""Codex Creep" in Flames of War?" Topic

I was just reading the Designers Notes for the new Flames of War Eastern Front Mid-War Armies list book. I was a bit disturbed to read about significant changes in the point costs for several of the armies. Specifically, fearless-rated tanks are now significantly cheaper, meaning Soviet and SS, primarily. Seems like this is going to force most people to buy the new (hardcover) book. If they play tournaments they will have no choice and even friendly games would be unbalanced if one player was using the new book and another the old. I had already noticed a tendency for the new PDf briefings to introduce forces that seemed tougher than older forces, but this new revision takes this to new levels. I stopped playing the Games Workshop games primarily because of this "Codex Creep". I was hoping BF would not follow that route…

LoL…and MERRY CHRISTMAS to all

Ron

Gee, and all I was hoping for was that the Finns could make Combat Attachments with their HMG platoons.

I saw that and thought the same. Clearly they are hoping to sell more models – their main aim after all.

So – once the Germans are allowed to field stronger forces the allies will have to have more in order to balance it – and so on…

All highly predictable. And, frankly not important to most. I don't think people play in tournaments or follow points based games for long. But they do provide a base of supporters for a game like FOW so that it stays in print.

I'm torn about it really. All points systems are fundamentaly broken when written and would take decades of playtesting to hone down to a workable level. They never get this so there are always 'best buys' and best lists.

Personally, I don't look at the points values in FOW. I download the free pdfs and read them for their potted histories. Mostly it's a reasonable synthesis of what is easily enough found online anyway, but it's handy and interesting to read them anyway.

I agree with the op though. A shame but inevitable.

@Scott and Ron

Yes it could be some nefarious plan that Battlefront has to wring more $$ out of you. Heaven forbid that a for-profit company would think along those lines. So now you need 5 tanks instead of 4. Big deal.

It could also be to bring the point cost a little better in line with the more expensive late war equipment. Just a thought.

@John

I read that the most common piece of equipment the Finns had, from outside sources, was the Marder. No sign of one in FOW. Bet you'd like one (or 2) of those for the Continuation War?

Ralph

Yes, Ralph. I would indeed.
Plenty of StuGs, from the pdf files, though.
The Late War pdf files do allow attachments, which is why I have my hopes up, to be dashed in bitter disappointment.

As for their nefarious plans and plots, I buy Old Glory tanks anyway!

I haven't played any FOW for a while, not out of choice but because my regular opponent and I haven't been able to get it together to get a game on. I guess once from choice as we did get a game together but with the Black Powder rules we wanted to try that with ACW.

We almost never play with points so this won't really have much of an affect, I don't really mind when they tweak points. It is a fun game, the details of the units are laid out for me and that is why I play it.

If I remember right (having never gotten into this game, I play BKC instead), doesn't FOW encourge you to use any brand of figures you want even in a "official" tourney? So they push not only to sell their own minis, but any and all 15mm WWII ranges?
That wouldn't bother me (if I played it) nearly so much as GW's "codex creep" with their "you can only play with our toys" motto.

Ostfront was one of the first V2 supplements and BF stated in their notes that they deliberately kept points cost as unchanged as possible from V1 to minimize the pain of moving from V1 to V2. The new Eastern Front book allows them to reevaluate those points based on three years of V2 being out. Plus North Africa was a big historical improvement over Afrika and it seems that BF has tried to do that again in the Eastern Front book.

However I agree with Skarper in that all point systems are broken. A point system is a model, and going from my background as a scientist all models are inherently flawed. But models are also useful and that is why we have them, and the same holds true for point systems.

If you think it is "codex creep" then you really don't understand the marketing of this game. It is GW's model with a historical game based upon WWII – and I say based upon WWII because they have not and will not in my opinion, license the rights to have many American heroes in their books. Where is Audie Murphy? Not in there, where are many others, not in there. Why, because Hollywood and their estates still own the rights to their likeness when it comes to their exploits in WWII.

I'd quibble a bit with the codex creep issue, but you are essentially correct. They have made many units cheaper, which is probably a good thing, because for a points based game it is reasonably balanced sometimes, depending on the scenarios. As you stated, it would take a team of crack computer programmers years to fully balance any game system for tabletop gaming with a point system because of the number of variables. In my opinion, the cheapening of Fearless Veteran tanks is really not all that big a deal anyways, because you had to kill them off in the first place most of the time because of their morale level, the fact that they usually always rallied, and they were usually within range of higher command to get a re-roll. I play the game because it is fun. I've played in enough tournaments now to understand the rules, and done well – as in 1st place in all of them I've played in, with the exception of Enfilade 2009 – where it was a dead heat three way tie and I came in third on Rochambeau – I never did get rock-paper-scissors. (Why rock, paper or scissors when I've got a tank sitting right over there? )

As for buying their models, some are great, others ho-hum, some are oddly out of production and it is annoying. I purchase from QRF, Old Glory, Peter Pig as well as BF – depending on what is in stock at my local FLGS or who is having a big sale. QRF and Peter Pig are great when on sale and free shipping!

Being a more historical player than a tournament player I could care less about codex creep. Adjusting points after years and years of playing and probably millions of games doesn't seem that far fetched to me.

Phil is a big computer/math kind of a guy and if he tweaked some costs, I can bet you there was a solid reason for it. BF will make monetary decisions about which period or front to go to next. But as far as I know Phil has always based point decisions on Math and balanced play not on marketing or trying to sell a few more of model X.

I also buy models from all companies and have been itching to try FoW in 6 mm. Cheaper to build armies, easier to build realistic terrain, use the same rules and measurements but using smaller models will give it a more realistic esthetic. So over the next few weeks I will be giving it a shot.

chris

Well, one good thing may come of it:

picture

Allen

which is?

nice pic, but ?

chris

What's been missing (but required by lists) for a long time?

Horse drawn artillery for the Germans.
Do I win?

Proper limbers – excellent!

I might just get the old style ones I bought year's ago painted up before those new ones come out.

Thank you. I was afraid that the popular view of WWII (expressed as WW2, or WWW2…) had overlooked the lack of mechanization in the German and Soviet armies, and that everyone believed there were nothing but Tigers and IS-2s.

Oh, wait…

Allen

Actually, I believe

Good luck with the FOW rules changes, and competition games.

I dont know about the east front stuff, as I dont play it. But the North Afrika books seems to be a good improvement on the old Africa book. So I dont have a problem with buying it, I have a problem with finding any opponents anymore, so I have not bought it yet.

At $50, considering what I will spend on minis this next year, that is not that much. As for having to get new ones to add to my lists, well I would most likely be buying those anyway. Or if not for my DAK, then for my starting out Vietnam army. And that is not primarily for FoW, but for the lardies upcomeing Charlie doesnt surf. And if CDF doesnt make it out, the In the Buff, or the new version of Iaint been shot Mum.

Which ever way I go I will spend aboput the same on minis no matter what. Most likely to much, but thats the nature of addictions. And if I can convince anybody to try out 1/72nd Napoleonics, I will be sending you another order for the very cool Vaubon fort I have wanted for a couple years now, ever since it came out, and then you can afford more BF minis Scott!

It is just what we gamers seem to do.

If Battlefront was REALLY interested in just pimping their wares, they would REQUIRE horse drawn limbers and trucks on the table, and not make them optional. Even if they just sit idly by. Proper 6 horse limbers too, not scrawny 2 horse teams.

Heck, their resin trucks purchased strategically are dirt cheap.

$50 USD compared to the entertainment FOW generates is a deal. You can go see a movie for $10 USD and be entertained for 1.5 – 2 hours or spend $50 USD and get three years of fun out of it.

It's a deal in my eyes.

Hear, hear, John. Players who fail to take their free transport, or who leave the transport off the table because they're more of a liability than an asset, are sissy, girly untermenschen. Just like real men in Napoleonic gaming have Neapolitans or Spanish.

Allen

I don't think I've seen a supplement for any game that can't be described as "Codex Creep" if you're determined to find nefarious capitalist motivations in everything. Of course they want to sell more stuff. If nothing else, they're selling you another book! Welcome to the western world, Mister Holmes.

That said, the majority of the changes sound like they've mostly focused on specific lists for various units rather than the error-prone formulas provided in the older version of the book. I'm glad to see that the Soviet militia and Guards units are getting individual lists and options.

It sounds like the net change to a full Tankovy company is a whopping two more tanks. I don't consider that in the same league as wholesale eliminating certain unit types and rendering all previous builds obsolete.

Allen, I'm not sure if you mean horse limbers, artillery or brown tabletops, but I've got limbers for all my stuff. They quit making some of them, didn't they?

- Bob

They quite making all the good ones (wore the molds *and* masters out, supposedly) and left us with the peculiar limbers and very dodgy horses:

link

Allen

I read that the most common piece of equipment the Finns had, from outside sources, was the Marder. No sign of one in FOW. Bet you'd like one (or 2) of those for the Continuation War?

I guess FoW got things right then.

I am not aware of Finns having any Marders in WWII (or afterwards), and I am from Finland myself.

Allen wrote:

They quite making all the good ones (wore the molds *and* masters out, supposedly) and left us with the peculiar limbers and very dodgy horses

I've got a dozen of the old style with the rubber tires. The horses looked pretty bedraggled. I've got a bunch of Old Glory 15mm horses that look a bit more animated.

I think they also discontinued the old supply wagons. I have a couple, but had to trade one with a pal that was coveting it for his engineer list. I found a 15mm Civil War wagon that does match several photographs I've seen though. I'm re-working mine to highlight the heroic actions of Binky the Cart Horse, the famous survivor of the Komissar's wrath in one of Phil's forum replys. Binky has featured prominently in some of my games. It's a shame they don't produce those carts anymore.

Here are some of my limbers and Binky along with some less important equipment:

link

Unfortunately, I'm not very good at painting horses, and I do stick two sad little ponies with hauling each gun around, at least for now.

Never mind Codex Creep. We want LIMBER CREEP!

- Bob

Of course you need different limbers for Russian and German horse teams, since the bolt pattern they used is apparently different…..

Ja, der supply wagen ist kaput (but I have a good stash).

Yep, this what I think of as Binky the Cart Horse, mit cart:

link

He is a woeful, dispirited animal. But those carts are still in production, I believe, hopefully with all their spokes intact…

The proper limbers I'm thinking of were actual limbers, with half ridden horses. The horses were small, but well-formed, and frequently completely cast. They were similar to the horse in the two bottom cart photos here:

link

I never got that sort of horse in the cart packs, though: only poor Binky.

The proper limbers never got a Spotlight article. They weren't well loved. Until they were gone, of course.

Now this was a weird mix of those horses (none ridden) with the small rubber-tired limber:

link

Never got any of those, fortunately. Or perhaps unfortunately, because I could use the horses.

Allen

Does any of it matter? we know what business plan they are following and the company is designed to run at as large a profit as possible. Personally I do not like the game but I do have some of their models and some are quite good. Reasonably priced within a competitive market.

Does any of it matter?

I don't think so. This "codex" is updating all the armies at once, and all get goodies.
Proper "codex creep" does one army at a time, making it unbeatable, prferably in the first turn. Then, the NEXT book does the same thing to a different army, and so on.

I suspect that more figures will be purchased, but the Balance of Power will not change. My Finns will still be hideously expensive, and any gains will be offset by changes in the Russian lists. In other words, a proper arms race!

Allen wrote:

Ja, der supply wagen ist kaput (but I have a good stash).

Battlefront clearly is falling down on making purchase of the wagons mandatory. Hell, they should count as "rare" now, and cost 3X normal.

Yep, this what I think of as Binky the Cart Horse, mit cart:

That the horse I've got. Mine are all the same, with saddles. Someday (maybe) I'll go back and re-do the horses.

He is a woeful, dispirited animal. But those carts are still in production, I believe, hopefully with all their spokes intact…

They do not look like happy horses, which is appropriate I suppose. They do look a lot nicer than some of the Cossack horses. The online catalog still shows that spoked cart with "depressed binky" as XX650.

This new version of the limber (XX651) just doesn't look right to me: link

I think it reminds me to much of buggies I see around Lancaster, PA for some reason. The horses look altogether too happy.

- Bob

Have we been here bfore?

TMP link

You started it!

I am not aware of Finns having any Marders in WWII (or afterwards), and I am from Finland myself.

Yes I wrote that after Egg Nogg withdrawal. That should be StuG as John pointed out already. Mea Culpa.

Ralph

True North appears to have several Soviet horse-drawn limbers available. Has anybody seen those? Are they the "right stuff" for Soviet gear?

- Bob

There appears to be one, Bob: SUE02. Haven't seen it. That the horses are galloping kind of turns me off ordering.

I strongly suspect that SUE06--Small Gun Limber--is the same as the one that comes with SUE03:

link

That would be the type used for towing light antitank guns and mortars, usually behind a tractor (at least early on, using the Komsomolets). Quality Castings makes a very nicely detailed version, too:

link

For heavier antitank guns and field artillery, until BF gets back in the game, there are just the one from True North and the other ones from QC:

link

QC limbers aren't bad; they're just a little fiddly, The limber riders and horses are a bit small compared to other ranges, but they can work; see Dan Becker's French, using OOP BF infantry, Command Decision (*not* Battle Honors, as stated) guns and crews, and QC limbers:

link

Allen

Brown T-34's? That's different…

Mine? That angle doesn't really show the T-34s well. The other shots show the green better. It was just a drybrush that I tried at the time.

I like the QC limbers, Allen. At 5 for $10, they're a nice match if I model the horses separately.

- Bob

If Geoff of QRF is reading this….Horse Limbers….for Germans and Russians????

And what makes you think I am reading this?

Double dog dare him…

Changing army lists, changing points values, changing the supplements right after publishing them with pages & pages of online errata. The books were revised before you could even get them in your possession. It became too much work to stay up to date with the changes. I got tired of spending my hobby money on their ever changing revisions and moved on.

"…changing the supplements right after publishing them with pages & pages of online errata."

Or not providing errata at all.

"I got tired of spending my hobby money on their ever changing revisions and moved on."

Good for you! You won't mind, I hope, if some of the rest of us attempt to struggle on. Or that some of us don't try to follow every new campaign supplement, and mostly make do with the basic period lists. Or that some of us appreciate the free PDFs.

Allen

I feel so dirty for using the same lists I've used since 2006 or so.

- Bob

Cheap at the price. Especially the free late war PDFs which I printed out for my Finns. I would not mind buying an all-encompassing Finnish Front "codex", for Early Winter War, Continuation War and Lapland War.
At least they are not writing laws, like requiring owners of handguns on AMTRAC to be kept in locked boxes. THAT legislation got cleared up rel fast, or at least I hope it did.

I would have liked to see all the Normandy campaign books available in one humongous hard cover book.
I get annoyed buying Cobra or Bloody Omaha and finding that I need D-Day to play either one.

COnsidering that a new book only cost about the same as a platoon of tanks, thats not that bad unless you try to get them all. If that is your interest then great. But if it is not, you can play with just the main book.

That is no more expensive than any other system. As for other suplements, there are lots of folks asking for more and more. more periods, bring in the Pacific, lists for this or that specific formation. The customers have a demand for the company, and that is what companys try to do, satisfy the demands of thier customers. So dont wait around for the new onmes to stop, not any time soon.

"I would have liked to see all the Normandy campaign books available in one humongous hard cover book.
I get annoyed buying Cobra or Bloody Omaha and finding that I need D-Day to play either one."

Pont-l'Evêque is a lovely cheese from Normandy, if you would care for some to go with your whine.

Allen

Just lay your burden down.

Kudos to Battlefront for putting all the special rules for each nationality into a free downloadable PDF. The most common justification for the "gotta get 'em all" argument for the books is gone. If you're buying all the books now, it's because you just want to.

John, I wasn't aware of legislation requiring that gun owners be kept in locked boxes. Did they at least get discounted tickets?

- Bob

Kudos to Battlefront for putting all the special rules for each nationality into a free downloadable PDF.

Don't get carried away, they're not all done yet.