"Otto Skorzeny" Topic

The other side of the "Rudolph Hess" topic, in a way. I have always wondered how Skorzeny managed to remain free and alive.

A very colorful character, he was Hitler's commando: broke Mussolini out of prison, and was essentially the man responsible for returning Italy to German allegiance, he also was a key figure in the covert operations side of ther Battle of the Bulge, and when he did hold a field command, was highly successful with it, even when he had very little to fight with. He had the ear of Hitler to the point that he once told off Himmler with no repercussions.

Even more interesting, after the war he was held in an Allied prison, but escaped. He remained a key figure in the ODESSA (whatever that really was, I'm just speaking loosely here about the "Comrade's Organization") and lived for a long time in Spain, visited Egypt and several Arab countries, as well as France and South America, even returning to Germany from time to time.

Though his death was suspicious, he nonetheless lived a good long life after the war with considerable freedom. Always wondered why the Allies never tracked him down.

Why would they? He had been acquitted of the war crimes he was charged with and only escaped whilst awaiting 'de-nazification'.

He mainly seems to have been involved in various shady covert ops principally for right wing military dictatorships and neo-nazi organisations postwar as well as the CIA, according to his wikipedia biog anyway.

link

Pretty much on par for an ex SS commando I guess, but hardly worth tracking him down for.

There was no need, since he wasn't a war criminal.

He had a farm just down the road from me in Kildare, Ireland.

Yes, they talked about trying him as a War Criminal … but even the Brit Spec Ops Boys, said, Why, he's no War Criminal. He commited no war crimes … He committed no crimes. He was just a very effective Nazi Commando … and was on the losing side …

Assuming wikipedia has it basically right, his postwar career sounds a lot more unsavory than the prewar one.

As has been pointed out by the others he wasn't worth it as he wasn't considered a "War Criminal". Since he was acquitted by the IMT in 1947 and only escaped while waiting for his "Denazification" trial in 1949 there was no real reason to go for him.Franco,Nasser and Peron would sure not have let him go. Too much needed experience that he had that they could use. Robert

LOL I see one of the bugs is at work again. I posted this at 10:33 and it didn't go to the top and still says the last post was at 9:31. Robert

American Army officer David Hackworth visited him in Spain in the 1960s to see what he could learn. He enjoyed his chat but went away none the wiser.

Two die hards who did flaunt their Nazi associations in Spain were Leon Degrelle and Otto Remer. Remer, who was a good battalion commander, not much more, owed his late war rise, of course, to his role as putting down the July 20 plot in Berlin.

Skorzeny had quite the military career for someone who wasn't even a soldier when the war began.

Didn't somebody famous once call him the most dangerous man alive? And didn't the Americans put Eisenhower on lock-down for two weeks when the rumor surfaced that Skorzeny had been assigned to kidnap him?

Just old stuff I didn't emember in the first post. If all of that is true, I am still surprised nobody tracked him down, war criminal or not.

" I am still surprised nobody tracked him down "

Well, as he reputedly helped trained the Egyptian Army under the auspices of the CIA, then somebody clearly tracked him down, but not perhaps in the way you meant. He also supposedly trained Yasser Arafat, which I guess isn't that ironic really, as well as helping out the secret police of various postwar fascist dictatorships. He obviously got posted to the wrong branch of the SS in the war.

Still, whats an ex SS man to do eh? Join the Foreign Legion? oops.

"Still, whats an ex SS man to do eh? Join the Foreign Legion?"

A lot of them did…

I might have the wrong person, but wasn't the rumor (at least) that he was assassinated by either the Jews or the French or something odd like that? (Thus the questionable circumstances of his death…)

I THINK that it was maybe a car accident (?), but that the facts were odd in some way, so that there was always speculation that Mossad or somebody had a hand in it.

However, the wikipedia article says cancer.

Yes, some Former SS joined the FFL, and possibly died in French Indo-China … Fighting the Viet Minh …. *Sundance – IIRC you are talking about "The Butcher of Leon'", Piper. * Thaken – I don't see any reason for the Mossad or anyone else trying to kill Skorzeny. He didn't do anything wrong but fight for the losing side … I read a book written about in the early '60s, based on person to person interviews with the author. Pretty interesting … regardless.

Legion 4 "I don't see any reason for the Mossad or anyone else trying to kill Skorzeny. He didn't do anything wrong but fight for the losing side…"

Quite frankly, that seldom slowed 'em down. And if he DID train Arafat and others who were not well inclined to Israel… However, that is baseless speculation on my part.

When I was 3-4 years old in Madrid, I fell in the deep end of a swimming pool, unnoticed by my parents. Skorzeny fished me out. My old man, who had been a Free French Naval Officer during the war, always felt odd about shaking his hand and thanking him. Funny about life's little ironies.

So the man was a hero and beloved of small children. Cool story. You wouldn't be pulling our legs now, would you?

I'm pretty sure that Skorzeny never trained any Arab forces. However some former members of the Reich did … And that is an interesting story about the pool in Spain. But that would make you my age or older …

As far as I know and have read he was just a consultant to Egyptian President Nasser in the Middle East. Robert

OK, that rings a bell, Legion 4

I could be wrong, and please someone correct me if I am, but Skorzeny was a Nationalist and not necessarily anti-semitic …

Legion 4 I beleive you are correct, but I may be misremembering. Just as all Republicans are not against abortion, and all Democrats are against a strong military, there where lots of different stripes of Nazi. But it is easy to paint them all with a broad brush, which is one of the very things they are acused of.

Well again, I could be wrong … but I'd say there were more "Nationalists" in the Wehrmacht then pure Anti-Semites. However, that does not justify or excuse anything Germany did in WWII … Just the fact that so often, as Badger said, it's easy to use a broad brush … And it is true there were many shades of Nazi. Again, I'm not making excuses for anything they did. The same could be said about the VC during Vietnam. For every hard core Communist in the VC there were just as many "Nationalists" … And remember during the American Revolution, only about 1/3 of the "Yankees" were in support of the Revolution. 1/3 were Torries and the rest really just didn't care either way …

Wehrmacht? He was SS.

There is a difference.

To the best of my knowledge, Skorzeny was an honorable man.

I clearly know the difference between the Wehrmacht & SS … My point is your average German soldier was probably not a fanatic, and that would include Wehrmacht or SS. However members of both were accused and committed crimes. For that matter, the average WWII Japanese soldier was clearly more fantical and racist. Regardless, I too believe that Skorzeny was honorable …

Honorable? He was fighting for and defending a system that was murdering children in death factories, and he knew it.

I guess it all depends on how you try to define "honorable".

'I guess it all depends on how you try to define "honorable".'

Brave and loyal, and evidently not without human feeling, especially if the story of him saving one of our fellow TMPers is true.

Without faults? No. But honorable nonetheless.

Well I guess we have reached a point where, saying all that who fought for the Reich were guilty of something. Like I said, I don't believe you can broad brush all the German people anymore than you could all VC and NVA. As far as I know Skorzeny committed no war crimes … And fought well for his ocuntry … I served 10+ years on active duty with the US Army … I knew no rabid Nationalists or Capitalists that served with me. However at the time if you asked the average Russian, Chinese, Vietnamese, or some Middle Easterners, I'm sure they'd say otherwise … What you preceive is your reality. To the average Russian on the streets of Moscow I was a rabid, decedent, Capitalist … Which was far from the truth … And again, I'm not excusing any German or Japanese of anything …

Brave? Sure. Loyal? That too. Saving a drowning kid? Sure, I'll bet he even picked up litter.

"And again, I'm not excusing any German or Japanese of anything"

Well, you are actually. As far as depicting the enemy as evil, sure that's common. What made WW2 different, was that they were evil. Not just different, not just misguided, not just nationalistic for an opposing nation, but evil. Doesn't mean all Axis citizens were evil, far from it (my grandfather and uncles all fought on the that side, and they weren't evil people). But the cause they served was evil.

Now, if you want to talk honor among the enemy, look up Sophie Scholl. That's honor, at great personal risk and sacrifice. Someone who saw what was going on (like all the rest), saw that it was evil (like many, not all), and decided to do something about it (like so few). But calling Skorzeny honorable cheapens the word.

I think I see your point … I'm not sure if I agree with it. But you certainly have the right to express it. My Father was a wounded and highly decorated U.S. Army Infantry SGT in the WWII ETO and my Mother built P-39 Aircobras at that time also … If my father was alive I'd like to ask him what he thought about this … I guess since I was a US Soldier for over a decade('79-'90), and many of us were proud to be Americans but not political at all … but professionals. I figured that many Germans fought for the defense of their country not anything political or idealogically … But my thought process may be skewed, I was not there and you may be right …

But my thought process may be skewed

I think anyone with some military experience has a better understanding of the general psyche of soldiers. Extreme interpretations of large groups of people seems… extreme.

There are plenty of allied WWII veterans who have used the term "honourable" to desccribe some of their opponents. And they were there.
--
Tim

Well … yes, well put Ditto … I guess that's what I was trying to say. Soldiers in "the line", "at the front", in a combat zone, don't fight for ideology … They don't fight, using the old phrase, "For Mom, Apple Pie and the Girl you left behind.", but for survival. Survival of himself … but more importantly the survival of his comrades… I would like to think with my over a decade of serving as an Infantry Officer in 4 Infantry Bns(1 Air Asslt, 3 Mech) deployed repeatedly worldwide, I think I understand what goes on in a "Grunt's" or Tanker's mind in situations like that. And many WWII Vets have described their enemy as Honorable, again to paraphase Ditto. However, let there be not doubt, tuscaloosa, and I totally agree, the Germans, Japanese even the Italians, etc. … the cause they fought for was evil. And you could arguably add the Russians to that list … And I appologize if I offended any one … The Axis and their partners were wrong/evil … period.

tuscaloosa "But calling Skorzeny honorable cheapens the word."

Your lack of detachment cheapens your point.

Dude, understand the difference between Wehrmacht and SS. That one just won't go away.

Furthermore, we're not talking about some poor sod who froze to death at Stalingrad and who never had a choice.

We're talking about a guy who couldn't get enough even when he did have one. But no, he had to go serve Franco and the other crooks.

Because he liked it.

"I clearly know the difference between the Wehrmacht & SS"

Disagree. There is a difference between members of wehrmacht and the SS. Some WM are as responsible as some SS, indeed, some SS are as innocent as some WM. Once you serve in war you soon realize that there are no black and whites but endless shades of gray. As for Otto, it seems his record speaks for itself even before he put on a uniform…he was a violence junkie and war probably filled his cup to overflowing.

Piper was apparently murdered in France (where he lived). He was not the "Butcher of Lyons", however. That was Klaus Barbie……Allgemeine, not Waffen SS

Well I do know the difference between the WM & the SS … in a pure academic manner as well as historically. And in my post I mentioned, that both were accused and commited war crimes. And of course the reverse is as Canuck Cdr mentioned. Which goes without saying … And I totally agree with the comment … "endless shades of gray." And as far as Skorzeny liking it … and being a violence junkie … you don't have to be in the SS to suffer from that … I know of alot of US soldiers who had volunteered for 2 or 3 tours in Vietnam, most SF, Ranger, SEAL, USMC Recon types. And they were good at what they did … Being a combat arms soldier, its a given you are going to kill the enemy … And I'm NOT comparing them to the SS !! Clearly Otto was SS, and clearly he fought for the Reich … Did he commit war crimes ? From what I have read – no … As I said, the Brit WWII Spec Ops community didn't think he deserved to be tried for his actions and he commited no crimes. Save for being SS, supporting and fighting well for an evil cause … Well if that's the case, then he and all SS and even WM that fought well would be guilty … Sorry to upset some of you … But I can only go on my knowledge of History and time as an Infantryman … And we all can agree … the 3rd Reich, the Nazis and the SS, etc. were bad … were evil …

Yes, now I remember it was Barbie … not Piper … he was the Butcher of Lyon. Thanks for the correction … And IIRC, Barbie was not SS. And Troops under Piper's command were responsible for Malmady …

Barbie was the head of the Gestapo in Lyon, France from 1942 – 44. Robert

But no, he had to go serve Franco and the other crooks.

The statement is incorrect, he opened an engineering business in Madrid, probably he escaped here because he would be protected by Franco regime and as far as I know he maintained very close contacts and colaboration with neonazis groups in Spain and allegedly helped other nazis escape to South America, but he didn't serve Franco at all.

BTW, Barbie and Degrelle were also here maintaining a relatioship with the now extint neo-nazi group CEDADE.

For those of you who are interested in an overview of the Waffen SS and its founding practices of recruitment, training, political indoctrination, and early combat record presented in an historically sound manner utilizing primary sources:

link

The Waffen SS was founded by Theodor Eicke, and their early combat history reflected this fact, the historical record supporting this conclusion of Sydnor, et al.

Yes indeed, 'ole "Scarface" avoided prosecution for war crimes, as did many a member of the SS, Waffen and Allgemeine alike. IMHO the man possessed an exceptional instinct for self-preservation; he knew when to stick his head up – and when *not* to. That said, the Waffen SS was a carefully cultivated elite formation heavily indoctrinated to be "true believers" in Nazi dogmas – and operate accordingly, and Skorzeny was one of it's undeniable star players.

Honorable? That must be decided IMHO on a case-by-case basis, however, the overall record of the Waffen SS must be viewed honestly, so whatever Skorzeny's personal role may have been, whatever honorable conduct may have been practiced by many Waffen SS men, it is all small comfort to such as the victims of Bydgoszcz, Wloclawek, Oradour-sur-Glane, Tulle, Marzabatto, Ardeantine, Distomo, Sant'Anna di Stazzema, the Ardenne Abbey, Stavelot, as well as those unknown souls who died under the watch of those Waffen SS soldiers who, during their final recuperation after being wounded, served as guards at the death camps as a matter of official Waffen SS policy prior to returning to their frontline units.

I'll refrain from even discussing the conduct of the Waffen SS on the Ostfront, as that was a uniquely vicious combat environment of atrocity and bloody reprisal, atrocity and bloody reprisal.

On a personal note, I remember when Sony Pictures website promoting the sci-fi STARSHIP TROOPERS film compared the fictional Mobile Infantry of Heinlein's novel to elite troops just like the US Marines, Legion Etranger, or *Waffen SS.* As the son of an Old Corps US Marine who has studied the Second World War since growing up listening to family stories of "those times," I wondered what my father and his peers would have thought being lumped in with the Waffen SS. I suspected that the response would have been unprintable by even the standards of an Old Corps Marine DI confronted with the most obtuse recruit in his entire career.

As for the Legion Etranger, yes, AFAIK they did indeed recruit a share of Waffen SS veterans, but not apparently as many as have been attributed by some sources. Legion Etranger also has standards of recruitment, and not just *any* ruthless cutthroat will do, even for the green Hell of the Indochine invested with the well-and-thoroughly-aroused Viet Minh.

Leland R. Erickson
henley-putnam.edu
Proud Son of a WW2 US Marine

Hear, hear!

Hmmm … pretty well put BlackWidow … And only some one completely uninformed(or just plain stupid) would compare the USMC or FFL to the SS, ideologically or otherwise … And I think as you put it, on a case by case basis is correct. But no doubt, the SS, WM, etc., commited numerous war crimes … many went sadly unpunished … Of course many died in the war … As far as the Eastern Front, I've heard statistics as high as 75% or more of all German losses(WM, SS, et al) were on the Ostfront …

Hear hear!

And I third that Hear,hear! Robert

All I would remind anyone and everyone is this: we all know that history is always written by the victors.

Had the tables turned, Churchill and 'Bomber' Harris would have been tried and convicted of being war criminals, and with some justification. So would Truman and Lemay. And arguably Stalin should have been shot for what he did irrespective of who won. So what? To quote Seneca "What need is there to weep over parts of life – the whole of it is cause for tears".

What I'm, trying to say is that it's all an ugly business, so what are we trying to differentiate between here? I'm sure that Skorzeny had many good points, and I say that without irony or sarcasm. While we're on the subject, Heydrich also used to play violin and could play it very well, apparently. Churchill was an accomplished painter. So was Hitler.

What I'm alluding to here is that – like Legion 4 said – we have to be careful not to use too wide a brush to paint our villains, while – at the same time – keep our eye on the doughnut and not the hole. I don't believe that anyone is wholly 'evil' anymore than I believe that anyone is wholly good so why try and portray anyone like that? History makes the decisions it makes – as written by the winners – and it must be true because it's written down in books (and on Wikipedia, which no one mucks about with, right?).

So the closest we'll ever get to a realistic view of the guy is probably this: Skorzeny was, by all accounts, a fine soldier. He killed people for a living, was pretty good at it but probably had a fun side to his nature too. He may even have pulled small boys from swimming pools, who knows (I wonder who the character of Steiner in The Eagle has landed was based on…).

A world of harsh black and white only exists within the certainty of the young and as the luxury of the zealot.

The rest of us have to make do with 'grey-o-vision'…

John T