"Blitzkrieg Commander II or FOW 2nd. Ed. ??" Topic

Gentlemen, I am planning on my first 2010 project, it will be WWII "Russian Front" in 6mm. But before starting I would like to ask from you, fellow TMP members, for some opinions on which of this two rule-sets to use: Blitzkieg Commander II or the 2nd. Edition of FOW.
I would normally buy both and then choose myself, but this rules-sets prices are quite high.
As there are not many players, (or rather I say no players) for either rule-set here in Mexico City I will have to collect and paint both forces.
I play "Warmaster" and also "40K" so I am "familiar" with both games mechanics.
I will use 6mm miniatures because all my current terrain is that scale plus some storage and gaming space restrictions.
Thank you very much for all your help and comments
Aegnatius

So, the short answer is a question. What do your fellow gamers play? BKC or FoW? Go with what will give you more opponents.

I see you are going to be a trail-blazer for WW2 in your area, so it's really down to what would give you the game you're looking for.

Having played quite a bit of BKC in 10mm recently, I think you would be happy with it as a rule set. It copes well with quite large numbers of units on the table (we typically had 80-100 elements [a tank or an infantry base] a side), and larger games are usually what people are looking for with 6mm figures. Can't help you with FoW, other than to say that most FoW games in the club have had considerably fewer units on the table.

Colin

I have been playing BKC, CWC and FWC for quite a while, and have just received BKC II.

Two virtues of BKC-II (and recognizing acarhj's guidance as the first test cut):

1. All the army building information you need is there. Sure you will want to do more research about the period, but you do not have to buy any supplements to get special rules and whatnot that you would need to play the game. Cuts down the cost of ownership considerably, and saves you merging rules from book to book.

2. In my experience, they work, are fun, and encourage as realistic a set of tactics as can be expected from a wargame.

BKC is more focused on a top-down approach – giving the feel of a regimental sized action. Due to its command mechanism you get to move/fire some units several times in a turn and you may get some units that fail to move/fire in a turn. Some people love this as a method of representing friction on a battle field – others want to be able to have their metal troops do everything they want. BKC is a set of rules, they work with pretty much any figure scale.

FoW is a set of rules designed to sell the same company's miniatures. Therefore it is very much a 15mm rule set. It is also very geared towards army lists and tournament style play.

Well I will put in a plug for BKC just because I like it better. Personal opinion only here.

mjc

There are plenty of people playing FoW in 6mm, so I wouldn't let the scale issue put you off. I'm building a 3mm collection myself. The game actually works better in some ways with smaller scale figures, since you've got much more maneuver room on the same size table. You might want to scale the measurements down, but that's not really requirement.

I've played a lot more FoW than BKC (v1), and I like both. They are very different games though. Every vehicle or base in BKC represents multiple figures -- we played with 1 base = 1 platoon. FoW is 1 to 1 representation, although squads are made up of 2 bases. I know some people play BKC at 1 base = 1 squad, so at that level, they are much more similar. With FoW, you are focused on positioning of individual elements. With BKC, higher command and control aspects are the emphasis. If you have a taste for one approach or the other, that might guide your choice.

As others have mentioned, BKC uses an activation system that most decidedly does not guarantee you will be able to do something with each and every unit every turn. You have to choose your sequence of actions carefully, and put effort where needed most. The differences between nationalities are largely represented by command effectiveness. FoW has no such restrictions, and there is very little representation of "friction". You get to activate every unit every turn. Differences between nationalities are reflected in rules that tweak what different types of units can do in certain hands. Again, opinions vary considerably as to which is better.

I found BKC very easy to pick up and understand. FoW took a bit longer to learn, largely due to that lower-level of focus. I personally felt that BKC was a bit more bland in that there's not as much of a distinction between AFVs of similar types in the hands of one nationality or another, other than the aforementioned differences in command ability to activate. By adding enough HQs (not restricted in the rules), I was able to build a Soviet list that gave me fewer problems controlling my forces than the German player I faced.

Since I'm understanding you're not so concerned about playing the "official" game, I wouldn't get too hung up on the need or lack of need for additional books. While BKC provides individual vehicle data, it provide a limited number of actual unit organizations. There is a nice unit builder online that is, I think, free for one year. FoW puts that data into separate books. For either, you can locate any historical reference listing unit organizations and use that. Battlefront (publishers of FoW) have recently made nice summaries freely available that list all of the additional rules for most of the nationalities listed in the game, so you can apply those easily.

FoW only covers limited theaters, while BKC provides vehicle data for all theaters. This means you'll have to do a bit of conversion, or find 3rd party conversions, for doing anything but 1942-44 Europe, Africa or Eastern Front with FoW.

I've seen odd things in tourney settings for both (and other rules) so I wouldn't worry too much about that aspect. Any rule system can be gamed by players that have that mind set.

If you are contemplating mostly playing solo, BKC has a definite edge due to the command & control mechanisms.

I hope I've captured everything correctly. For me, the decision was largely based on who I expected to play. My sons wanted FoW, and there's a very active local community. That said, I do not seem to have suffered any long term brain damage from the experience, and I am fully capable of switching between the two. The same basing and miniatures can be used for both, though you'll need a somewhat different mix to represent the same units.

In other words, don't feel you're restricted to one or the other exclusively. Buy one now, and ask for the other (and a few others) for your next birthday present!

- Bob

They are two sets of rules with two different approaches. It will depend on what "level of command" you prefer. I used to play both game frequently and really enjoy both, but if you have to choose one then the issue is what level of play to you want.

BKC is more oriented on the guy who wants to command several battalions and deal with command and control decisions at that level. Although you can play BKC on a one vehicle = one vehicle basis, I believe most play it where on vehicle = a platoon. This allows you to easily control multiple battalions. I personnally thing BKC lends itself well to 6mm especially if you want to control larger formations.

FoW is more tactical in nature in that one vehicle=one vehicle. You command a reinforced company with several platoons in your basic unit. Your company is then reinforced by battalion, regimental, divisional, corps, and/or army assets, which is kinda' odd.

BK2 will be a smaller investment overall. The lists are all contained in the rules book. For FOW, you will need to get the army books in addition to the rules.

That said, we have successfully played FOW with 6mm and 10mm figures, simply switching the measurement to cm from inches. On a 6 x 4 table it actually makes a more interesting game with lots of maneuver room.

Rob

IMO… If you want to play 6mm, I'd go with BKC2. I have not seen *any* FOW players in my area playing 6mm. And if you ever wish to participate in a FOW tournament, you'll need 15mm. Plus you're more likely to find FOW players than BKC2 players at any local gaming establishment.

What I suggested a while ago to local FOW players (all 15mm) was to use their figs and play BKC2.

Go with 15mm and you can play either game!

If you base for FoW you could almost certainly use it for BKC; I'm not sure it would necessarily work the other way round. Having said that, I'm a BKC man myself…

Sort of surprised that BKC has been touted so far. Not that I like one over the other but I would have thought the FoW crowd would have jumped on in by now.

BKC is more about command and control and really gives you the feel of someone in charge. FOW differs in that you have to manage each stand individually, and don't entirely get a sense of cohesion. Had more fun with BKC but that's personal, as others said.

Did you read the OP kyoteblue?

Blitzkreig will give you a much better game and also allows you to have solo games with an element of the unknown built in which is impossible with FoW. As has been mentioned before BKC is also aimed at the use of smaller scales such as 10mm or 6mm although BKC can certainly be played with any scale. I've played both and BKC is streets ahead the better game and will be very familiar to a Warmaster player.

I would use Kampfgruppe Commander II. It is a much better game tha FOW and is scaled for 10mm.

acarhj wrote:

[…] I would have thought the FoW crowd would have jumped on in by now.

We have jumped on. It's a set of rules, not a religion. :)

Seriously though, I like both and will gladly play either given a chance. Getting stuck in a rut with games is no more fun than watching only the same TV show over and over. Or only eating the same food. Or dating… oh, wait.

Now that people are jumping in with the obligatory responses to use rules and scales that the OP didn't ask about, it's time to make the equally obligatory reference to the free rules available, including those at:

link

Not all are particularly play-worthy, but there are some good ones, and lots of ideas to be found.That's the beauty of historical games. You're never stuck with rules you don't like.

- Bob

Good point, Kyote. The Open Fire set saves you about $10 USD over the hardcover rule book. In these troubled economic times, that's important.

It's a smaller book, and does not cover engineering and some scenario-specific rules, but it's plenty to get started with.

You can give the included vehicles and dice to a nephew. :)

- Bob

Did you read the OP kyoteblue?

Did I miss something? I thought he answered the OP pretty well really…

He did miss something, the OP is playing in 6mm and Kyoteblue mentioned picking up Open Fire which includes 15mm mini's. Not that that is a bad thing, that is how I got into FoW, but I was already committed to 15mm so the vehicles were a bonus. For the OP the mini's aren't needed so if he goes the FoW route I would recommend the full rule book because it has a few rules left out of the little book and because my Open Fire rule book fell apart in less than a week and I had to spend money to get it spiral bound. Not a big deal, I prefer it that way, but just making the OP aware of that potential issue.

Now, having recently bought Blitzkreig Commander II, my personal recommendation would be to buy BKC and don't look back. I prefer the rules 100 percent over FoW. The only strength FoW has over BKC, IMO, is player base ie you can always find a fun game of FoW going on somewhere nearby. Production values are a push as the BKC II rule book is a thing of beauty and easily stands up to the FoW rule books. Other than that I think BKC II trounces FoW. It offers things I feel are lacking from FoW like command and control, battlefield friction, opportunity fire, off-board artillery (Over the Volga, I know) and scheduled fire missions. The rules are elegant, straight forward and very intuitive to me.

I play at the 1:1 scale (1 base = 1 squad or support weapon) with FoW based miniatures so I have the option to play FoW at the LGS, and BKC II solo or with friends.

Are you going to plsy with others? Even if you collect both sides, you may still want to play with other peo[ple. I understand this completely, as I have several periods where I own boths sides, but still play with others.

It doesnt matter how great a set of rules is, if nobody else wants to play then they are not that great for you. I like several other systems better than FoW, but that is the main game played for WWII around here, so that is what I collect and play. But when I can get someone else to do something different, the FoW basing seems to work out OK>.

acarjh wrote:

Did I miss something? I thought he answered the OP pretty well really…

You missed something. Read Buzzkill's post above.

Buzzkill wrote:

The only strength FoW has over BKC, IMO, is player base ie you can always find a fun game of FoW going on somewhere nearby.

An assertion that is made repeatedly and which may well be true in many places.

But it's not true everywhere. Round my part of the world it's much, much easier to find a game of Rapid Fire or BKC for example.

As kyoteblue said earlier, you need to go find out what other people are actually playing locally rather than making assumptions.

With no other players (currently) in your area, and the need to provide both sides, and, presumably, keep the costs down, I would also suggest BKC2.

It has everything in one book – rules, infantry and vehicle data covering your preferred theatre, and all the other theatres also, in case you want to expand later.

Good luck!

Buying BKC and being immediately ready to play with everything in one book is a huge economic plus. With FoW it's the main rule book and you have to have one of the not so cheap summpliments in order to play and if you have an interest in the whole war the number of suppliments goes through the roof. Plus BKC gives you the pacific and early war, not available from Battlefront.

I wish it was like that where I live Derek H, but it is all FoW, all the time here. I think it helps that you live closer to the point of origin of BKC and RF. I am fairly certain I am the only BKC II player in my area! My plan is to try and convert some of the FoW players at my LGS since they can use their FoW mini's, but I think it will be an uphill battle as they are all quite tournament focused.

I will openly say I greatly prefer FOW. My group tried booth. We started with BKC and were getting to many results that just didn't seem right, Stuarts taking out Tigers in north Africa, so we tried FOW. None of us play a tournament style we use FOW rules with WWII OB battles. We find the results more accurate then BKC. I will also add the caveat that we have not tried BKC II. From my understanding the changes between one and two are not huge and would not change the outcomes we game for. I would also add that the BKC rules are allot of fun to play and are easier to learn they just do not give the results you might expect.

Buzzkill wrote:

[…] My plan is to try and convert some of the FoW players at my LGS since they can use their FoW mini's, but I think it will be an uphill battle as they are all quite tournament focused.

I've often wondered if you could just transplant the command & control aspects of BKC over to FoW as an interim step. Keep everything the same, but require rolls to activate units using BKC's mechanisms.

If the group is so competitively focused, that may be a tough sell though. Do ask around though, as there are likely a few players mostly interested in the historical aspect. My current FoW gaming pal played WHFB for years, simply because he didn't connect with any historical players. He's a Napoleonics player at heart, but hasn't found a group for that yet.

Be sure to pitch it as an alternative, not an outright replacement. One isn't a threat to the other.

- Bob

The games are pitched at different levels, FOW is aimed at company command, BKC at battalion/brigade level actions. Having said that, you don't need a ton of kit to play either, particularly in 6mm.

I guess the main issue is the cost of getting the rules in Mexico, have you thought about free sets? If you want something commercial, then what grabs you, the tactics of an infantry or tank company or the formations and manouvres of a regiment? If the former then go for FOW, if the latter, then go for BKC.

Personally I find the sweep of the Eastern Front better catered for by big battles, so I'd go for BKC.

Thank you very much!
All comments and opinions are very helpfull.
I think I will go for BKC first but base my infantry units in such way that they can also be used with FOW; that way I can keep "opened doors" for both sets.

Sounds like a winner! Good luck with getting a group going.

- Bob

Just as I was about to post that there is no FoW here because none of the stores stock it, I just got an e-mail from my FLGS that he now stocks it.

We shall see what comes of it.

Never forget that BKC does not specify base size etc so FoW based mini's work just as well for BKC: two games for the price of one.

I too play both games. I based my 15mm WWII stuff for Flames of War and that works just fine for BKC as well.

If you've played Warmaster, you'll find BKC very familiar, as it's descended from that ruleset. The only bit that doesn't translate very well is way you have to leapfrog your commanders in front of your troops to avoid taking penalties when giving orders. It does feel a little weird to be sending your officers racing ahead of the troops in jeeps. Unlike in the Warhammer world, here on Earth we have these things called radios…

A big plus of BKC is that you get army lists for the whole war and all theaters, especially nice if you ever want to do early war or the Pacific. However, it's likely you'll be able to find cheap copies of Ost Front for Flames of War. This was the original mid-war book for the eastern front. A newer, hardback version called Eastern Front released this week, but the Ost Front lists are totally usable and I bet a lot of folks will sell their's on Ebay once they have upgraded. If you prefer late war, the same advice applies but look for Festung Europa.

Another plus in the Flames of War category is it has a nice little campaign system in Firestorm.

Is the US wargaming market so reliant on LFGS o wargame?

"I think I will go for BKC first but base my infantry units in such way that they can also be used with FOW; that way I can keep "opened doors" for both sets."

Yes go for it, I usually try and base my stuff in a 'rule independant' way.

If you base your stuff using BKC suggested base sizes you can probably play FOW with a reduced ground scale, or even just leave the ranges as is.

Main thing is that infantry bases in FOW represent half squads, wheras they are platoons in BKC, so just model half squads on the bases (riflemen + NCO on one, riflemen + LMG on the other, in general) but use them as platoons in BKC. Mortars, AT guns, MGs etc are based seperately in both.

The games are pitched at different levels, FOW is aimed at company command, BKC at battalion/brigade level actions.

BKC II can be played at either regiment/divisional level where each stand is a platoon or at the company/battalion level where each stand is a squad.

If you base your stuff using BKC suggested base sizes you can probably play FOW with a reduced ground scale, or even just leave the ranges as is.

There are no suggested base sizes in BKC II. I play with my 15mm FoW based figures using each infantry base as a squad instead of a half-squad. Everything else stays the same. A lot of people play in 6mm, if you go to the BKC website you can check out pictures and forum threads on how they based their armies. If you want to be able to play FoW with those same figures, you may want to base them to FoW conventions as they have a standard size where BKC II has no standard base size.

While its certainly true you *can* play the BKC/CWC/FWC series at lower than 1 stand = 1 platoon scale, the question is whether the rules are really suited to it. The emphasis in the 'war commander' series, as others have noted above, is on command and control. The vehicle and weapon stats are not differentiated to the extent they are in many other rulesets, and the game usually revolves around successful command rolls at crucial times. There is nothing wrong with that, if it floats your boat. But, I'd suggest it lends itself more to the higher levels of command, rather than the nuts & bolts of 1:1 combat between individual tanks and guns. As Martin Rapier suggests, BKC is better equipped to handle big battles where the law of averages means the individual differences between bits of kit are less important than the command and control abilities of those directing companies and battalions.

Buzzkill,

I wish you luck of converting those FOW players since as you stated it will be a very big uphill fight.

Just because most of them will not want to build a force that is not their normal uberlist.

For the OP you will need to determine if you want to play World War II game or a game that allows you to roll lots & lots of d6's.

If you like the latter then FOW is what you are looking for.

If you don't care about color pictures and glossy paper, you can get BKCII at "LULU" at the address below.
Its a print on demand site (they print and ship).
I had my copy in about a week and am very happy with the services. The advantage is that the rule are only $19.94 USD and with shipping (USA)they were less that $24. USD
Its legit, I found the original link on the BKC web site.

link

Thats a good tip thomalley, I may get a "working copy" so that my original copy does get beat up when I play, but are you sure that is BKC II? It doesn't indicate that on lulu and the pictured book has the green cover of BKC I, not the grey of II.

I think the real question is which level of game you want to play, then buy rules from that decision.

Flames of war is written as a game of commanding a company or a short battalion for the most part (call it not-to-exceed 12 platoons on the table, and most people do better with about 8 platoons), where one model represents one individual.

The XYZ Commander games are written as commanding the entire regiment, so you have 9-12 companies plus divisional support pretty much by definition.

So, do you want to be the Hauptman in charge of the company (or the Major in charge of the Battalion for the russians), or a Colonel?

For 1942-43, Battlefront has just released a new Eastern Front book. Total cost for book and a mini-rulebook from the Open Fire set is going to be about $65. USD Eastern Front has Germans, Finns, Hungarians, Rumanians, Italians, and Russians, in several different company organizations (or battalion organizations, if you're talking Italians or Russians). If you want to play a snapshot of Kursk or Stalingrad, that's a good book to have.

For 1944-45, though, you're in a different boat. All that has been released on the eastern front is a 3-book set for Operation Bagration and the basic Fortress Europe book.

I'm not entirely a fan of the Warmaster engine, so I can't comment effectively on the utility of the Blitzkrieg Commander book.

I'm not sure. It copyright 2009.
I sent an email to the BK home web site to find out.
I asked for the ISBN, so I'll let you know when they answer.

jms

"XYZ" Commander (specifically BKC II) can be played at either level, one stand equals a platoon, or one stand equals a squad (or fire team if you choose, I know of some who play this way). There are minor tweaks if you play at the squad level that are detailed in the rule book (ranges, static hits, individual commanders instead of command units, etc.) but both are playable from the same rulebook as well as army lists for all theatres and combatants. Some feel that the command and control focus of "XYZ" commander is more suited to the larger scale, I disagree, I think C&C is just as important at the pointy end of the spear, its just Capt's, Lt's and Sgt's making the calls instead of Majors and Colonel.

Martin Rapier and Collins355 make valid points that the unit stats are "abstracted" to some degree. Armored units in BKC have an armor save stat as opposed to 3 armor ratings as in FoW (front/side/top). Flank and rear shots are accounted for in BKC by the firing unit gaining an advantage to inflict damage. Don't take this to mean that units are all vanilla in BKC II, far from it. Panthers. Tigers and PZ IV's all have different stats and are very individual vehicles in BKC.

Also, in BKC units are not killed if a hit is scored, they have a certain number of hits they can absorb before being knocked out. I like this over FoW because you can have damaged units as opposed to dead or not dead. This makes a big strategic difference as you may have to decide if a unit is too banged up to be effective and pull resources from elsewhere.

Also, BKC II contains "44 army lists for 19 nations covering 15 theatres of war". If you want to play early war or pacific, you can right out of the box. There are no other supplements to buy. It is all right there for about $32 USD bucks plus shipping.

It is all going to boil down to personal preference and what kind of game experience you are looking for. BKC II does it for me, for others in may be FoW and thats OK. The universe will not implode if different people like different games. I am speaking from the perspective of someone who owns and has played both games and in my personal opinion, BKC II is the far superior game.

thomalley, I asked on the BKC forum and Pete, the game designer, responded that it is the original version, not BKC II. Not sure if there are any plans to put BKC II on Lulu.

I've always enjoyed BKC, so I was in the pre order list for BKC II. Lots of fun to play, some very interesting situations come up due to the way command runs, and they are easy to use.

FOW is at a much lower level of command. It seems to work well and please those who use those rules. Its not my cup of tea mostly because I prefer games with command and scope at a higher level.

thomalley, BKC II is now on Lulu. I may pick up a copy just to preserve my original book.

I just got a email yesterday from Pete and he said it might be some time before BKCII was on LULU.
I'll just have to wait till someone else in my group buys it.
Can't afford BKCII having just bought BCK1 2 weeks ago.

jms

Pete posted on the BKC forums that it is up on Lulu right now. No need to wait. link

Ah, but I already spent the money on BKCI.