"Royal Scots Greys in the AWI" Topic

Anyone ever heard a story about the Light Troop of the Royal Scots Greys serving in New York City during the AWI? Most likely would have been 1779 or later, if true.

No primary account has ever been found to support this, but – like the two colours supposedly carried in America by the Foot Guards – the anecdote keeps surfacing.

No--As far as I know the only regular cavalry to serve were the two light dragoon regiments…Likewise the Guards would not have carried colours as they were converged battalions…

SM

Did the dragoon regts have light troops at this point? Certainly it was the case early in the SYW but I was under the impression the light troops had been removed from dragoon regts when the light dragoon units were formed in 1759.

TM,

Yes, I thought they had gone by the AWI as well (if not in 1759, then certainly in 1766 when there was that brief renumbering fiasco).

Arch,

The manner of the creation of the Combined Brigade would not on its own have precluded the carrying of colours (similar detachments drawn from several battalions had gone to Europe in the WAS and SYW and I believe these units had colours). However, I believe there is an entry in Ensign Glyn's journal that refers to his promotion, and remaining in his company "there being no colours" (might be faulty quote as I don't have a copy).

Apparently there was a re-enactment group based on the RSG "light troop" running around in the late 90s (and possibly later) in the US, but nobody could ever tie them down.

Yes, there was such a reenactment group in the late 90s. They were citing some RSG buttons having been dug up at a site in NYC. I'm not sure where the idea of a light troop existing came from. PErsonally, I think it far more likely that those buttons got there via a few dragoons DRAFTED from the RSG to the 16th or 17th LD to fill them out to deploy to America. Remember, a soldier OWNED his clothing and took it with him when drafted from one corps to another.

As for the Guards' colors, there is a set belonging to a company of the SCots Guards that tradition holds were carried in America. Can't say much one way or the other about the truth of that. They could have carried them. After all, every company in the Guards had its own color. I suppose one of the Captains (or even field-grade officers) in the Brigade who had already had a company just might carry along the colors with him. I'd have to look up just how many such officers there were. A lot of the Captains for the Brigade in America were freshly promoted.

If you get Don Troianis excellent book, "Military Buttons in the American Revolution", there were many buttons found of units who were never even in N. America at the time. ?Some may have been from staff members just tagging along,or drafts from other regiments who were sent over.

As for the Guards colors,they NEVER left England. They were the Households premier infantry units,and they didn't want to risk any royal standards in America. I know that Flags for the Lads makes a set for them,as do another company,they were never used. I have both converged bn.s in my Southern Army,and they do NOT carry colors for that reason.

Bob

Malbrook,

The drafting sounds a more plausible explanation – if the draftees went to the 16th, they could possibly have kept their own uniforms as both had blue facings. Apparently there was a miniature/portrait sold on e-Bay some years back that had the correct distinctions for the RSG and was listed as having some American provenance.

The colours allegedly carried in America were, IIRC, held in a Scottish museum – company colour and major's from the 3rd Guards. But I agree with 95thRegt(Bob) that it is unlikely – and in any case, many regiments who did have their colours never took them into the field.

Malbrook,

The drafting sounds a more plausible explanation – if the draftees went to the 16th, they could possibly have kept their own uniforms as both had blue facings. Apparently there was a miniature/portrait sold on e-Bay some years back that had the correct distinctions for the RSG and was listed as having some American provenance.

The colours allegedly carried in America were, IIRC, held in a Scottish museum (Stirling?) and were a company colour and major's, both from the 3rd Guards. But I agree with 95thRegt(Bob) that it is unlikely – and in any case, many regiments who did have their colours never took them into the field.

Or if a Scots Greys officer wanted to see some action he could have volunteered and gone over for a bit of action…If a few of these Ruperts got together they could have been mistaken for a company????

I too think that with limited hard data Malbrook's 'drafts' policy makes the most sense.

The rationale that "they didn't want to risk any royal standards in America" assumes that there was fear that the British would lose in America. It also begs the question of why did they fear America in particular? Would they demur to carry standards in, say, Flanders? Spain? Portugal? Hanover? Sicily? India? You do not send troops anywhere fearing they will lose their standards.

If you want to say that each company sent drafts to the composite battalions, and the standards therefore stayed in Britain with the parent companies, then that makes more sense.

BTW, MY Guards carry Colours. When I painted them, I had a reference. So, I used it. Hey, pal… I ain't ditching no hand painted (by ME!) standards on the whim of some fancy pants "scholar"!

Back in the Bicentennial I served in the 8th Regiment of Foot – the Kings – which spent the war out holding the Great Lakes garrisons. (Living in Illinois – the 8th got as close as Vincennes, Indiana.)
When I visited Fort Miffilin on the Delaware outside Philadelphia back in 1776 – the curator of the museum here – on hearing that I was a reenacter with the 8th Foot- showed me a button dug upon that site for the 8th Foot. Never did figure out how it got there – as the 8th had gone to Quebec before the war started – and never left till after it was over. But they had one found on site.

Captured coat – detached member – draft from overseas misdirected – hard to say. But as mentioned coats were property of the soldiers – and traveled with the.

I know little about AWI uniforms, but I would be very surprised if the "Scots Greys" wore buttons with RSG on. They were designated the "2nd Royal North British Dragoons" at this time. Royal Scots Greys was still an unoficial designation just as it allways had been.

I think the button found had "2D" rather than "RSG".

The 17th LD accepted over 50 drafts from various regiments prior to leaving Ireland (including some from the 16th); no corresponding documentation for the 16th unfortunately.

Some interesting comments on colours:

link

Allen

One last random thought – was the button found for small clothes or from the regimental coat? The dragoon coat and light dragoon jacket are different enough in cut that one would not convert one into the other – other one would not bother changing the buttons on small clothes – breeches and waistcoat – especially last years clothing which would be kept for fatigue duties and such

Can't comment on the mystery button (good quesiton about it being large or small though), but since the Guards were all converged companies to begin with, and also I believe there was a strict roation policy about the officers coming and going on a schedule – it made no sense to select any one set of colours.

Also, the British army knew fighting in North American quite well, and units actually carrying colours in the field/battle are not well documented anyway. There is no record of the colour companies ever being formed for their protection, which has led many to wonder if they were carried in the field. I dunno, but it is a good question.

Also, the British army knew fighting in North American quite well, and units actually carrying colours in the field/battle are not well documented anyway. There is no record of the colour companies ever being formed for their protection, which has led many to wonder if they were carried in the field. I dunno, but it is a good question.
>>
We would assume they were carried at least SOME of the time! The 7th lost theirs in 75 in Canada,then again at Cowpens,the 17th lost theirs at Stony Point in 79,and didn't get a new stand of colors till well after the War ended.

Bob

That is true, units did lose colours, and perhaps they did carry them with them some of the time (whatever that might mean), but it is also possible they were kept with the baggage, which was captured as well. The records are unclear on much of this type of detail. And it also goes back to the part about lacking a colour party to guard them too.

If you have any additional info on this please share.

The first loss by the 7th was at the capture of Fort Chambly during the invasion of Canada. Did they actually have a second set at Cowpens?

Interesting that the 17th didn't lose theirs at Princeton first.

There are numerous accounts of "colours" being captured that turn out to be camp colours or similar, rather than regimental flags.

<<When I visited Fort Miffilin on the Delaware outside Philadelphia back in 1776 – the curator of the museum here – on hearing that I was a reenacter with the 8th Foot- showed me a button dug upon that site for the 8th Foot. Never did figure out how it got there – as the 8th had gone to Quebec before the war started – and never left till after it was over.>>

There may be a more interesting explanation for this one: in early 1777, the 4th Continental Light Dragoons were issued captured coats of the 8th and 21st Foot, taken by privateers from a mechantman en route to America. These were still being worn in early 1778, so would certainly have lasted through the Philadelphia campaign.

Of course, if you really did visit in 1776, then the fact that an 8th Foot button was around then really would be a mystery……..

For British colours, see:
62ndregiment.org/colours.htm

Spring also covers the topic in his ZEAL (pp. 155-57):
link

Going back to the earlier posts- the Scots Greys did indeed form another light troop in 1776, initially 48 troopers raised to 84 the next year.
In 1778 though, this troop was taken away from the regiment to form a cadre for the short lived 21st Light Dragoons, disbanded in 1783. I think a number of other heavy regiments reformed light troops around this time- including the 3rd King's Own Dragoons.

I wonder then if draftees from the Greys light troop to the 16th or 17th in 1776-7 are the explanation for the story and button.

seneffe,

Just had that confirmed by the RSG museum; light troop included six sergeants and six corporals. The 21st also included personnel from the 7th, 15th, and 16th – though who the last-named would have provided is an interesting point, having left all their R&F in America.

The 21st was commanded by an RSG officer, Lt Col Douglas (who became the new regiment's colonel), and became operational in 1779, patrolling the Yorkshire coast around Whitby, to combat smugglers and American raiders.

I've often wondered about the uniforms of the Light troops formed at this period- I've never seen any illustrations or descriptions.
In the SYW the Greys Light Troop wore a small cap like a much reduced version of the main regiment's mitre- I wonder if the AWI troop wore a smaller version of the fur cap the regiment adopted after the 1768 regulations? I wonder if anyone wore this headgear in America???

seneffe,

Strachan has illustrations of the 12th, 22nd and 23rd, and a 1784 sergeant of LD in Tarleton and red coat (looks like white facings); he also shows an officer of the 10th prior to 1779, holding an odd-looking head-dress that could be a cocked hat, or may possibly be something more interesting. There is a further Fitzgerald watercolour of the 12th, not in Straachan, showing mounted and dismounted officers in hats, not helmets.

Apparently, three regiments of LD were formed from light troops of other regiments, mostly "heavies", in 1778/1779 – 19th (green facings), 20th (yellow) and 21st (blue) – all had silver lace; the next two regiments raised both had green jackets, presumably because they were new troops. Interesting that the 21st – a non-Royal regiment – had blue facings; this may have been because three of the four "feeder" corps had this colour.

As regards caps, there's no mention of different headgear in Strachan. However, the Greys seemed to have surpassed even the tardiest infantry regiment in adopting fur – an inspection return of May 1777 reports:

"Grenadier caps old. The men are to be supplied with bearskin caps at next clothing, and the officers are to be provided with bearskins likewise."

Another inspection, from October 1779, mentions "caps with black bearskin FRONTS [my emphasis] handsomely embroidered and ornamented" suggesting that the mitre style had still been retained to some extent.

Very interesting. I remember that Inspection return now you mention it- though not where I saw it. I wonder if the first bearskinned caps were just the old mitres with a front covering of fur- I think some of the foot regts who adopted fur caps before the 1768 regs did this.

That was the impression I got.

(All the reports cited are in Strachan under 2nd Dragoons.)