"Help needed: AWI Infantry + militia uniforms!" Topic

I am posting on behalf of my Dad.

He's recently purchased some Perry Continental AWI Infantry and some Southern Militia. He has some visual guides but wants to know how to translate these into paint colours.

He wants to paint his infantry like pack AW39 which can be found here
picture

and wants to know what colours you can recommend for his figures? (Preferably Vallejo)

Also, could you recommend any key colours for his militia packs?

Thanks for your help in advance,
Consul.

I am very interested in awi, but I always get away of this period because I need a very simple and easy painting guide… so I will thanks your help, too

Patriot or Loyalist Southern militia?

Militia would still have a mix of regimentals for officers.

We did an article in Time Portal Passages for both patriot adn Loyalist uniforms.

Since magweb is not functioning, Send me an email at scottnelson@bellsouth.net

and I will send you the unifrom section of the articles.

Rudy,
Are you coming to the Williamsburg Muster? I would like to get copies of all the AWI articles you have written.
Dan

Rudy, they are Patriot militia I think.

I'll send you an email in the next few minutes so check your inbox in a minute!

Any direct paint colour references anyone could give me would be very helpful!

Consul.

Dn, I will be there and will bring some hard copies of the issues.

Consul, I sent you the articles.
Many militia have a mix of toen clothes (variety of coat and breeches colors), farmer clothes (more patchwork older clothes) and if on the frontier (buckskin) dress.

Thanks, I have received the articles…very useful thank you!

Once again, if anyone could translate these colours into specific paints it would be great, thanks!

Consul.

Sorry but i do not stock that line.

If it's of any interest, I know the guy who painted the figures in the link. The four on the right are from a Rhode Island regiment, the two on the left are either from an infantry unit of the Mid-Atlantic colonies (PA/MD/DE) or the Continental Artillery.

Supercilius,

Whilst browsing various blogs, i've seen your name come up a few times with reference to you on TMP.

If it's not too much trouble, could you get in contact with the guy and ask him what colours he used for those figures? It would be of great help to myself and anyone else on the forum interested to know!

Thank you for the information on their parent regiments, I'm sure it will come in useful for more specific research later on.

Thanks for your help,
Consul.

I'm afraid I can't help with Vallejo (can't stand the whole pipette thing), but as a veteran AWI painter/wargamer I can recommend the following Foundry paint palettes (each of which has 3 colours):

- Continental blue (i.e.the main coat colour in the officers and ensigns): Deep Blue 20
- White facings and breeches: Arctic Grey 33
- Buff breeches: Buff Leather 7
- Crimson sashes: Deep Maroon 64
- Drum tops: Base Sand 10
- Canvas bags: Palomino 56 or Raw Linen 30
- Muskets: Spearshaft 13
- Hats and anything black: Charcoal Black 34
- Stockings (on 4th and 5th from left): Granite 31

More painting info on the posts here: link

and, for militia, here: link
Giles

I don't know any knowledgable re-enactors that will tell you the stars and stripes were ever carried during this war. I have some on units given to me and I plan to take them all off.

For some reason, that white coated/blue faces musician doesn't look right to me. Perhaps I have never seen the reverse colors in white/blue.

Also, those uniforms (New England/NY with white facings) are "perfect" uniforms, but depending on what year/campaign he wants them to represent, that may not be the uniform he wants to have.

Rudy, I'll be there with the cash. :)

I don't know any knowledgable re-enactors that will tell you the stars and stripes were ever carried during this war. I have some on units given to me and I plan to take them all off.
>>
Knowledgeable reenactor here! Get rid of those damn Betsy Ross flags!! LOL!

And those so called "regulation" 1779 uniforms didn't really come to fruition from what I've read. Maybe the Mollo book says so,but I wouldn't take that as Gospel by a long shot!

Militia? They wore civilian clothes of any and all colors and shades,so,knock yourself out there!

I do a militia impression,and this is what I wear:

Dark blue single breasted frock coat.
Dark blue breeches
Steel or medium gray wool stockings
Brown linen waistcoat
Off white civilian shirt
Period commoners shoes,no buckles,laced.
Plain,black cocked hat with white worsted cords and tassels
Wooden "cheesebox" canteen
Medium gray/buff haversack
Red ochre single button pack with gray linen straps.
18 hole belly box with bayonet in scabbard.
Long Land pattern Brown Bess OR French 1728/41 pattern musket.

Hope that helps!

TWo back issues at $4 USD each for a total of $8. USD
Hope to see you there.
Rudy

I think what is throwing me is the link to nothern uniforms of the late war period and the reference to "Southern Militia" which seems kind of contradictory.

For a simple painting scheme for the patriots, here's what I do. First, I classified the foot troops into three basic "types": militia, State regiments (glorified militia), and Continentals.

For most basic militia types, select the minis and paint them however you'd like. They can be in shirtsleeves, fancy coats, barefoot, etc. Just ensure that the unit as a whole has no uniformity whatsoever. However I make sure that the minis do NOT have bayonets. They're militia: they aren't properly trained in the use of the bayonet.

For "State" troops, I tend to paint most of them in some basic uniform scheme, but not all. I primarily tend to go with either brown or blue jackets or various hunting jackets depending on the sketchy info that exists out there. Some units may even resemble trained "Continentals" with the sole exception that THEY DO NOT HAVE BAYONETS either as I doubt most state units would have the bayonet training that Von Steuben and Co. offered.

Last come the Continentals themselves. These are just like the "State troops" above, but I usually model them with bayonets to tell them apart,as they are trained in their use and "steadier".

I'm still waiting for the Perrys to provide some Continental Light Infantry, as I need American elites. The news that they are readying French may help fill this void however, and add a great deal of color to the army.

As far as banners go, I have yet to see anything definitive about what particular banners most units carried, so I feel free to use whatever I like, Betsy Ross flags included, until or unless I know for sure otherwise.

Consul,

I am pretty sure that he uses Foundry – see GiloUK's post for colours (cannot get hold of him at the moment).

Consul, I've jsut noticed the comment you left on one of my TQ militia posts. As others have said above, for militia yo8u are looking at shirts in white/off-white/pale beige and then coats, breeches and waistcoats in browns, greys, dark blues, dark greens, creams etc. Foundry have loads of palettes of such colours – the browns are particularly useful, I find.

Giles

OK I'm not bothered about showing my ignorance in respect of a Betsy Ross flag so can someone tell me what it is please and, perhaps even more interestingly, how it got it's name?

Thanks

It's the one with 13 stripes and the 13 stars in a circle, supposedly sewn by Ms Ross's own fair hands, and carried at _________ (insert battle of your choice from 1777 on).

Unfortunately, the only evidence for it is an interview with one of her descendants many years later. It was never carried as a "national" flag by the Continental Army (eg as the equivalent of a King's Colour), and every story of it being carried in battle has either turned out to be myth, or else a different flag was carried.

In reality the "national" flag (ie stars and stripes) was designed as a naval ensign to identify American/Continental ships on the high seas. There was no official design agreed, and numerous versions were recorded (including red, white and blue stripes, five, six (and more) points on the stars, and the stars set in rows). Trivia point – no deisgn has ever been officially repealed, so technically every form used since 1776 remains legal.

The "Grand Union" (same flag with the Union in the canton instead of the stars) raised during the siege of Boston may have been a prototype "land" flag, but not at regimental level. A two-flag system was supposed to be designed to accompany the official uniform regulations of 1779, and dark blue material was delivered for the "national" colours (the "regimental" colours would be the facing colour), but no design was ever agreed on by the committee set up, which included Washington (though I believe the eagle and the national seal were both considered).

If you can, get hold of Edward Richardson's book on flags and standards of the AWI (may still be in print, but the public library should still be able to get you a copy).

Thanks very much SM – highly informative!

I've always had a keen interest in gaming the ACW but recently I've become very interested in gaming the AWI as well. Appreciate the help…stand by for more questions!

Unfortunately, the only evidence for it is an interview with one of her descendants many years later. It was never carried as a "national" flag by the Continental Army (eg as the equivalent of a King's Colour), and every story of it being carried in battle has either turned out to be myth, or else a different flag was carried.
>>
NO stars and stripes were carried by an American Army till the Mexican-American War in 1846/47.

Bob

The Stars and stipres were a naval and installation garrison flag.

In regards i had to find an old 1962 reference book that I had. According to 'Flags of American History variations of the Stars and Stripes were carried by several infantry units in the American Revolution.
As the book and the above poster states infnatry units did not carry it as a national but carried regimental colors (no mention of State flags either).
The first stars and stripe was flown by John Hulbert of the Long Island Militia in 1776. The stars were arranged in the form of a cross. top and bottom row one star; second and fourth rows three stars; middle (third row five stars.

The first being the Bennington Flagflown in 1777. It had 13 stars arching the number 76. It was carried by Vermont area militia.
The second one noted was the Stars in a circle carried by the Third Maryland at Cowpens in 1781
The artillery was not authorized to carry the Stars/stripes until 1834, infantry 1841and cavalry in 1895.

he first being the Bennington Flagflown in 1777. It had 13 stars arching the number 76. It was carried by Vermont area militia.
The second one noted was the Stars in a circle carried by the Third Maryland at Cowpens in 1781
>>>
That Bennington flag originated around the Centennial,hence the" 76" on it. The flag is too long and heavy to have been carried.Textile historians have confirmed that.

Tha so called "Cowpens flag" was carried in the Mexican War by the Maryland and District of Columbia Volunteers.

That Bennington flag was everywhere during the Bicentennial,but it was never even around during the Revolution!

Bob C.

Bob I am not for sure on the bennington flag. The books says it was used by vermont militia in 1777.

The same for the maryland 3rd Rgt carrying the flag at Cowpens though Richardson does say there is some debate about it being carried. But then commetns on such flags being carried as brigade standards (marking HQ and commander?).

Why would they carry a 13 star flag in the mexican War? A strange regimental flag for that war and I saw the notation in the Richardson book. But I have saw a lot of unusual flags carried by volunteer units.

The Mexican War national flag had 28 stars in horizonal rows but star arrangement style was not specified. Nor were ther regulations controling the design of volunteer unit flags.

Though your point Bob was well supported by the 1841 regulations and my comment "…The artillery was not authorized to carry the Stars/stripes until 1834, infantry 1841and cavalry in 1895…"

Bob I am not for sure on the bennington flag. The books says it was used by vermont militia in 1777.
>>
Which book? I got my info from the Richardson book,and I knew it years before,but forgot where I read it.
As for the Cowpens flag,yes,it was a strange type of flag to be carried,but it WAS from a volunteer unit,which basically carried what they wanted with no regard towards Federal regulations.

Personally,I have NEVER used it for my AWI figures. I use mostly the Gostleowe colors,a stand which was captured by Tarleton in the South,and other Liberty or known flags. If I can't find any info on a color,I go without. But I find the so called Betsy Ross flag very stereotypical and to me looks silly,or Hollywood-ish to use.

Bob

'Flags of American History ' that I mentioned. but as Richardson said a lot more research needs to be done on several flags.

Here is a regimental flag that Continental re-enactors used for a Cowpens re-enactment. They've not opted for stars and stripes here.

link

Also here is a link to a site showing some of the disputed AWI flags.

txscv.tripod.com/revolt.htm

Flags for the lads have done 2 years research on AWI flags.

link

Another site with the Betsy Ross (1777), Bennington (1777) and Cowpens or "Third Maryland Regiment" flag (1781).

link

And to round it off the debate on the "American State flags" topic

TMP link

Also here is a link to a site showing some of the disputed AWI flags.

txscv.tripod.com/revolt.htm
>>
Yes it shows them but is also using the bogus info I posted about.
Too much legend,not enough fact.

Bob

Is it so wrong to place bogus flags on the regts? I think not. It is pretty. It sets off the figures as fighting men. It's patriotic and shows esprit de wargame. So fly your flags high, wargamers, high and proud and as colorful as you want. And may God bless and endorse real and fake American flags forever and you don't have to believe in God for Him to bless your fake flag. In fact you could be a Deist. It's all good. Just do it. Fly a Nike flag for God's sake. Just don't put Tiger in the commercial right now.

Some anti-correlation with the amount of lace? As one get closer and closer to Napoleonic times, 18th C. wargamers seem more and more concerned (and sometimes argumentative) about the perfect historicity of uniforms and flags. Did they use bricoles during the AWI?

Why not get it right when you can – or conversely, why get it wrong when you don't have to?

Why not get it right when you can – or conversely, why get it wrong when you don't have to?
>>
Hmmm,that sounds familiar!!

Because that there Betsy Ross flag looks damn snazzy,whether its right or not! Its AMERICAN!!

Ugh…NO,its WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

Bob

Why not get it right when you can – or conversely, why get it wrong when you don't have to?

No reason, of course! Quite the contrary, specially when it comes to miniature painting.
(As for the 'gaming' side, firstly I feel that those believing they are really doing accurate, 'serious' military simulations on their maps and tabletops are full of delusions. But chiefly I feel more confortable when wargamers unambiguously show they don't take their hobby *too* seriously. If you think a second about it, to associate war with game is rather abominable, obscene: thus, I prefer when wargamers acknowledge that they are adults playing with toy soldiers. With the innocence of children.)

But my point / observation was merely that, when a Lace Wars player:
- fields Grenadiers Royaux with bearskins (without any supporting evidence, and against any likelihood) "because they look better",
- gives a flag to his converged grenadiers (against all evidence; but, being 'reasonable', a battalion flag from one of the parent regiment -from a 1st batallion actually, since this last still has the Leibfhane as alignement mark and rallying focus) "because an unit looks poor without a flag",
he gains mainly tolerant smiles and understanding nods.
The less and less so as the period played comes closer to the end of the century.
Thus I was wondering about a possible 'harmony' between a wargamer's mental attitude / approach of the hobby and the nature of warfare during his favorite period: the (supposedly) dispassionate / gentlemanly Lace Wars contrasted with the politically-driven cruel Revolutionary Wars?

But my point / observation was merely that, when a Lace Wars player:
- fields Grenadiers Royaux with bearskins (without any supporting evidence, and against any likelihood) "because they look better",
- gives a flag to his converged grenadiers (against all evidence; but, being 'reasonable', a battalion flag from one of the parent regiment -from a 1st batallion actually, since this last still has the Leibfhane as alignement mark and rallying focus) "because an unit looks poor without a flag",
he gains mainly tolerant smiles and understanding nods.
The less and less so as the period played comes closer to the end of the century.
Thus I was wondering about a possible 'harmony' between a wargamer's mental attitude / approach of the hobby and the nature of warfare during his favorite period: the (supposedly) dispassionate / gentlemanly Lace Wars contrasted with the politically-driven cruel Revolutionary Wars?
>>
A lot of things LOOK better,but that doesn't make them right! I like to do my research,if I can't find evidence a unit wore bearskins,I won't have them. Do units look better with flags?? Of course! But I know my 2 Bn's of Brit Guards left them in England before coming to America,so they are flag-less.
Units look GREAT in their parade ground uniforms of tall gaiters and powdered hair,BUT, MOST of the time the gaiters and or bearskins were put in storage for the campaign,and the uniforms adapted accordingly.

IF the evidence and research is there,WHY ignore it??? Can you? Yes of course,but to ME,it makes no sense. Will people care or even notice if my flags are right,or if thats the correct uniform of a certain unit? No,probably not,but "I" will,thats whats important to me.

SOME reenactors are the same way.They KNOW a certain thing wasn't used or worn,but they continue to wear or use it,even after many years and proven research.Just because, IT LOOKS GOOD!

Bob

Bob
I'm totally unable to comment about reenactors. But when it comes to wargamers, some people may feel less uncomfortable with the obscene association of war with game when wargaming is obviously not taken more 'seriously' than the "Bang! You're dead!" of children playing Cow-boys & Indians; when wargamers do not claim to be 'seriously' simulating a bloodbath, but acknowledge to be adults playing with toy soldiers. Such detachment cannot be dissociated from an indulgent tolerance toward other people's approach of the hobby.

To devote time and passion to personal reasearch in order to paint historically accurate miniatures, as you are justifiably proud of doing, is quite another matter than 'accurately' *playing* a mutual slaughter.

As I get older – I find that I am far more comfortable telling people that I play with "Toy Soldiers" then I was in my youth.

My AWI collection is made up of "Brigades" with troops organized roughly by region – but the units and uniforms are not common to one another. My 14th Continental Regiment of 1776 serves alongside the 2nd New Hampshire Regiment of 1778, and Warner's Regiment of 1777 completes the set. Flags are historic if I can find them – but they end up with some banner – even it I know it is wrong. I have a Southern Brigade, a Pennsylvania Brigade – my Maryland Delaware has two regiments of "ragged Continentals" as the Delaware Regiment and 1st Maryland from Greene's campaigns paired with a 2nd Maryland in the hunting shirt uniform of 1776. Call it for what it is – eye candy – which is why I play with miniatures and not with cardboard counters or on a computer.

I run games at conventions and other places as a means of getting people involved in the hobby. If someone looks at my setup and tells me I am wrong – I will agree with them and not be put off – I will in fact compliment them on their knowledge. If I can get someone interested in the period – they can learn about my foibles as part of their education in the period.

Currently my star unit is the Loyal Ethiopians – who will be out this weekend in a thinly disguised refight of Camden called the Battle of Granny Quarter Creek. They will be filling in for some North Carolina Loyalist militia that I need to paint up someday. They carry a red ensign with the words "Liberty" on it. TOTALLY UNHISTORICAL I realize – but a great conversation starter if anyone looks closely at the unit.

My .02

Greg Novak