"What is up with Black Tree Miniatures?" Topic

I posted this on another BTD thread but it's worth posting here for those not reading every BTD thread:

If you're in the UK contact Consumer Direct ( consumerdirect.gov.uk ) or via telephone on 08454 040506

Currently it's just me as a consumer complaining about BTD, so the more people that contact them about BTD the more it raises the profile of BTD's actions with Consumer Direct to the point where they themselves will take direct action against BTD. So, don't just sit here whining, contact Consumer Direct!

The whole process took five minutes and the bloke I spoke to was very friendly and also a wargamer!

To get a refund send a recorded delivery letter, requesting the order is cancelled and that you want a refund. Sending an email is not enough for this.

Once they have received that letter they then have 30 days( ! ) to refund you the money. If they fail to do that then you'll have to take them through the small claims court.

However, if BTD have sent you part of your order you only have seven days to return the items ( recorded delivery ) otherwise you cannot claim your refund. I didn't discuss this process further as I've not received anything.

I'm assuming that BTD hope that most people won't bother to do drag them through the courts so it's free money for them.

I've not had a chance to contact my CC company yet but that's the next thing to do tonight.

Whilst it's easy to say that the Editor is not responsible for the actions of advertisors I personally feel that displaying adverts for a company that is actively ripping people off is perhaps not in the best interests of this site and has me questioning how many other advertisers here I cannot trust.

thank you very much. its a shame i cannot claim this (not a UK resident…)
i guess there is very little oversea customers can realistically do. or is there something?

@hwarang – I very much doubt there is anything legal that can be done.

Consumer Direct offer advice for UK residents with foreign orders but I'd imagine that their powers are actually very limited. I expect that even if you have a similar organisation to Consumer Direct in the country of your residence I suspect their powers over UK companies will be limited to non-existant.

All I can suggest for non-UK residents is to harass BTD daily unless others can offer any other advice.

Update – after threatening legal action, ONE of the things I ordered from BTD has arrived, with a note saying the rest is to follow. My email demanding my orders be cancelled has been unanswered, possibly unread. Sigh. I just want my money back now. Why won't they answer their emails? how hard can it be to just say "sorry, I'm too busy on Xbox live to send out your minis" or something. This silence is infuriating.

Thanks for taking the time to write that up BugStomper, I intend to follow your excellent advice

Update #2: Their phone line appears to be back up again, but their voice mail box is full. Quel surprise.

I've just got home and believe it or not my entire order, about 100 figures, has turned up!

Here's hoping that others here will get their orders in the next few days.

I've also contacted Consumer Direct and withdrawn my complaint because my complaint was a failure to deliver the goods and they've managed, very slowely, to do that.

Would I use BTD again? Although the figures are very nice and the casting is good, I'm still leaning towards "no" because I'm not entirely convinced that I'll be so lucky a second time. It's a shame because I *really* like the figures that've turned up.

I also apologise about my statement of "I'm assuming that BTD hope that most people won't bother to do drag them through the courts so it's free money for them.". Sorry for suggesting that.

Oh the irony

As I type this a BTD banner sits at the top of the page :-)

Congrats Bugstomper.

I feel like Charlie Sheen in Platoon watching King lift off in the Huey.

Mikasa fingers crossed your order is winging its way through the postal service as I type this! :)

BugStomper,

You got very lucky. I would not make a new order based on pure luck. Ever since I found TMP I have seen possibly 300 posts of negative feedback against BTD, I have experienced their "delivery system" – wait 6 months and maybe get what you ordered. I would sell my left kidney if suddenly BTD will ship orders to everyone making people join hands and sing praise.

To me the whole company smells like a well run con, living off peoples hopes as they deliver a small percentage to make an appearance of actually still being a functional company. If they wouldn't deliver anything at all everyone would be 100% convinced they are a scam, but now however they seem to have a lottery where every 100th customer gets his order within a month, 49 customers within 6 months and the remaining 50 customers are driven insane and give up on their order. I was one of those customers who had to wait 6 months and bombard them with email every week.

The best thing would be for TMP to remove those stupid BTD banners, let's be realistic – BTD run a constant "SALE" , what normal company would do such a thing year in and year out? I would encourage you guys living in UK to keep filing those complaints and if possible try other legal means to make them close down. Is there some sort of inspection you could send there?

About a year ago at least the owner still showed his face on TMP and had thin explanations as to why everything was delayed and such. Now they are just stonewalling, this is not a professional company by any means. There were slight hopes of them straightening out their business after the relocation last time but I see that did not help at all.
It's pathetic and sad at the same time. I can tell you guys that if BTD would be located in Sweden I would be at their doorstep and demanding a very good explanation, my money back or my models right away- or send the police after them. The whole thing is just insane. Stop throwing your cash away at them!

This makes me wonder: Isn't there some law against running year-long "Sales"?

I actually don't know. Just curious.

In Sweden there is, you can't have a sale that runs longer than a month IIRC – and the authorities are pretty quick to fine stores that break this simple rule.

For those of us in the UK owed money and figures.

Credit card claims.. For those who do not know, it is quite possible to claim the funds back if you paid via credit card.
Ring your credit card company (Number is on your monthly statement). Ask to be put through to "Retail Disputes" department. They will take the details and issue you a payment reclaim form.

Fill out the form, attach all relavent copies of emails etc and post back.

This system works, because to take a payment via an internet account other than paypal, BTD must have a merchant account. That account is handled by a 3rd part holding fund/company. If you have paid and not recieved any good, you can claim your full amount back. If you have only recieved part of those goods you can claim only for those you have not recieved.

But the money is claimed from the payment processor not BTD. This processor company, then intern claim the money back from BTD, usualy via some hefty legal types.

Yes consumer direct and trading standards are all good and also worth putting complaints into in the case of the former, and requesting an investigation with the latter too as options go.

And if your claim is also for several hundres of pounds the UK small claims procedure (what people commonly call the small claims court) can be used too. It is not where near as scary as some people think to do. So if your owed a lot of moneys worth by BTD, then this is the stick to hit them with. They also can be charged for your time off work etc to attend the court, so a few hundred pounds of figures, might costs BTD a lot more to resolve.

The Citizens Advice Buerau (CABS) has a free guide to how it all works.

I suspect though, if people start to claim their payments back via their credit card companies, the chance exists that BTD will soon loose their merchant account, as their payment processor will not be happy, if they start recieving regular charge backs. Which will hit them very hard indeed. Then they might just start to take notice that people are not happy and that their behavior is less than acceptable as a trading company.

demanding a payback via your CC company is good, but in germany there usually is some sort of fee that the CC owner has to pay himself. in my case that would be more than the order i placed (order was about 30 pound, CC payback claim fee is about 40 pound).
is that the usual way of things world wide, or are german regulations just being very customer un-friendly? (they usually are)

Update #3: I have no less than 3 emails from John Olsen in my inbox now, telling me there will be a 2 week delay on the out of stock minis but the rest are ready to go and do I still want them sent out?

Why they couldn't have just sent that in the first place is beyond me. Work all night if you have to John, but sending out emails to me is more important than sending out the minis if there's a delay.

I have neither, cash, e-mails or figures.
Maybe I need to smile more?

Bugstomper and Authorised. What's the status of your orders on the BTD website?
Thanks

"Queued"

No idea as I can't remember my login details and the password reminder link doesn't seem to want to work (i.e. it's not accepting the email address I used).

did you send a threatening letter to them Mikasa? That seems to have triggered this whole flurry of activity on my end.

No, my communication with them has all been fairly measured.
You suggest taking my safety off?

Authorised

Can you share the e-mail addy please?

Thanks
M

john AT blacktreedesign.com is the one I used, I also sent a mail to every department in the "contact us" section of the website. I threatened legal action if no communications were entered into within 10 business days.

What irks me is that once the email gets going, John is very cordial. Just makes me wonder why he doesn't just send a blanket email out if he needs to saying "sorry about the delay".

I stayed composed during the email exchange. I genuinely believe it's just one guy running that place, and he has more than he knows how to cope with (and maybe suffers from depression due to having to make the terrible choice between saving a bus full of innocent children, family members among them and saving the only woman he's ever loved, but that's my imagination).

Also be aware that the emails were received last night at 8PM GMT (while I was out watching Rammstein live at the NEC arena), so be prepared to wait until evening. Keep trying the phone line, leave messages if you can.

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Thanks mate

Will do

Update #4: I have a further email from John Olsen saying he is going to harrass the mail order department and will send me a further email still in the days to come.

I just got an email from John saying he finally got my models and that they were going out in the mail today.

Update #5: received a box from BTD this morning containing most of my order, with a note saying the rest were "to follow". Still no email from John however, still unable to get through to anyone on the phone. Some of the minis shipped were packed in pretty tight, so there was a fair amount of halberd straightening and some repair work to be done.

Still an absolute dearth of communications from BTD which disappoints me. I'll let you know when I get the rest of my order. I'm travelling to cornwall next week to visit my grandmother, maybe I'll pay a visit to the BTD address while I'm there.

i am not getting my order (4 monts nearly now..) and they are not answering my emails.

DO NOT BUY FROM BTD.

received an email today, telling me my stuff was shipped… i will post here again, if i receive it.

i actually really received the order today. and only one piece is missing. and they promised to send that.

after 4 months.

terrible service, but at least not a rip-off.

Orders still not fulfilled from November, no replies to gentle prodding, so will have to go down the consumer legal and credit card reimbursement routes.

As someone before said on here:'The only people who want Black Tree to fail seem to be Black Tree themselves'

Please just sell the moulds to someone who has successfully organised drunken nights in breweries and is now moving on to pouring alloy into moulds, putting the resultant figures into a jiffy bag and then placing it in a post box.

:O(

they told me they had problems with their boar moulds. so if anyone else is waitin for boar riders, that problem is solved now apparentliy and they should ship… (.. i *guess*)

I placed an order on the 6th of February (this year before you ask) for a Guards of Gallifrey set and it arrived complete today, 13 working days for delivery

I'm happy with their service!

Still waiting..

I got one of their periodic e mail advertising updates today and see that this has been added to the web page. I'm still waiting for 6 packs, – ordered august 09, bulk arrived Dec 09. To my mind I suppose its at least some sort of acknowledgment of the problem and suggests that they aren't dishonest (just hopeless at despatching orders!)

quote from the web/email page: -
Gremlins and Bugs

We are busy at work trying to catch up from the massive Holiday rush coupled with a bad spate of employee illnesses. We fell way behind and are doing all we can to rectify the situation. If you still have a problem or a delayed order, please contact me and I will do everything I can. You can phone me on (806) 731-0202 and 01752 547654 in the UK. I am in chilly Amarillo so please allow for the time difference. You may also email me at john@blacktreedesign.com and put "John, I'm still waiting" in the subject line.

A further update: More minis arrived today. I am just waiting on two more items now, and have been promised they'll be "in the post this week" (that was on 16th Feb).so currently I'm looking at 2 months turnaround which I guess makes me a lucky one. Incidentally I'm heading to cornwall tomorrow to visit my Grandmother, maybe I'll stop in at BTD's place there and see what's up.

I received the same promotional email and duly sent my "John, I'm still waiting" email… that was a few days ago, and I am still waiting for a response, let alone my order :-(

Recently ordered from BTD and got worried as I found this thread AFTER and not BEFORE I'd placed the order.

I'm happy to say that I've now successfully placed and recieved two orders within the last six weeks, and both orders were delivered within a week of placing them.

Whatever problems BTD have had in the past, I'm hopeful they've been sorted out now.

I would order from them again, the figures are great. I guess people only tend to post about their experiences online when those experiences are bad.

Ordered my items on 11/3/11 and was sent an email stating the order was being processed. I sent a follow up inquiry on 11/27/11. Received email response on 11/29 stating that my order had been "completed successfully and the miniatures have been sent".
Maybe a more detailed message other than "processed" at the start giving a time frame would have been better, but as the order was a few hundred bucks, I can't complain on the time frame.
Well see if the entire order is correct when it arrives.

Received my order on 12/2/11 and was only missing 4 packs of LMG's. It included 2 packs of freebies (8figs/28mm). Overall, I am okay with BTD and will order again as the figs are very nice.

Received my missing 4 packs of LMG. Overall, I'm very pleased with everything. I will definitely order more from BTD.

My parents had this same problem. Took months to get their product.

Both times I ordered though, I had it in less than a week. but I'm far from impressed with the Daleks I bought from them. They take so much work to clean up, I haven't been able to finish all 17 figures I've got from them and it's been over 6 months now. I just don't have the time or energy to put that much work into each figure for the most part. But my god do they look awesome after a good paint job.

I will say, if mine and my family's case is any indication. their service quality depends on the time of year. The colder it gets, the worse their service seems to be! Order during the late spring to mid-summer and see what results you get. Though, would also like to say…neither of my orders were over $40. My parents' order was over $80. So, amount of product involved my have to do with their service quality as well. The don't seem to have issues filling small orders in a timely manner, but absolutely panic and fail over larger orders.

I think all their weekly sales on various ranges really helps though! That's big incentive for me to order from them. Now if they just had anything I want except for Daleks and maybe some figures of the various Doctors and companions later on if I care enough to get them.

I rather nervously ordered a few packs of their Zulu Wars figures, just as a test.

Received the order, complete, within 10 days, having received several accurate progress report emails.

Hopefully they're putting their poor service issues behind them as they are nice figures.

(I'm in the UK, in case it matters)

Things seem to definitely be looking up for these guys. I ordered something about 10 days ago IIRC and the order came in full today.