think the line crossed was Poland.

Ooooops Yep sorry – wrong way round. It was me that needs the history lesson! But you knew what I was thinking – hence the 'carving up Poland' comments I made later.

I was (and am) writing it at work and need to pay a bit more attention to detail but you all got what I meant, which was good.

John T

The Final Solution, was clearly not a shade of gray … but the blackest black. And yes … no one, save for those like in the current Iranian Regime, Islamic Fanatics, etc., would dispute that … And again John, makes some good very points. And personally I got out of historical mini gaming, just because of the fact, that after serving in the infantry as long as I did. And my continuing study of history(since my days in HS), I choose in '90 as I was getting off Active Duty, to go Sci-fi. The Axis Powers and it's allies as well as the USSR, were not the side I wanted to play. I have over a dozen(+)6mm scale Sci-fi armies. And that not only includes humans factions, but Orks, Lizardmen, etc. that don't exist(as far as we know!). I can't imagine playing a historical or modern mini Wargames, at this time, where US, UK, Aussies, etc. are "killed" by N/Koreans, Chicoms, VC/NVA, Iraqis, Al Quada, etc. It's all too close to my reality … I certainly study all military history regardless. But for Wargaming … I prefer the more "abstract" … However, as John mentioned, we still analyse and evaluate the tactis and techniques of the "Huns" of WWI, the Nazis, IJF, Chicoms, VC, the forces in all the Mid-Eastern Wars, etc., etc. … And again, we know about those who do not study history … But for me, knowing history and experiencing some of it, I'd rather "roll the die" it the Future Sci-fi Wargames … As I can remain detached …

"The Final Solution, was clearly not a shade of gray"

And you're totally right, but I think JT point was that if one thing is total black that not make the rest of the things clear white.

I know what you mean Legion – I haven't got your background but I made – and make – similar decisions and choices.

I spent an awful lot of time playing Star Trek games… (in the days when the 'Prime Directive' meant something [though not too much to Jim Kirk…]). Nowadays, I spend a fair amount of time with stuff like Slammer's games, but I can and I do play historical games too.

In the end – as to the original post question – I'm not sure we'll ever know all the details of who was and who wasn't left alone after WW2, and why. Gosh, we live in a world where the US Germ & Chemical warfare information needs were so great* that the Japanese members of the WW2 unit that built their Chemical Warfare experiments, and carried them out on live Allied soldiers and Chinese civilians were not had up on war crimes so that they could be pumped by Government bods for info. And then we could talk about Rockets with good old Werner, versus underground slave factories er… with good old Werner.

Problem is, I don't want to live in a world where people are used in slave labour camps but I also don't want to live in a world where the US didn't put 12 guys on the moon which they probably wouldn't have done without Mr Von Braun.

I just don't know how to square that circle: it is beyond my ability to steer consistently by my internal moral compass.

Ultimately, that's my failing, I guess.

John T

* on account of what the Soviets were (probably) building

Hi

In 40, a commaning officer in the Luftwaffe named Wilkie was discovered to have a jewise wife. When Goering visited the unit and was met with a solid wall by the crews, ordered that their shame had to be reflected in having the unit's badge, the ace of spades, painted over with a red stripe.

The unit supporting the commander promptly painted out the swastickas as well.

Were they "nazi's" or men fighting for their country.

A few years late, a younger cousin of this Wilkie was an ops type for the US. His family had been missionaries in the late 30s and he had been bombed as a kid by the Japanese. Hated the japanese for life. In his career in the 50s was attached to the FFL in north africa to study their insurgency tactics. During that era, he had occasion to go look up Skorzeny. Did so, liked him. To his death recently insisted that Skorzeny supplied useful insights to his efforts on doing ops for the US.

Black, white or grey?

Rocky

Such as Skorzeny made choices about the times they lived in, just as my father chose to drop out of college and volunteer for the US Marine Corps right after Pearl Harbor

Interesting that your father was in the Marines – one of its most famous sons had this to say about his service in the Corps:-
"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."
General Smedley Butler one of the most decorated marines!
I'm not saying that your's father wasn't genuine in his motives for fighting or denigrating the sacrifice that he made, but you have to be aware that the US military isn't always a benign organisation and to point out that he made that decision after his country was viciously attacked. Prior to that many of his fellow countrymen were strongly opposed to any intervention in what was seen as a European problem. There are more shades of grey than you think.

Well John, you and I have always seem to think in similar light in the past and I'm sure we will in the future … And surely Von Braun knew of the slave labor … In fact some historians claim that more people were killed in the slave labor population then were actually killed by the V-1s and V-2s they made … And that is very interesting, Rocky … regardless of white, black or grey … And I don't doubt it. Into the early '80s, the NATO military was "wargaming" scenarios with German Officers that fought the Russians in WWII. Can't pass up good intel like that … regardless …

Good points Fred … I remember seeing that on the History Channel … The more we discuss this the "Grayer" some things get. And in turn … the Blacker some do also …

Like I said, ultimately, I am incapable of being a final arbiter in this. I'll return to the Seneca and the Neal Peart quotes I made earlier and content myself with the notion that the 'truth' has eluded many finer minds than mine over the centuries.

Over all, I'm pretty glad that the general result of WW2 was what it was and the fine detail I'll leave to others for now while I think on it some more, luxuriating, as I can, in the time and opportunity to do so!

Good night.

John T

Have to agree with that John …

"Interesting that your father was in the Marines – one of its most famous sons had this to say about his service in the Corps:-

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

General Smedley Butler one of the most decorated marines!"

Yes, Mr. Cartwright, he was indeed. He also derailed an apparent fascist coup d'etat:

link

"I'm not saying that your's father wasn't genuine in his motives for fighting or denigrating the sacrifice that he made, but you have to be aware that the US military isn't always a benign organisation and to point out that he made that decision after his country was viciously attacked."

Pardon me? Did I assert that the US military is lily-white? IIRC, I most assuredly did not.

Would you like me to catalogue the less than savory campaigns of the US Armed Forces? I know them about as well as I know their more honorable campaigns… from the Trail of Tears to My Lai, from the Battle of the Crater to Butler's campaigns in the "Banana Wars."

Like all things in the universe, it is IMHO a matter of degree.

"Prior to that many of his fellow countrymen were strongly opposed to any intervention in what was seen as a European problem. There are more shades of grey than you think."

America's isolationism is no revelation for me; I stated plainly that I have studied the period since childhood, including the Great Depression et al. My extended family lived those times, suffered hunger during those times, desperately looked for work – *any* work- that would bring enough money for something to eat so the process of narrowly avoiding going hungry could begin again the next day. Americans wanted food, clothing, shelter during those times, not another foreign misadventure "making the world safe for democracy."

So to repeat my statement one last time; yes, I agree that the world is mainly shades of grey, *and,* there are some things every now and again, that are so dark as to be indistinguishable from pitch black, and others that can pass for pure white.

For what it's worth, it literally took me a number of years to bring myself to paint a wargame army of WW2 Germans; I just couldn't bring myself to put brush to figures. Finally, I hit a compromise that made it work for me; my "regulars" were the Spanish Blue Division, while my late war force was the Waffen SS Totenkopf.

Shades of feld grau, to be precise.

Cheers!

Leland R. Erickson
henley-putnam.edu

Hi

And thus, bashing the marines, i think this needs to repair to the Fez.

History is short of examples of anyone who cannot be accused of bad things.

R

And thus, bashing the marines, i think this needs to repair to the Fez.

Who is bashing the Marines? Is it bashing the Marines to point out that sometimes their political masters employ them on less than savoury missions?

The Nazis appealed to willful ignorance, the arrogance of hyper-nationalism, and aggressively hateful bigotry as bedrock principles of their dogma, and enough of the German people bought it all hook, line, and sinker. They made their choices, and chose to at best *ignore,* and at worst accept what they were being told by their chosen leader was the gospel truth about his intentions towards those declared "untermenschen," and saw nothing wrong with it.

IIRC Hitler never got an overall democratic majority from the German people, but came to power as a result of intrigue, blackmail and intimdation. So the extent to which he could be claimed as the Germans chosen leader is debatable. Once he had power he maintained it in the usual dictatorial fashion with a combination of rabble rousing, bribes and threats. Those that openly opposed Hitler found themselves in the concentration camps along with all the other undesirables like gays.
As for why some of the German people "bought" it that is not hard to understand. Germany had suffered a humiliating defeat in WW1 and then suffered the great depression made worse by having to pay war reparations and unlike most western European countries didn't have any colonial holdings to buffer economic hard times, having lost all of them after WW1. Along comes a man who promises to right the wrongs of WW1 and grab some colonies for the Germans like Britain, France, Portugal, Spain, the USA etc had already, where the locals could be economicaly exploited for the benefit of the home country.
As for the final solution I'm not well read up enough on it to know what percentage of the German people were fully aware of what was going on there. I know the propaganda films put out by the Nazis show the inmates tending gardens etc, but given the number of people involved in rounding up, transporting and supplying the camps some word must have got out and significant numbers of people must have known what was going on.
The really scary thing about the nazis is that such behaviour is not unique and it is possible to turn otherwise rational, humane people into genocidal killers as we have seen recently in the Balkans and Africa.

Hi

Fred, marines do not have "masters" and are not robots or "good germans".

R

Fred, marines do not have "masters" and are not robots or "good germans".

Really? So the president of the USA who is also commander in chief of the US armed forces and also a politician can't order them into action then?! I never knew that!

Gentlemen, I'm beginning to smell a distinct aroma of *dog biscuits*…

Leland R. Erickson
henley-putnam.edu

Hmmm… should the Alpo Beef Chunks Dinner be served hot or cold? Would the wine pairing help?

Ah, and it was going so well too……

Hey, c'mon fellas, no need for this, let's stick to the topic and…

Ah, what the heck.

munch munch munch…

Hi

The pres can order all he wants. He is not a master.

His command can be ignored by any soldier in the chain of the command down to a private if that command is deemed illegal.

Non military people don't really understand the US military. The pres can yell and scream and so on, but somewhere down the line a Sergent actually runs the troops.

So, Fres, sarcasm aside, any marine would find your post insulting. And basically incorrect.

Rocky

Who the hell is Fres? I think you will find that it applies to all combatants. The "I was just obeying orders" excuse being dealt with at a place called Nuremburg over 60 years ago. That doesn't alter the fact that it is the politicians who decide when, where and against whom the armed forces go to war. General Smedley Butler despite his personal opinion of the dubious morality of what he was engaged in still went, did the job, and earned a bag full of medals in the process.

Hi

Fred I offered that history is full of accusations which reason from an individual evil to tar the whole. Given. We are short of populations pure as the driven snow.

Anyone can be accused of "dubious"..choosing to specify marines is an insult to a group based on some vague accusation. Without merit.

And no one claimed "only following orders" here, meaning you invented yet another line to avoid admitting your insult.

Rocky

Anyone can be accused of "dubious"..choosing to specify marines is an insult to a group based on some vague accusation. Without merit.

Who is making vague accusations – I quoted the words of a very decorated marine about his experiences in the corps and the sort of missions he undertook and the reasons for doing them. Are accusing General Smedley Butler of being a liar?

In 40, a commaning officer in the Luftwaffe named Wilkie

Rocky, I googled "Wilkie" and "luftwaffe" very quickly and couldn't find any mention anywhere of this. Mind you, it was a very cursory overlook I gave, so could well have missed something. Do you have any cites or references to this CO and the incident to which you referred? Thanks,
--
Tim

And no one claimed "only following orders" here, meaning you invented yet another line to avoid admitting your insult.

Actually you did! Or what does this mean?

His command can be ignored by any soldier in the chain of the command down to a private if that command is deemed illegal.

That rule applies to all combatants now. If an order is considered illegal and it is carried out it is no defense to claim "I was just obeying orders". That principal was established at Nuremburg and applies as much to US Army, Navy, British Army, RAF, Navy and any NATO force AFAIK. Any of them can refuse an order if it is considered illegal – although they may be called on to justify the refusal subsequently. There is nothing unique about the US Marines in this case.

Hi

Tim, one of the aircraft with this story is illustrated in the Recent Osprey on 109E aces. The Wilkie name is spelled several ways and I may not be remembering the version in the sources.

So, Fred, the general admits to war crimes, therefore, all marines? As I said, this is reasoning from the specific to the General. If you had, as I did, indicate that all armies have someone who does things that are illegal, i would have had no problem. You said Marines and "masters". Thus, you are trying to wiggle out of admitting your prejudice.

Rocky

So, Fred, the general admits to war crimes, therefore, all marines? As I said, this is reasoning from the specific to the General. If you had, as I did, indicate that all armies have someone who does things that are illegal, i would have had no problem. You said Marines and "masters". Thus, you are trying to wiggle out of admitting your prejudice.

I never said that! Why do you have to invent things to take offense at? If you go back and read my initial post! I quote "that the US military ISN'T ALWAYS a benign organisation", not isn't ever, and subsequently "Is it bashing the Marines to point out that SOMETIMES", sometimes not always.
Neither have I ever said that other countries/armies have a whiter than white record, quite the opposite, but that seems to be something else you want to read into my posts so you can take offense at it!
My initial post was a reaction to Leyland's postings which seemed to imply that in his opinion the US military was whiter than white or as he put it "while other shades are close enough to the brightest hues of white to pass inspection." A position which he subsequently clarified.
As for the term masters which you seem to take offense at as well, all marines have someone that they take orders from, from the lowest private to the head of the corps don't they? Call it what you will, superior officer, master, boss whatever. I'm certainly not using it in the master/slave context. Maybe it is the difference between US English and UK English, but here in the UK master has a different conotation. School teachers are called master, captains of ships are called master etc.

hi

Fred and I responded with "we are short of examples…" of pure as the driven snow…and YOU responded thus, you initated this. You assumed I said something to attack.

And "master" does have a loaded meaning. That UK use Master as In a ship or school is irrelevent to the context of "their masters" when discussing someone following suspect commands.

R

Fred,

Your Jan 31 entry is spot on! Amazing how some, who can describe the exhaust pipe configuration of the Maus, are in turn totally ignorant of Germany's prewar situation.

To whit:

Everyone knows why the Nuremburg hearings were held in Nuremburg. Does anyone know why Hitler originally chose Nuremburg to hold his rallies?

Ralph

PS No way "Wilkie" is a German name.

RockyRusso 04 Feb 2010 10:23 a.m. PST

hi

Fred and I responded with "we are short of examples…" of pure as the driven snow…and YOU responded thus, you initated this. You assumed I said something to attack.

And "master" does have a loaded meaning. That UK use Master as In a ship or school is irrelevent to the context of "their masters" when discussing someone following suspect commands.

R

Ditto. I am really tired of 'certain' TMP members saying something asinine, and then, when confronted with it, immediately responding with "Oh, you crude colonials simply don't understand what that means in the King's English."

Baloney.