"Tumbling Dice 1/72 Scale Mongols?" Topic

Hi, does anyone have pictures of Tumbling Dice's 1/72 scale Mongols? (or even better size comparisons with plastic 1/72 figures) I'm especially interested in the Mongol infantry and Korean auxilliaries. Any information would be appreciated. Thank you.

Hi Greg,
I can't speak for the Mongols, but I have some of the Tumbling Dice Normans and early 13th century knights in Helms. They are very nice sculpts, well cast. They are however a bit bulkier than I remember the average 1/72 scale plastic figures, which I remember as being slimmer.

The Tumbling Dice would make an attractive army used exclusively, but I'm thinking the sculpting style is diferent than the plastics.
Best wishes,
Tony

gregmita, someone on Benno's site posted these painted TD mongols which show them off nicely:

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I have a whole bunch of TD Yuan troops and early samurai crying out for a lick of paint, myself…

Mike

Thank you very much! These look very nice, and I thought the "Korean" auxiliaries might be straight from the Mongol invasion scrolls.

My intention was to see if these could be used for Chinese foot troops from around this era, as Jin, or even Song or the earlier Liao troops. There is a dearth of Chinese troops from this era in the 20mm / 1/72 scale, so I have to improvise. It looks like it should fit, especially for Jin. The big wicker pavises don't look right though, but that's where conversion comes in.

It doesn't look like bulk will be a problem, since I'll be using only metals for foot, and plastic for cavalry.

Thanks again!

That's a good idea! Italeri have just released 1/72 plastic Chinese cavalry of around that time (Song Dynasty?), but no infantry – Tumbling Dice figures may be just the thing for completing a DBA army.

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I bought a number of these a few years ago for a 1/72 DBA Mongol army, to be used along with the Italeri figures. They are a bit chunkier than the plastics, but around the same height. Heads and helmets are somewhat 'broader'than the plastics. The TD Mongols are great figures, but come in a multi part form with seperate heads, weopans, scabbards, bow cases, and in some cases, arms. This allows for good variation, but I found the figures took a long time to put together. Joins and holes sometimes needed considerable filing/drilling to get them to work. However, if you are not put off by the time needed to construct them, they do look very good when finished.

I've got about 20 unpainted TD cavalry which I'm thinking of selling.

I always thought that some of the Zvezda 1/72 plastic Mongol infantry in their mixed set looked rather 'chinese' in style. The heavy cavalry in this set look like Ilkhanids or even Mamelukes, but the infantry could fulfil a number of 'steppe type' uses.

Yes, the multiparts are a bit tricky – the samurai are even worse with separate arm plates, quivers, weapons, heads etc. – but make for better anatomical poses and detail. It also means the pavises and round shields can be left off as desired.

I was also looking for some Sung type foot troops and even thought the Orion Boxers might have some conversion potential!

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I have some of the Italeri cavalry. That's what got me into this period and area in the first place! :) The cavalry can be used for any of the dynasties (Liao, Jin, Song) but a couple of figures (especially the one based on the Osprey drawing) really scream "Song" to me.

As to Song infantry, I keep thinking all the available figures in other scales (like the Essex for example) look more like Ming than Song troops. I mean the whole look with the wide-brimmed hat and no armour. In the Wu Jing Zong Yao for example they do have foot soldiers' armour. In fact you don't see many unarmoured soldiers other than the swimmers with flotation devices. Some sort of lamellar armour seems more fitting.

Durruti
I converted some Orion Boxers into Song Infantry a using a pyrogravure (heated metal spike thing) and some putty. Took a bit of time, but the results were quite good.

I love those Italeri Chinese cav and agree they seem to cover a wider period than just the 13th Century, especially those with full horse armour. One figure is clearly based on an Osprey illustration of a 8th-9th Century Tang imperial guard. (MAA 295 Plate C).

Would be fantastic if the set gets lots of sales and Italeri are encouraged to following up with infantry or even a "crouching tiger" catapult! Perhaps Italeri are struggling with their research as to what Sung/Song infantry looked like – I know I have. The relevant Ospreys show several unarmoured foot troops (MAA295, Plate F and MMA251, Plate B) including one ex-Sung in Yuan service with the brimmed hat.

The Chinese History Forum has had some interesting discussions on the subject with mention of both paper and "buren" iron lamellar as well as unarmoured. All suggesting there were distinct classes of heavy (including guard), medium and light infantry used by the Sung, Yuan and other dynasties:

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Perhaps Caesar's Ch'in dynasty set might have conversion possibilities for later heavy infantry?
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Or Redbox 16th C Koreans (not great sculps, I know)
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More illustrations of Chinese troops from various dynasties:
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Hobhood3, darn it I've been trying to get hold of a pyrogravure but Historex don't seem to do them any more. Any idea if I can still get one somewhere? Otherwise it's the old needle-stuck-in-a-wooden-handle-over-a-candle-flame for me ;)

Looks like we're thinking along the same lines…

Hey, I have that book, "Ancient Chinese Armour" by Liu Yonghua. It has great analysis as well as a good list of primary sources, along with Osprey-style colour plates. There certainly were unarmoured infantry (often dressed in a style similar to ordinary peasants/workmen) from the Song, but the wide-brimmed hat look is found far more often in Ming military manuals, the "Wu Bei Zhi" for example. Song dynasty manuals like the "Wu Jing Zong Yao" show a lot more armour. Unarmoured Song infantrymen were also more likely to wear soft caps, like MAA251 B1 or B2, than the wide-brimmed type. Wide-brimmed hats that have been found through archeology during this time period are from Yuan tombs.

The Osprey MAA295 Plate F infantryman is *weird*. The clothes seem to be the right style, but the colour and pattern seem to be for a kid's costume! I think this might be because they copied the picture from the ceramic pillow on page 20. To me, that seems to clearly show kids playing with toy weapons, especially with their kids' hairstyles. But the Osprey book says it depicts "infantry combat." It's also not clear if the shield the figure holds is really an infantryman's shield. Shields of that shape are in the "Wu Jing Zong Yao," but it's not clear if they are more like pavises or foot soldiers' shields.

The Caesar Qin troops will need a lot of conversion for this era. Their hairstyle and head gear are archaic, along with many of their weapons, the ge for example. The armour's lammellae also are too big – because they're leather rather than metal.

I really do hope Italeri makes a Song infantry box set, but I suspect even if there is one it'll be a few years before it comes out.

The Red box set has potential, but like you say, the quality is pretty poor.

Excellent, thanks for the info, gregmita, I'm interested in learning more. You know, I can't look at the guy in Plate F without thinking of Aladdin or the like. :)

I'd be interested in what you think of these drawings from the Encyclopedia of Chinese Arms and Armour which the captions (thanks to Babelfish) claim are based on the Wu Jing Zong Yao (aka Wu Ching Tsung Yao)and archeology:

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They're in various levels of armour and a couple have what look like brimmed helmets rather than soft hats.

This picture of a seige engine from the Wu Jing Zong Yao shows armoured infantry with similar looking headgear:

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I found these pictures of Chinese crossbowmen although I don't know what era:
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Probably Ming? The rest of site seems to deal a lot with the Sung but that doesn't necessarily mean anything:
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This is a nice article I found on the Sung army with some carvings of heavy infantry wearing fancy winged helmets:

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To be honest my interest really started because I wanted some "Hsin-fu" Chinese for the 2nd Yuan invasion of Japan so I might be safe with the brimmed hats as in the infantrymen in the Yuan plates of the Liu Yonghua book and Osprey? However my curiosity in the other Chinese dynasties has been piqued although I'm very much a beginner.

Pyrogravures that are meant for wood-burning ought to work.

Durruti, I actually looked through some plates of the Wu Jing Zong Yao again, as well as "Ancient Chinese Armour." It looks like I was wrong before. The WJZY does show soldiers in wide-brimmed hats, though they always wear armour. I keep (wrongly) associating the hats with "unarmoured." In fact, Liu Yonghua does also say that the Song common soldiers didn't wear helmets, but only wore hats. I have no idea what his source is for that claim though, especially since the WJZY shows helmets among the "footman's armour."

Thanks for the Encyclopedia drawings. Those are very nice. It is indeed hard to tell if some of the headgear from the WJZY are soft hats or wide-brimmed helmets. That's one of the problems of looking at old woodcuts. I see the Encyclopedia drawings also have the shield from Osprey Plate F, but they have it more pavise sized, but still used by the individual soldier.

I've seen the Washington education department site and PDF that you've linked there. That's actually a nice source (aimed at supplemental material for teachers) but the caveat is that they mix pictures from actual manuals (mainly Wu Jing Zong Yao and Wu Bei Zhi (Ming dynasty)) and illustrations from novels. They're good about telling you the source though. Some of their interpretations are strange: for example, there's one picture in the Siege section where they say it's an army below a city wall getting bombarded by items dropped from the top. But it's actually an illustration of the guy on the left casting a spell and calling down a dragon (can be seen in the picture) dropping a rainstorm and hail on his enemies.

Hmm… so it looks like head-swaps might work – some hat heads on lamellar bodies. That should get the look of some of the Wu Jing Zong Yao figures.

Incidentally, if you are near a university with a good Asian studies library, they'll probably have a copy of the Wu Jing Zong Yao. Or more likely, a collection type book that includes the WJZY as one part of it. I have no idea how you can get "Ancient Chinese Armour" these days though, but that is a good source that has something on *every* dynasty.

Thanks for your help.