"Intermixing Russian Shakos" Topic

I know that the 'kiwer' style shako was introduced in 1812 but did not make it to all of the field units in the Russian army until sometime in 1814 in some cases.

I guess this question is for people who know more about reinforcement & resupply practices of the Russian army of the period. For those units that still had the pre-1812 shako, would new troops from the depot have the newer headgear?

I'm looking at building a few 1812-14 Russian units and was thinking it would add some variety to the units to have some units in the old shakos with a smattering of the newer models to represent depot reinforcements. Would this be a plausible depiction?

Thanks in advance,

Bart

Probably not. The pattern seems to be that units all get the new headgear/kit at about the same time. So the reinforcements might very likely have traveled with the new headgear if you get my meaning…

In 15mm, there is actually one of these rare bird sets--Russians in the pre-1812 shako with the modern backpack. Minifigs made such a set, and I have a copy.

In 28mm, I don't know. Sounds like that would be a matter of head swaps – very expensive, twice in fact.

Good luck.

Highly unlikely.

I believe the Russians were very fussy with appearance and uniforms so very doubtful.

could well be, in 1812 some converted Jäger regiments still had white equipment belts.

I would have an hunch that the troops wore what they had until it wore out and a mix of shakos was possible. No real evidence for it but the massive Russian army would have taken a lot of supplying, regardless of how fussy thier commanders might have been.

I think bruntonboy is half right. But replacement almost always seems to have been done by unit. So if the belts wore out the entire unit got new ones. Same for new headgear. Once a unit;s were unfit the entire unit would swap them out all at once. The idea that Ivan would get a new shako and Piotr not is what I think would not happen…

Elite miniatures have 28mm Russians in pre kiwer shakos for 1812-14. Most likely many units wore the older shako with added cords in 1812. I would go with whole units and perhaps officers in he new kiwer.

One has to remember that kiver was not the only piece of headgear soldier had- at LEAST the peakless hat was owned by everybody. Kiver was for parades and actual fighting…
If you read Viskovatov or Zvegintzov you can see the schedule of changes in uniform sent down from ministry AFTER the High Rescript came from Czar. Obviously first the changes were applied to guard, then SPB district, followed by Moscow, etc. After main army had uniform changed, came garrison regiments etc. Yes it is possible that in same "Inspection"- later "District" at some point some regiments had new shakos, others did not. But mixup in same regiment- highly unlikely.

Dear Sergeis
I would have expected a mix in equipment with the new recruits in the new uniform. The supply system in the Russian Army was not brilliant but had improved greatly under Arakcheev and Barclay de Tolly.

Remember that after Borodino, the third rank of infantry regiments were filled by Opolchenie. Many of these lacked muskets. The Russian Army had 26 different muskets. See Summerfield (2007) The Brazen Cross, Partizan Press.

It is interesting documenting the inconsistencies through contemporary illustrations such a Suhr.

Stephen

To be honest I seriously doubt if any army had their soldiers in regulation uniform and equipment across a full regiment during a time of transition to new patterns and indeed later.

If you consider men away from the unit as detachments or garrisons, returning from sick or punishment etc..and the drafting in of militia or loanees from other units as well as the wear and tear and resulting loss I would expect all sorts of variations to be seen.

Of course perfect uniformity is what was the ideal and that is what we usually see in pictures and indeed it tends to be exactly how my regiments are equipped- even my Swedes who should indisputably be a scruffy bunch.

He is very opinionated, but Ilya Ulyanov says that model 1812 kivers were issued for the 1812 campaign to the Guard, the units in St-Peterburg & Finland and the 1st and 3rd (field) battalions of the units in Lithuania, and to the new 27th Division (but for this last, without brass chinstraps – using leather instead, jäger style).

Русская пехота в бою
Ульянов Илья Эристович
Москва: Эксмо, 2008
eksmo.ru
ISBN 978-5-699-29768-9

The issue of recruits is mostly moot – the large call-ups for the 2nd (replacement) and 4th (reserve) battalions arrived from the drafts of 1811 for the campaign of 1812 year – and these were equipped before the new kiver was decreed.

As Dr. Summerfield noted, the opolchenie provided most of the replacements acquired "new" in 1812 year. They were not much "dressed" at all (but usually given a gray outfit similar to what recruits received in the regions, before processing at the depots). Headgear would be various forms of the forage cap, usually gray. The Parkhaev cards give some examples of the variations. Some units re-uniformed in the field as well as they could.

The draft of 1812 did not arrive to the the front in Germany in large numbers until after the armistace in 1813. By the resumption of hostilities, many units would have received new uniforms, including kivers. Before being re-supplied, 1813 "uniforms" would be largely notional with the army in the field – forage caps predominating.

Based on icongraphy and surviving museum examples, Pavel Alekhine (in Сержант № 38) shows the method for making up (in the units) the kiver cords (этишкете). A little different from Viskovatov, but really convincing when seen in life. Pompons also. His work appears to confirm the resutls of two prior Soviet-era mongraphs, but the Alekhine article is more readily available.

So, for larger minis, you really need to cut the head off a later Russian (preserving his backpack, etc.), add a head with model 1808 shako, then re-make the cords and pompons.

Ugh ! I have units of the 27th Division myself.

As v. Winterfeldt mentions, white belts are noted for some of the recently converted jäger regiments (34th through 46th Jägers from 19.x.1810, and the Лейб-Гвардии Финляндский полк from 11.xi.1811). But, I do not have the details at hand.

Please do not ask about lowered/closed collars of the habits and/or greatcoats. It is too messy, just too messy.

Dr. Summerfield makes a good point about the various weapons in use, but the model 1808 musket was getting to be increasingly the standard infantry weapon. Also, the variations were not as important as in other armies. For the Russians, the logistics theory was to provide the units with lead and powder. Moulds were used locally to make up the bullets, the powder graded, re-ground, etc. Weapon replacement parts were also made locally. Each regiment (of 12 companies) had an armorer (коновал), master gunsmith (ложенной мастер) and 12 apprentice gunsmiths – as well as 6 blacksmiths and 12 woodworkers. This was typical of the Russian logistics "philosphy" – push the logistics/support capabilities as deeply down to the units as possible.

Chuvak

P.S. – After this research was made known in the last few years, many re-enactment units decided to ditch their model 1812 kivers for model 1808 shakos. Perfect repro kivers could be had for $75 USD or so in both Moscow and St-Petersburg.

Great information everyone. Thanks much for your replies.

@ Summerfield- it is a miracle of a Blessed Virgin that they won, isn't it? Or did they?…

Уважаемый Сергей!

Не только победа – они разрушили Grand Armée, почти каждый человек.
Так, … возможно не идиоты?

- Чувак

A rather "easy" conversion is to find producers who do 1813 Prussians with shako without cover, they are useless for the Prussian army in the field but would provide quite good Russians for 1812 and 1813

Dear Sergeis
As Chuvak puts it. "The Russians were not only victorious but almost destroyed Grand Armee to a man."

The Grand Armee was in a far more fractured state than the Russian Army both had suffered greatly in the winter of 1812. The difficulty as ever that the supply lines for the Russians were getting longer and the those for the French shortened.

I must say that my 15mm Russians are in Kiwi shakos as that was all the options were at the time. Certainly interesting considerations.

Stephen

@ Chuvak and Stephen- I was trying to be sarcastic here…
Шутка!

Dear Sergeis
Alas sarcasm is difficult to detect in the written word. Well I learn.

Stephen

Some general observations: the delayed change in Austrian Army headgear is a well known case, but it was a deliberate choice by the Treasury to wait for the old helmets to wear out before issuing shakos. French regiments tended to be pretty independent, and Napoleon issued lots of orders. The Prussians scrimped and saved. But in Russia the Tsar sent orders to the regiments and generally things were done by local craftsmen. Sometimes the orders confirmed existing practise and sometimes they had to be re-emphasized. I'm not sure if the scuttle-shaped shakos were supplied, or were constructed locally. So, I'd be wary of using hunches or analogy to argue the schedule.

Ulyanov's list seems to cover everyone except the Danube Army, the 3d Army of Observation, and a handful of auxiliary corps. Usually it's assumed the Danube Army would not have had the new shakos.

What is the reference for white belting for the new Jaegers? I'm surprised by this, as the conversions were ordered in the fall of 1810, and blackening belts would presumbably be fairly easy. Getting the proper green lined coats would be more of a problem (and not always done).

I've seen the reference to "26" calibers of muskets kicked around from time to time, but I've never found the source. Anyone know where it originates?

NSN

@NSN- on "26" calibers- gotta be some Brit that dug that out of his belly button with some lint… Wilson?- too bad convoy cossacks did not skewer him for those gold epaulets!

It is not easy to blacken that kind of white leather which was specialy made so that it was generaly white and very durable, more so than blackened brown leather.

Also white leather was more easy to keep clean with pipe clay while black leather was difficult to keep the shine, with black wax and polishing wood.

Nev,

26 calibers is based on:

Ôåäîðîâ. Âîîðóæåíèå ðóññêîé àðìèè çà XIX ñòîëåòèå – ñ àòëàñîì ÷åðòåæåé ðàçëè÷íûõ îáðàçöîâ ðó÷íîãî îãíåñòðåëüíàãî îðóæèÿ, áûâøèõ íà âîîðóæåíèè ðóññêîé àðìèè. 1911.

Fedorov. Vooruzhenie russkoi armii za XIX ctoletie – …. 1911.

See page 11.

Text only can be downloaded from the RGB Web site:

PDF link

My original copy (including atlas) is not with me.

"But in Russia the Tsar sent orders to the regiments and generally things were done by local craftsmen."

Илья Эристович says (page 44 of the "Реглярная Пехота 1801-1855") "yes" – locally made – for the new kivers, except the chinscales which were to be centrally provided, and did not get delivered as planned. FWIW – he really does not document his source material very well unless you press him personally – as they do quite often on various Russian fora.
:-)

He also shows the uniform of the Лейб-Гвардии Финляндский батальон vers 1811 in blck belts – I wonder if the Finns were alwways considered "light troops" from the time the Императорский милиции батальон was taken into the Guard in 1808?

I don't seem to have the Federov scans on this computer nor the viewer needed at the link. Can someone who can see the original report that Fedorov quotes confirm that the date was 1805-1807 era – i.e. a "reason for" the Arakcheev reforms as opposed to a "result of" them?

Interesting "stuff".

Chuvak

Chuy,

The RGB site seems to be down right now.

Big Al

My memory is not totally gone.

Indeed, the information on the great variety of calibres of Russian infantry weapons before 1809 and the partial sucees by 1812 in standarizing on the model 1808 musket is treated in some detail by Federov on pages 19-21 of :

генерал-майор (1943) инженерно-технической службы Фёдоров Владимир Григорьевич
Еволюция стрелкового оружия – часть 1
Москва: Государственное военное издательство наркомата обороны, 1938

His source for 26 calibres of infantry musket is ….
"О калибрахб состоящих на вооружении в полках 1808 и 1809 годов"
Архив Историч. Арт. музея, д. инспекторские 1808 г., св. 63, № 1109.

Also, for what it's worth ….
Some, including myself, have wondered about the fate of the few thousand Brown Bess British muskets sold to the Russians and their use (if any) in 1812-1815. Idling looking for Ulyanov's sources while testing my zippy new 4G wireless internet service*, I found him on a Russian re-enactment forum, without any sources mentioned, claiming that the 20th and 21st Jâgers were generally issued with these, and not the model 1808 Russian musket.
Shrug.

Chuvak

* [Off-topic] Brought to Mosow, St-Pb and soon truly obscure regional locations by the Russian company Yota and their American sub-contractors, this 4G mobile internet connection is just a wonder. Perfect broadband at 15MB/sec or better while stuck in Russian traffic. I think I will just move my office into a "command car" and forget ever actually getting to work at all.

"Åâîëþöèÿ ñòðåëêîâîãî îðóæèÿ" Just a rehash of older works by general Vladimir Grigor'evich Fedorov (1874–1966), for the greater glory of the Soviet State. <;^}

A reprint of vol 1, with an introduction by Werner Hahlweg, was produced as Volume 13 of the series "Bibliotheca rerum militarium" by Biblio-Verlag in 1970. 512 pages.

For a short bio, in Russian, with portrait see:

worldweapon.info/fedorov

Big Al

Hey, at least I found the rehash on this hard-dive, and could therefore more correctly isolate the time frame for the "26 calibres".
And I hope you are not attempting to tarnich the glory, even soviet glory – we all know how unsettling tarniching can be.
:-)

It is interesting that no one remembered to purge our dear Fedorov, either in 1918-1922 or in the 1930's. I am sure he kept the typical "small suitcase" pre-packed in case he was to be taken into custody, as so many did in those years.

Russian wiki for a little more of his bio:
link

Chuvak

Chuy,

I think uncle Joe liked Fedorov's mustache! He must have been doing something right – he made each cut over a long period of time.

Do you suggest that I might be one of those "cowards" that "tarnich the Glory"? I can't believe it! <;^}

Have you been able to enter the RGB web site?

Big Al

Dear Fellow-Tarnicher,

I can get on the site OK from a Russian server, not from a USA server.

But, I get this instead of the nice .pdf :
Документ находится в ограниченном доступе.
Доступ к документу предоставляется в соответствии со
статьей 1274 IV Части Гражданского Кодекса Российский Федерации.
В полном объеме текст документа доступен в Читальных залах РГБ.
Для открытия документа и просмотра десяти процентов страниц
установите на компьютере программное обеспечение Defview.

This Defview is not available for Mac and released only as a beta for Linux and would not seem to operate on the specific *nix partition I have on this computer. I left off tryiing at that point, I must confess, as we are only promised 10 pages.

Perhaps the Russian state library learned a few "tricks" from Google about geo-location of the users/visitors. I have seen this "Foreignes not invited" before on the "Russian internet", but never before on a government sponsored site.

Also could be that they under-provisioed their servers and their huge, beautiful .pdf's were just causing too much traffic. Easy to have happen if up to 50% of the project budget was actually not, ahem, ever finding its way into the, ahem, project.

Chuvak

(Steve, you never cease to amaze!)

Zweguintzow has the Imperial Militia with black leather, and I assume it comes from Viskovatov…

Dear Nvrsatnvr
Yes this comes from Viskovatov of the 1806-07 Imperial Militia. These were reproduced in

Summerfield (2007) The Brazen Cross: Russian militia, partizan and Russo German Legion of the Napoleonic Wars, Partizan Press.

Stephen

RGB Web site seems to be back in order. But cannot access the Fedorov work – which was previously downloadable – as I have a copy.

Big Al

As in all militaries and all wars what the guys were in the field is not up to date regulation. Unfortunately for this particular level of interest in the hobby artist representations of soldiers are not 100% accurate and unlike in the American Civil War photography was not invented to capture troops in the field.

So anything they wore is just conjuncture and right to a certain extent.

Fedorov document may be downloaded here
books.reenactor.ru/?bookid=923

unless I have got it wrong
(still in Russian)
rabbit

Russian Colonels were in charge of their regiment's procurement. They purchased items locally for the most part, so obtaining enough of one thing for the entire Pulk was dependent on the locality. Usually the locale was the training camp for more than one Pulk, so a small industry of serving these units existed. However, after 1812, most units were so decimated that new items were required by the battalionful, and sick and wounded were not able to travel. Therefore, except for a few hundred effectives new uniforms would have to have been provided for everyone. Take a look as the strengths of Russian front line units in early 1813. So when the regiment was ready to march to the front, carrying a wagonful of extra sets of equipment was easy. Having a unit in mixed uniforms would not be expected.