"Local Gaming Stores - and a reality check" Topic

The I-kore debacle got me thinking. Not so much what happened to the company itself, but the tangential arguments that have been developing about ebay sales destroying mom & pop gaming stores.

My question is, what does blame mean in this context? Surely it has to be obvious that internet sales are changing the world, and that gaming will change right along with it.

Are we supposed to artificially support mom & pop businesses, when they are made unprofitable by new technologies? Ultimately, that is flushing money down the commode.

Don't get me wrong, I cut my teeth on gaming in a mom & pop store, and I feel somewhat nostalgic about seeing them go, but what is the alternative? People will simply not spend more for less.

Besides, it seems to me that, done properly, a new game or miniatures company should be able to come into being far easier, quicker, and with less capital outlay because of the existence of ebay. For a cheap internet connection, you have the global markt at your door, and ebay's commission schedule is far less than the mark up of wholesaler and retailer.

Note that I don't say this would be EASY, only EASIER. Creating a small business is always a hassle, and making it survive even moreso, but here at least, is an opportunity to get a good, well made product out instantly to the gaming community.

Fair enough, but where are you going to game? Where are the terrain tables, the painting nights, tourneys and competitions? Are you going to start a local league and rent out a space with tables/terrain? That's more money you need to spend. Are you going to meet in a friends garage, a basement... OK, but how will you get new folks?
I'm curious.

Is it so hard for mom and pop to develope a web presence and grow right along with the rest of us?
it is their loss if they cant/wont adapt.
free markets are brutal and chock full of darwinian casualties.

I could argue that this misses the point that you can't stand in the way of the inevitable march of history, but it really is a reasonable question, so I'll speculate.

I think that certain coffee houses will become something of a gamer's haven, and may even sell dice and similar stuff as a sideline. I am from a university town, and this seems to be the way gaming is going around here.

Oh, my. You're on to something there. A couple years ago, I spent weekdays in San Diego going to massage school (weekends back at home) for over a year. I rented an apartment across the street from the school, upstairs from a thriving indy coffee house. Their "spare room" on the ground floor, as big as the coffee house itself was used one or two nights a week for performances, but most of the week it was unused. What a great place it would have been to play games and attract players. D'oh!

Allen

Gaming stores will always be around as long as they provide a value to the gamers. Need a place to play? Want to find other gamers that share your interests? Need that bottle of paint NOW? Want someone to show you how to ink, dip, or shade a figure? These are just a few things your gaming store provides.

If all you want is product cheap, don't mind waiting, don't mind hassling with potentially damaged or mispacked items then order all you want online. Hopefully you can meet other gamers online as well. Maybe one of them actually has a nice place to play where their spouse and kids won't be interupting every 10 minutes.

As for developing a web prescence I don't see much more need for the gaming store other than providing the basic info of where you are, when you are open, what you carry, and when your events are held. You are either a game store selling in person or an internet reseller. Mixing the two is asking for trouble. I'm not saying you can't do both but realistically you can't do both WELL. The past few years bear that out as many brick and mortars tried to sell online and got their butts kicked or companies that sold online tried to establish storefronts and quickly found out that is not the core competency of their company.

I know several game shop owners and in spite of all the internet sales they are thriving. The internet has maybe hurt some of their product sales but it has also created HUGE product awareness. If you doubt me ask yourself why you look at TMP all the time. This awareness drives customers to the places that carry the products. If you are a local store out of touch with what your customers want you will not get the sale. Bring in some inventory, bring in some customers. It's that simple. I know, I lived it for many years.

I am not a game store owner so my comments are not biased in any way. I try to save money just like the next guy. My comments are based on a number of years managing niche retail environments with several million in sales, selling hundreds of millions of dollars face to face with Corporate America, and consulting with Fortune 500 companies for a number of years to help them understand the hazards and potentials of an e-commerce strategy for their products and services.

As many of the silverbacks in this group have said in the past we are in an unprecedented zenith when it comes to the offering of figures and games as compared to 10, 20, or even 30 years ago. Considering that internet sales and selling has been going on for at most 10 years (probably more like 7-8) that growth came from somewhere.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Ok, so you design a set of rules, sculpt some awesome figures, print up some books and spin a few hundred castings. You place your ads on ebay, TMP, spam some Yahoo groups and wait. And hopefully you cast the figures out of something edible because
a) if the price of entry is low you'll be competing with 100's of other guys who did the same thing.
b) Junior can't blow $10 of allowance on your product when s&h is $6.
c) No one will want to buy figures they haven't seen, touched, and compared to other lines.

Now granted, most of the time I go into a FLGS I am not overwhelmed by the customer service, inventory, or atmosphere, but that's why most of them fail. But using the internet to eliminate the middle man doesn't always make sense.

Rich

You're right. There is really no way a brick and mortar store can compete with an online store. The online store does not have to worry about paying rent, in many cases, they don't need employees, business hours. As a result, they really don't have the expenses of a brick and mortar business.

So why would someone choose to purchase items from a brick and mortar store? I can suggest several reasons:

1. You can look at the items before you purchase them.

2. Most of the brick and mortar stores have space to game in and will sponsor clubs, demos tournaments and the like.

3. You don't have to worry about receiving the products. I have been stung by online outfits more than once who will happily take my money but never deliver the goods. I have lost a lot more money to New Wave than to my local gaming store.

4. There are no shipping expenses or minimum orders. Now, the online retailers have not been required to collect sales tax -- yet. So this may be a wash. But online, you may pay $1.00 for a figure and %5.00 to ship it.

There is nothing to prevent a gamer from looking at the stuff at his local gamestore, purchasing it online, and then playing with it at the gamestore. He can pat himself on the back and say, "What a smart boy am I!" Of course the same gamer has nothing to complain about when his local game store goes out of business, or starts charging for using their space.

Of course, there is no reason for a manufacturer to sell to an online store. They can run their own e-business or mail order operation just as well. (Witness GW.) Many manufacturers will not give a seller a markdown until the seller can show that he actually has a brick and mortar store. (They are not required to give a discount to anyone.) So the question may boil down to one of do you buy from GW online, or from your local gaming store.

The bottom line is price isn't everything -- you get what you pay for.

Haven't lived near a FLGS since '85. Haven't lived near a *responsive", competently-run FLGS... ever!

Those that do should consider themselves lucky. Others have to learn to do without.

Allen

My nearest FLGS that carries more than ONE companies miniatures is 2 hours and an international border away from me. I don't make it there very often but when I do I try to drop some money. It is my chance to see stuff I wouldn't even hear about on the net.

I have bought books from them that I could have got cheaper from Amazon, just to help keep them open.

There is a lot to be said for being able to leaf through rules your are thinking of buying, or look at how big a figure really is.

My closest is ninety minutes away when traffic is good, two hours when it's not. Lots of GW, lots of roleplay materials, a handful of DBA army packs.

Next closest, Brookhurst, at two hours and often hideous traffic at the best times of day. Add a few minutes, and there are two more well-known LA-area stores. None close enough to really just pop down and game for the evening.

Impulse buying, sure. I do it. But I don't recall being surprised by anything new I didn't already know about from here or other Web sites, at least not for many years. Apart from the closest, whose owner has the acumen to turn over stuff that doesn't sell, I now view the rest mainly as places to go occasionally to locate OOP stock amongst the dusty and disorganized shelves...

Fortunately, a formerly mostly RC car and plane store only 75 minutes away has recently been building its miniatures stock, and that's close enough to consider going down and playing/running games. So there's hope.

Allen

Doctor X:

It's not a question of what SHOULD happen, but what IS IN FACT HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. As I said, I miss the loss of mom and pop stores, but whatcha gonna do? There was a glut in this market back in the late '80s, and no one had even heard of online shopping then.

I would wager that, in another 20 years, mom and pop gaming stores will be virtually non-existent, and you'll end up buying your GW figs (GW will have absorbed everybody else by then) at Walmart, if you buy them locally at all.

Brave new world...

Several years ago I owned a game shop. It lasted for quite a while. I can speak from experience...online sales butchered me. Why didn't I sell online? Because I had to pay the rent, the bills, the employees, buy new chairs when they broke, ink for printing fliers, posters, prizes, etc. The online store needs a place to store a box and that's all. No way I could sell for that cheap and stay open. Oh, look, I closed in 2000. Wonder why that was? When the online buyers would arrive at my shop for game night or tourny Saturday to win my prizes and play on my tables against my loyal customers...I should have told them get out. You don't buy here, you don't play here. Think that's bad? Try bringing a McDonalds bag into Wendy's. Some things just aren't done. Rant ended.

Warwick

Warwick, That sounds exactly like what happened to the FLGS near my house. The players were all buying from online sources, and playing in the store tourneys etc. I refused to buy online as I felt responsible for the success of my favorite store. Now that it closed down, I must drive 30 to 45 minutes just to buy paint and glue. Players must support the mom and pop places or they will all be gone.

I think FLGS can survive. Ottawa probably has the most per-capita. Including modeling shops there are 14 hobby stores I can think of off the top of my head. This is for a population of 1,200,000. It can be done.

I think the biggest thing is to get a web presence. I'm not talking about selling online, I'm talking about being online so people know about you. Maybe put a listing of what can be special ordered. Not everyone has a credit card, or wants to use it online.

Zarquon's points are why I prefer to buy from a shop in person.

Plus I like talking to the store owners. Most of them are great people.

Hi General - Good gaming stores that offer gamers what they want and need will be here 20 years from now. Bank on it.

Let's use the computer industry as an example. If I follow your thinking Dell would be the only computer company still in business because they sell online and are inexpensive?

Yet I can go into any big box consumer elctronic store and see every brand but Dell. On top of that there are still hundreds of white box computer manufacturers out there. These are the local/regional guys making "generic" computers. Why aren't the customers who go to those stores buying the Dells online? Why are the big boxes selling a ton of systens? Incidentally these white boxes have a larger market share than Dell does. The reason? They fill a need that ordering online can not.

By the way, Dell tried setting up stores and kiosks. They are an incredible failure and most if not all have or will be closing according to Dell.

As to the failings of local game stores my personal opinion is that most of them are run by hobbyists and gung-ho gamers who have the most noble of intentions but are not businessmen. They don't know their market, customers, how to advertize, how to manage inventory, or what an income statement is. God Bless them for trying but they are not cut out as businessmen.

There is one FLGS around here where I went in to buy some Chaos Black paint. There was none on the rack, so I browsed. When the owner could tear himself away from his computer game, I asked when he would be getting more paint in. "Maybe next week." He also commented that they must have at least 5 bottles of Chaos Black on the back table where they paint their own figures.

Another friend told me that he waited a half hour to buy $120 of figures while the "worker" finished his 40K game.

Sound business plan?

My FLGS is actually a mom & pop (now bro & sis) toy store that happens to carry wargames and some mini products (mostly GW & WK, but they also stock 1/72 plastics in large quantities). They offer no gaming space whatsoever. I buy from them because:

1. They have something unusual in stock that catches my eye.

2. The difference between their price + tax and internet price + shipping is frequently neglible.

3. They sometimes offer decent clearance prices ($28.80 for G.E.V. boxed set, $32 for LotR:TTT boxed set).

4. I like the owners and am always treated well.

5. I enjoy the experience of physically holding an object before purchase.

6. I am wary of internet purchases from entities/sites which I do not know or whose security procedures are suspect.

7. I can walk to the store in about 10 minutes or less, if I choose.

There are other stores in my city; one is primarily a comics/used books/music store that I frequented in my college days. They carry some Reaper & WK stuff, plus an interesting array of used products. They're about 20 min. away, driving, but it's a pain to find parking, the place is cramped, and they also do not have playing space. I go only if I happen to be in the area, and rarely buy. But again, gaming is not their mainstay.

The third store is also about 20 min. away, but traffic to get there is always horrendous. They're the only pure historical shop I know of, with OG, Essex, etc., and they do have a game room. I've been three times, but never purchased-- one time I went intending to purchase, but there was no one in the store! I could have walked off with anything I wanted, were I so inclined. Ridiculous. I have no idea if they're still open (and they never answer the phone, so I can't tell without going by, which is a pointless hassle).

The fourth FLGS is about an hour away in a somewhat run-down shopping center. I've been once, and purchased some paint & clearanced Warmaster figs. They have play space (according to their web site-- It was either in a back room I couldn't see, or was a rather cramped table surrounded by shelves which seemed to me more of display and over-flow merchandise space than viable gaming table). A good supply of odd games, some used games, a mix of GW, Reaper & other fantasy/sci-fi but no historicals, plus WK stuff. Very ample painting supplies, as I recall. The space was cramped, and it's just too far away and out of my way for me to visit regularly. I can't imagine actually attempting to play a game there.

The last place I know of is a GW store in a huge mall. Like all GW stores it is well lit, spacious (for a game store), and has ample play space. The employees have generally been friendly and respectful when I've been there (maybe three times?). But again, it's nearly an hour away, traffic to get there is horrible (and dangerous), the stock is always full price and limited to GW of course, and the mall is very noisy (making the store somewhat noisy as well). Again, I can't imagine going there to play a game, and I'll buy my GW products on e-bay or clearance elsewhere if I can.

So, if my FLG&TS offered playing space, would I use it? I might. Would that increase the likelihood that I would buy from them? Yes, it would. (Or rather, it might increase the frequency).

What about the other stores? What would increase the likelihood of purchases there? Well, for the comics place, wider new stock. For the historicals store, actually being there when I am would help :P. For the way-out store: new location in a nicer center, better lighting, less cramped space, dump the non-gaming/non-toy related junk. For the GW store, lower prices (since they're not gonna expand into non-GW stock).

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Run a clean place, well lit, good location (i.e., where I won't worry about a mugging in the parking lot, or a drive-by at the local liquor store), friendly, helpful staff, good stock, occasional sales, quick service and you'll get my business and that of others. Skimp on any of this, and forget it.

In the UK this has already happened AND it happened before the expansion in web sales. The growth of the mail order supplier killed it off.

There never were very many shops selling figures (well not historicals anyway) and mostly they were run by hobbyists rather than businessmen. Once the RPG marked saw its inevitable downturn here many went out of business, there wasn't enough profit in historicals and similar stuff. Other modelling shops stock a few items (e.g. plastic kits & figures, paint & terrain building stuff - mostly aimed at the model railway market).

The idea of a shop that has the kind of services that posters from the US describe was always fairly rare over here and we have just learned to live with it.

Gamers tend to form clubs, hire their own premises and use membership and table fees to pay the expenses. Many do game at one another's homes (often in quite impressive games rooms) and that is the way I have gamed for the last 15 years or so. Local pubs are also a popular venue (for obvious reasons). The local club network is pretty strong in the UK, something that may well be difficult in the US, Canada & Australia with the distances involved.

The idea of travelling for two hours to get to the nearest shop would be a joke over here - with that time allowance I could go to a show about once a month and have 20+ traders to deal with, clearly not an option in other parts of the world.

While the 'net is clearly a big threat to local shops I tend to agree with the poster that says they will survive where they are giving people what they want. They may need to work more closely with their customers and even consider charging them a membership or table fee to game on their premises, this may not be an attractive proposition in the short term but most sensible gamers will surely be able to see the long term advantages.

Tony H

As a child in Kings Heath in Birmingham (UK) I knew of two shops on my way home from school who stocked Hinchliffe figures. One a newsagant and the other a very small model shop - room enough for two people to stand in it.

I never cared about the economics of it at the time but I would spend hours in the model shop browsing - then every fourth or fifth visit invest in perhaps three of four figures - spending probably 50 pence.

If I wantd to buy a lot I would usually mail order - becauase the shop rarely had everything I needed in stock. It doesn't make for a comfortable way to earn a living, but of course it made a significant contribution to drawing me deeper into this hobby - after all not every ten year old is going to discover wargames mags - they want to see and touch.

The newsagent changed hands - the owner of the model shop retired. I'm hooked on historicals - but there are few little shops left to grab the next generation.

have you ever seen GW investors report ?
here you have some noticiable points on on-line sales .
less than 10% of the GW sales are made this way .
And they didn't want to increase this part . They need to have the kids in their shops, and make them true "GW cultists" .
Mom&Pop stores are destroyed, not by e-bay sales, but because Mom & Pop are too old and have no more passion .
You can earn some money whith this business, if you can be a man whith passion, AND a great manager , just like peoples in the GW stores . The difference between you and the GW staff is that you are not a kind of silly robot ... You are a Man .
Too difficult for me to say more in english ....

Uchronies - very well said.

For once I have not read all the musings above so I will limimt my remarks to this; it seems that the internet has breathed a breath of new life into our hobby (of toys - as I call them) and has allowed opportunity for many miniatures companies to come into being and stay at the unintended expense of the "mom&pop/brick&mortar" shop.

Ya, that's a good point Ndb. A lot of times the local store doesn't carry what I want or need - they always chipperly offer to order it but I could do that myself and skip the sales tax.

Also because rents on the building itself are high enough and margins are low enough an incredible amount of money has to be made to cover all that. So this means they are often in tiny frontages; they don't have room to carry every thing in a line so they only carry the newest stuff and never become a real resource for a particular line. GW at least requires a full backlist which is great. Until the army is bought - then what?

Also, I know of a place in California that only does customer orders or restock orders ONCE A MONTH. It's just too costly for them to nickel and dime in orders every couple of days. [They must be closed by now - I can't imagine that strategy working anymore]

But for historicals that is a big problem. And I was always frustrated by the out of stock situations of the locals.

But even for the online vendors, I HATE waiting - I have no patience for it whatsoever. I get super antsy after a week if I ordered it in the US. It's hard to concieve that things would take 2 weeks or over - but that happens all the time!!

I live in NYC which has NO historical shops at all, I hate waiting, and I also like to see what I'm buying so three times a year I go to the big HMGS con and get 4 months supply. And I consider myself extremely lucky to have that.

But for a store to really make money they have to diversify to the extent that they have the space and a broad enough selection of stuff to ensure a sufficiently wide customer base. They need to be all over the "Figure range of the week", get the new stuff and be able to suck up the losses when the new become old and sits there in mountainous piles (like WOTC Chainmail). Sell coffee, RPG games, video games, comics, whatever.

There's a decent place here called Neutral Ground that does CCGs, online PC games, rpg's; they have a microwave, sell Hot Pockets, ice cream, candy, soda. For minis they carry all the "hot" lines: Confrontation, Reaper, Warmachine and seem to be doing well.

I lost interest in editing this so I apologize. Not sorry enough to fix it though .... :D

While online sales are doing a good job of taking away profits from FLGS, someone brought up the point of where are people going to play these games.

Let me take that one step further...

My FLGS has an ample back room for hosting gaming events. The owner charges $5 per event regardless of the game system. He also sells pop and munchies at the store at $.50 cents a shot. So in an average weekend....

Yu-Gi-Oh CCG, 20 people at $5= $100
Magic:The Gathering, 8 people at $5= $40
Heroclix, 4 at $5= $20
Mechwarrior, 6 at $5= $30
Grand total for an average weekend of events= $190
One pop per person= $19
Not to mention that each person attending the events usually buys some other product related to a game system they play.

My advice to FLGSes, if you have the room to host gaming events, open it up and start charging. To quote a cheezy, yet pretty good movie, "If you build it, they will come." ;)

Passion is essential - you go back. It's not passion that kills firms but competition.

Also - let's face it: we are a niche market and an increasingly aged one. The above examples of different products are not fully acceptable.

Computers - they go wrong and if they do, i want it mended. Having been pigged off by a mail-order firm (I pay for their defective item to be returned!!), I am planning my next purchase from a local firm who will hold my hand as I make mistakes.

Railways - I'm deeply into this as well and 2mm fine-scale is not one thing you find in stores. However I do use one wel-established shop as it has hard-to-find items here and I can browse.It survives on going to exhibitions and on the toy-trade.

Plastic kits - local firm is wonderful and does well in mail-order. Also you are sure of getting that new kit that others haven't.

However I have noted many of the last two shutting - exhibitions hurt railway shops and mail-order the plastic kits.

As we say here in the UK - Use your local model shop or lose it.

apologies for mistyping

pejota,

Did I get this right? You say that it's worthwhile for the owner to keep the store open for the entire weekend for $190 in sales?

Maybe if he doesn't have any hired staff and doesn't mind spending his own weekends in the store...

What's the minimum wage? How much does it cost to have one minimum wage clerk at the store, per day? I'm genuinely interested.

Its getting harder and harder for me to buy at a B&M. Unless you want GW dont expect to find the figures you want. The Reaper rack is picked over by the time you get there. They dont stock Confrontation or any of the more obscure brands. The service is often questionable.

I do go to 2 B&M stores. One has a great staff and a decent selection of stuff. The other has primarily GW products but the owner is always willing to special order anything he can, without fail. And they are all nice people.

I find, though that I am forced to go to the internet for any historicals, anything other than GW and anything I need right away.

Sure there are a few bad internet stores as mentioned above, but I have found plenty that are excellent, offer a discount, stock deep and deliver very quickly. Of course they also have all the odd lines you will never see in a store.

It would be nice to support the B&M but at what price? Buying from a limited selection only, at full price? Rushing on delivery day to make sure you get the pieces you want? Propping up a store because it has gaming events, when I dont ever use them?

Really you just need to shop around and go with who gives you the best service and prices-online or B&M. The threats of 'if you dont support them, they will go away' are pointless. If they can't fulfill your needs why shop there?

Here is a thread which sheds light on why some LGS's don't do well

link

I'm a historical miniature gamer, and I live about 30 minutes from Tacoma and an hour from Seattle. There are two shops in Tacoma, and one in Seattle that I regularly visit. We don't have a super game store in terms of historical miniatures stock. I think it is an extremely difficult business. An owner has to almost have ESP to anticipate the interests of customers. It's really easy to have thousands of dollars in stock left unsold if you guess wrong. Most owners seem to be enthusiastic hobbyists themselves, and aren't in the business to be zillionaires.

What our local stores lack in stock they make up for in their friendly supportive manner. They offer us gaming space, they'll special order and do their best to support the local game space. It's easy to take them for granted and shop on line, but they've supported our game efforts, and I think (hope) that our local gamers support them whenever possible. For difficult to get stuff, or if I'm in a hurry I do order on line, but I try to consider them first. I'm also an impulse buyer, and all of the shops have something I can spend cash or plastic upon.

Kevin

Rogcollectibles, I'm not trying to tell others to support FLGS, I'm just pointing out that if nobody supports them then they will go away. I personally would hate to see that happen. In my area we have seen a tremendous reduction in gaming stores. I'm not trying to blame internet sales. I'm just concerned about a hobby that I have enjoyed for so long.

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My FLGS has an ample back room for hosting gaming events. The owner charges $5 USD per event regardless of the game system. He also sells pop and munchies at the store at $.50 USD cents a shot. So in an average weekend….

Yu-Gi-Oh CCG, 20 people at $5 USD= $100 USD Magic:The Gathering, 8 people at $5 USD= $40 USD Heroclix, 4 at $5 USD= $20 USD Mechwarrior, 6 at $5 USD= $30 USD Grand total for an average weekend of events= $190 USD One pop per person= $19 USD Not to mention that each person attending the events usually buys some other product related to a game system they play.
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Did I get this right? You say that it's worthwhile for the owner to keep the store open for the entire weekend for $190 USD in sales?
-------------------------------------------
That's not what he said exactly.

My store doesn't charge for playing in this manner, yet. Lucky for us that we're in south Florida and can hold tournaments outside during the winter. We will charge for space when we move to a larger location that will have more gaming space inside. But what we do now is have tournaments, mostly CCG and CMG, and charge $3 USD per player for entry. On Saturday we have 3 Yu-Gi-Oh tournaments throughout the day, plus Magic and Pokemon. The money generated is not a lot, but it helps. Other events happen other days. Some kids do not buy sodas or snacks, but many buy way more than one of either. We also have sales, lots of sales.

How much do parents pay babysitters or day-care to watch their little precious darlings? We do it for free, although quite without the attention or responsibility ( you get what you pay for ) . We do keep things orderly and for the most part the kids are behaved; after all, they are here doing what they want to do. We have to remind them at times that we are NOT their mothers and they have to clean up after themselves ( holding up on the next tournament does wonders for getting things cleaned quickly ) .

I'm just glad we have a couple employees that are great with the little brats, er, children. : )

Glen
Dragon's Lair Games
Ft. Lauderdale, FL

link

I think my point was more directed at those who carp about supporting gaming stores at all costs. I was trying to point it out that it is becoming harder for me to want to do so.

In my area, if you arent into GW games, forget it, the interest is just not there for me. When GW puts out new product I like, I go there and buy it. For me though, this isnt a regular thing anymore. I am into a weird range of minis and games that I would never have seen if it wasnt for the internet. I would probably be working in a sweatshop ad agency as well if it wasnt for the internet.

I just wish I was seeing more reasons to personally support local places. I do so when I can. I really enjoy going into a great gaming store loaded with possibilities and reasons to blow money. I am finding that I am turning to other forms of entertainment such as dvds and related stuff to quench my need for on the spot spending.

I wish the stores well that deserve it and use them whenever I can. The places where the staff would rather game or read than wait on a customer, etc, they deserve to be out of business. This goes for any business. Cold hard facts of the business world and how you spend your hard earned.

In my area, we are more blessed with a good selection of different FLGS. First there are the Riders Hobby Shops that carry a general selection of hobby items like planes, trains, cars, board games and GW. I usually go to Riders when I am looking for an item that has been out a while but I never got around to purchasing. Next there is a small privately owned game store called Pandemonium that sells almost exclusively GW but they have two huge rooms dedicated to gaming. One is usually used for CCGs but the other room has terrain and tables available at anytime of day. This store usually doesn't close until midnight so I usually go here when I am out late after 9:00pm and want to browse some gaming stuff or pick up some paint or brush for late night painting. My most frequented FLGS is called Old Guard Hobbies, which actually has two locations. This store carries a mix of traditional hobby stuff but mostly military models. It carries GW and several other miniature lines like Reaper, Vampire Wars, some Warmachine and at one time Celtos (they are clearing this out). They also carry a nice selection of miniature magazines like Miniature Wargaming and Wargames Illustrated. No gaming tables or gaming done in the store BUT you get 20% off all GW miniatures. So this is where I usually buy all my GW miniatures. I try my best to support them all but if I had to choose I would keep the Old Guard stores over the others any day simply because I "need" the discount to be able to afford GW and they sell enough of other miniature lines for me to get what I want before they stop carrying them. For example they just recently got two boxes of the confrontation Hybrid game in even though they don't sell the figures. They also just got in the Conan RPG Book, which I was interested in browsing through. As for the Internet, I best I buy one or two miniatures every six months on the internet and that is only after I find out if the FLGS can special order it for me (for which I usually get a discount if they can). For me, the only "Internet" ordering I do with complete confidence, after being ripped off by New Wave, is through Brookhurst. I will easily order $50.00 or more from them. Anywhere else I start small like less than $10.00 and that's only if the S&H is less than $3.00.

Reddrabs made a good point about niche markets with 2mm fine scale. I do HOn2 1/2--Maine two-foot gauge in HO scale, on the same track gauge as N standard gauge, a convenient compromise. There is precisely one shop in the universe--in Maine--that pulls together the various craftman kits for this specialized area of interest. Most of the craftsman kits have runs numbering in the *tens*!

I suspect there are a lot of other model railway niches that are equally small, and which make even the most obscure historical miniature wargames eras look well populated. Yet they chug along...

Allen

Kind of tangential to my own position, but I DO agree with those who are saying that they don't buy at the local shop because they don't get service.

I attempted, last year, to order three (fairly pricey) items at my local shop at three different times. Each time I came back in, asking for my order, to be met with the response "What order?"

Needless to say, I shop online.

Maxxon

Yes it is very worthwhile for the guy to keep a gaming store open all weekend... when would everybody game?

The $190 isn't a sales figure... that's an average of event admissions. The events draw people to the store and they spend even more money while they are there. I've seen Yu-Gi-Oh kids drop insane money on pop and chips alone, add to that cards and comics. Two weekends ago, i saw 2 Magic players drop $45 dollars on Mageknight Dungeons product.

About the guy's overhead and wages... i honestly don't know how much he pays the two other people that work there. Rumor is they work for product, but i can't attest to that. I do know that the people that run the Magic, Mageknight and Mechwarrior tournaments are volunteers. BTW, minumum wage here is $5.15/hour... i think, been awhile since i've been paid like that.

I also know that he moves a lot of product he doesn't sell in the store on ebay. That way, he's not sitting on dead product in the store.

I owned The Toy Soldier in MA (USA) for over 12 years. It is still running because of or thanks to GW but it is open with lots of games and tables. Glad I'm out though. Things were different when I opened in 1979. A 400 square foot shop, $1000 in inventory, wow. Heck I was the first dungeon master in the area (how soon they all forget.) I remember wondering if I could afford to stock 2 of each D&D hard bound book then. Funny how things have changed but that's just it, things change. I also worked for three national hobby wholesalers including Liberty and Greenfield. I managed Greenfields NE warehous for seven years. I lived though the card debacle that sucked all the kabino's out of the hobby. Heck those darn cards put a new bathroom in my now ex's house :) Though I wouldn't change a bit of it then - there is no going back. I try to support my local shops when I can. The web is "the duct tape of the world" now..Chris

This has been interesting and timely for me to read through as I have been thinking about leaving the corporate consulting world and starting a store myself. It is clear that many intelligent people have contributed to this topic and I am surprised that while particular examples are brought out, nobody has (that I have noticed) summed up the theme behind them.

While people can debate issues of discounts, niche markets, etc., this industry is facing something increasingly common in our economy...buying primarily for the product vs. buying primarily for the experience.

Nowhere is this phenomenon more clearly on display than the movie/cinema industry. Anymore, one has to wait no longer than 3-4 months to rent a newly released movie on DVD or some digitally provided "on demand" service. Why then, do people continue to go out to the theater, drop 7.00-10.00 USD on each ticket, goodness knows how much for refreshments, and leave 2-3 hours later 40.00 USD poorer (and this only assumes two people)...I hope they enjoyed the experience.

There it is; they paid the money because how they experienced the product (in a dark theater with sound all around, uninterrupted, etc.) was more important than simply "purchasing" the product in whatever context. To many of the points above, gaming stores MUST sell the experience to the customers. Customers must not simply be willing to go, but must be LOOKING FORWARD to it. If a store doesn't manage to intrigue and motivate its market to EXPERIENCE gaming, it cannot survive, because it will never be able to compete on product alone.

I hope this was not too long-winded, but I feel passionately about this. My local store and its service have left me undterwhelmed, and that is why I have begun thinking about opening my own. Feel free to pick me apart, as the challenge to my thinking would be valuable, given my circumstances.

pejota,

I think you missed my point. Ofcourse it's worthwhile for the players, but is it really worthwhile for the owner?

So, he has two guys minding the store, for 8 hours on two days for about $5 per hour. Let's assume that there are no other expenses.

That's 8 * 2 * 2 * $5 = $160. Ok, so the price of admission covers the pay for the store minders. If the players actually buy something that they wouldn't have bought anyway, then it's worthwhile.

The reason I'm asking is because where I come from, due to minimum wage, mandatory overtime pay, social security expenses etc. etc. etc. the only option for small businesses to keep the doors open on weekends is if the owner himself mans the store.

And over here, paying in product would probably be ILLEGAL (as in "tax evasion" or "paying under minimum wage").

As I stated in my article in the Time Portal Passages magazine (Spring 2004), a Mom and pop store cannot rely on the sales to friends or local clubs to stay in business for the long term. The revenue is too limited and also too narrow of a population customer base.

[And over here, paying in product would probably be ILLEGAL (as in "tax evasion" or "paying under minimum wage").]

Even if it's GW product? ;-)

Zarquon stated:
1. You can look at the items before you purchase them.

2. Most of the brick and mortar stores have space to game in and will sponsor clubs, demos tournaments and the like.

3. You don't have to worry about receiving the products. I have been stung by online outfits more than once who will happily take my money but never deliver the goods. I have lost a lot more money to New Wave than to my local gaming store.

4. There are no shipping expenses or minimum orders. Now, the online retailers have not been required to collect sales tax -- yet. So this may be a wash. But online, you may pay $1.00 for a figure and %5.00 to ship it.

In addition to these points, I would like to add
1) You can get product reviews from the owner and staff.
2) you can find other gamers with the same interests to expand your gaming group.
3)Demos of new releases give you a chance to play before you buy.
4) Many stores provide a search resource for discontinued games.
5) Stores provide a forum and information source for gamers to stay updated on issues; local, national and international that affect the hobby we share.
6) Most stores are a great source for information about upcoming conventions

Zarquon stated:

1. You can look at the items before you purchase them.

2. Most of the brick and mortar stores have space to game in and will sponsor clubs, demos tournaments and the like.

3. You don't have to worry about receiving the products. I have been stung by online outfits more than once who will happily take my money but never deliver the goods. I have lost a lot more money to New Wave than to my local gaming store.

4. There are no shipping expenses or minimum orders. Now, the online retailers have not been required to collect sales tax -- yet. So this may be a wash. But online, you may pay $1.00 for a figure and %5.00 to ship it.

In addition to these points, I would like to add:

1) You can get product reviews from the owner and staff.

2) you can find other gamers with the same interests to expand your gaming group.

3)Demos of new releases give you a chance to play before you buy.

4) Many stores provide a search resource for discontinued games.

5) Stores provide a forum and information source for gamers to stay updated on issues; local, national and international that affect the hobby we share.

6) Most stores are a great source for information about upcoming conventions

Happy American peoples . In France, even in Paris, you can't see a single Historical figure in a shop ...
GW an Confrontation, some fenryll ... and that's all ...
If you want to see some figs, you hav to go to some shows ...
And most frenchies doesn't buy using e-trade .... as most websites doesn't speak french ....
I'm trying to work whith some manufacturers, but they dont understand that french wargaming market exist . (france is the most important GW european market ) . But frnch wargamers need rules, on-line stores etc .. in French .

The two main services that the brick and mortar store provide for me are:

1) The ability to take a look at the merchandise. This is extremely important for miniatures rules I may be interested in, or other board wargames. I want to know what I'm buying.

2) The ability to spend a small amount of money at a time. Most on-line retailers are economical to use only if ordering a substantial amount, due to how shipping costs are calculated. In the U.S. there usually is a "magic amount" where the shipping costs become less than what the tax would be. However, I often don't like to spend more than $10 to $20 at a time (I play 6mm WWII, so $20 can actually go a long way, plus my family is on a very tight budget). When spending is that low, it actually saves me money to buy from a regular store.

Mike

Zarquon/Topkick:

1. You can look at the items before you purchase them.

This can be done online.

2. Most of the brick and mortar stores have space to game in and will sponsor clubs, demos tournaments and the like.

This cannot be done online.

3. You don't have to worry about receiving the products. I have been stung by online outfits more than once who will happily take my money but never deliver the goods. I have lost a lot more money to New Wave than to my local gaming store.

A debatable point, as I have had more problems with orders placed with mom & pop than on ebay, but I'll grant it for the sake of argument.

4. There are no shipping expenses or minimum orders. Now, the online retailers have not been required to collect sales tax -- yet. So this may be a wash. But online, you may pay $1.00 for a figure and %5.00 to ship it.

This is a point, but, ultimately, costs must go WAY down, as you are eliminating the middle man.

In addition to these points, I would like to add 1) You can get product reviews from the owner and staff.

This can be done online.

2) you can find other gamers with the same interests to expand your gaming group.

This can be done online.

3)Demos of new releases give you a chance to play before you buy.

This can be done online, sort-of. You can certainly contact manufacturers online, and get demos for a gaming group.

4) Many stores provide a search resource for discontinued games.

Nowhere near as well as ebay does.

5) Stores provide a forum and information source for gamers to stay updated on issues; local, national and international that affect the hobby we share.

This can be done online.

6) Most stores are a great source for information about upcoming conventions

This can be done online.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, got nothin' but love for ya, but most of what you are crediting m&p stores with can be done online. When you add in the price breaks that ultimately must take place when the emarket fully matures, I think there is no comparison.

But, in any case, this is just a "see, I toldja so" argument in the making. The next 10-20 years will show which of us is right.

Cheers.

I am curious to know if any professional(theres that word...) painters buy their stock in a B&M store.

I find that its very hard for me to do. Full price is bad for the bottom line, try driving around the block 5 times only to find the store doesnt have what you need & you end up ordering it from the warstore anyway. Painting time wasted travelling.

I do buy some stock in stores but its just alot easier and cost efficient for me to buy online.

It works nicely to find a huge lot of good stuff on ebay but this often happens instore as well because lines other than gw eventually fall to the discount bins.

Zarquon/Topkick:

1. You can look at the items before you purchase them.

This can be done online.

I've never been able to actually see anything other than a picture of the product when shopping on-line. I like to actually pick up the item, read the designers comments on the bottom of the box and sometimes the Mom and Pop store has an open copy that I can actually look inside the box and check out the quality of the product. I probably would have bought the Kenzer & Co post-apocolypse game if I had seen it on-line but after looking at the open copy at the gamestore i was able to see the poor quality of the product and determine it was not worth my gamiing dollars.

2. Most of the brick and mortar stores have space to game in and will sponsor clubs, demos tournaments and the like.

This cannot be done online.

3. You don't have to worry about receiving the products. I have been stung by online outfits more than once who will happily take my money but never deliver the goods. I have lost a lot more money to New Wave than to my local gaming store.

A debatable point, as I have had more problems with orders placed with mom & pop than on ebay, but I'll grant it for the sake of argument.

4. There are no shipping expenses or minimum orders. Now, the online retailers have not been required to collect sales tax -- yet. So this may be a wash. But online, you may pay $1.00 for a figure and %5.00 to ship it.

This is a point, but, ultimately, costs must go WAY down, as you are eliminating the middle man.

In addition to these points, I would like to add

1) You can get product reviews from the owner and staff.

This can be done online.

There are too many guys on-line who front for game companies and feed you the company line. The local gamestore knows they will be getting my money as long as they keep me happy. So I feel I can trust their judgement more than some guy I do not know on-line

2) you can find other gamers with the same interests to expand your gaming group.

This can be done online.

Really - I never have been able to walk down to my local computer and meet others who play the same games I do and set up a game immediately.

3)Demos of new releases give you a chance to play before you buy.

This can be done online, sort-of. You can certainly contact manufacturers online, and get demos for a gaming group.

First I have to convince the manufacturer to send a demo kit to my group, then get online and work out a time that is mutually agreeable for the gang and then finally sit down to play 6 - 8 weeks later. How is this better than walking down the street and sitting in on a demo?

4) Many stores provide a search resource for discontinued games.

Nowhere near as well as ebay does.

Depends on the obscurity of the game.

5) Stores provide a forum and information source for gamers to stay updated on issues; local, national and international that affect the hobby we share.

This can be done online.

True but the local gamestore is a one stop source rather than hunting all over the net.

6) Most stores are a great source for information about upcoming conventions

This can be done online.

If you do not know about the con how do you know what to search for on-line? My store keeps flyers from all the conventions in the surrounding states and subscribes to a newsletter so he can answer questions on just about any con in the world.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, got nothin' but love for ya, but most of what you are crediting m&p stores with can be done online. When you add in the price breaks that ultimately must take place when the emarket fully matures, I think there is no comparison.

But, in any case, this is just a "see, I toldja so" argument in the making. The next 10-20 years will show which of us is right.

I'm not trying to start anything either but I'm not looking forward 20-30 years into the future. The demise of the Mom and Pop store is a current problem and will leave a void in the gaming community that the net will not fill for years.

Just my 2 cents - spend 'em any way you want.