"French 12lb guns in the Peninsular War" Topic

I remember reading in numerous secondary sources that generally the heaviest artillery employed by the French in Spain was the 8lb gun. Did any 12lb guns make it over the Pyrenees? And if so, in which Corps were they deployed?

Thanks in advance

Dear Whirlwind
As far as I can tell, no Gribeauval 12-pdrs whether Spanish or French were employed in the field. They were reserved to Garrison duty. The artillery returns for Spain are rather sketchy at best.

The French siege train had some AnXI Long 12-pdrs, AnXI Short 24-pdrs though.

Stephen

Thank you Stephen, that is very useful. I had wondered if either the new Guard Artillery units in Madrid in 1808 had been equipped with them, or if the Guard had brought any when they arrived with Napoleon. If no-one is recorded as bringing them, that makes things easier.

As a matter of interest then, where were the 12pdrs between Friedland and the 1809 Danube campaign?

Regards

I remember reading somewhere, possibly Elting's "Swords Around the Throne," that the French decided not to take 12 lbs to Spain because of the roads. They replaced the corps battery guns with 8 lbs. The Grand Army in France and Germany retained the 12 lbs.

So, what were Sophia and the gang using here:
YouTube link

Whirlwind,

The 12-pounders were kept in Germany with Davout's Army of Germany. The returns are in Saski. Davout also retained the 8-pounders which were used during the campaign. That was the French preferred field piece for horse artillery.

The Imperial Guard still had Gribeauval 4-pounders with them as late as 1811, which is in Pigeard.

The Imperial Guard Artillerie a Pied also retained the 12-pounder for at least some of the gun companies. The Guard artillery became the army artillery reserve with the activation of the Foot Artillery Regiment in 1808.

Sincerely,
K

It was my initial understanding, I believe from Elting, that the French didn't take 12 pounders to Spain – but I doubt the roads were any worse in Spain than Russia or Poland [less mountainous perhaps] – but I have subsequently read sources that refer to the use of 12 pounders by the French. They might have been Spanish ordnance, and they may have sometimes been left behind in garrison if the prospective campaign theater would result in the passage of mountainous terrain – but I think the French had access to them. Sorry to be so anecdotal – but I'm at work, and don't have exact sources ready to hand.

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Ligniere,

If you have time, list the source material as it might be very helpful and could lead to a good discussion.

Sincerely,
K

10th Marines,
Let me take a look over the weekend, and I'll post early next week

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Thanks very much for the informative answers.

I wonder if I could re-phrase my question to you Kevin? I think that I'm misunderstanding your answer from my ignorance of this subject.

AFAIK, two separate groups of Imperial Guard artillery took part in the 1808 Spanish campaign. One group went with the Army of Observation(?!) which went into Spain before hostilities and in the Guard's case, were based around Madrid. This artillery accompanied the Fusiliers-Chasseurs (?) and took part in Medina de Rio Seco.

The second group accompanied Napoleon when he came to Spain in November 1808. This second group probably didn't see action, unless at the Somosierra and as the Retiro.

Have I got this right in outline? And which guns would the two groups have been equipped with?

Regards

It's possible that the references were to Spanish 12pdrs. A few were captured by the French after Medellin.

Rory Muir credits Marmont's army for the Salamanca campaign with having seven 12pdrs although he doesn't state there origin so they could well have been ex Spanish ones.

His opinion was that they were being held to form an Army reserve battery

Given that his overall examination of the two armies is very detailed I would be inclined to accept this.

The movie gun Sophia and gang were using was obviously too big. The piece in the CS Forester story "The Gun" that the film is loosely based on was an 18 pdr lost by one of the defeated Spanish armies.

"Battle Studies of the Peninsula" says that what 12 pounders the French brought were soon relegated to garrison duty due to lack of horses.

The number of draft animals needed to pull 12 pounders has always been what I've heard. You could pretty much pull three batteries of 8 pounders for the animals necessary to move two batteries of 12s.

"The movie gun Sophia and gang were using was obviously too big"

The was a gun in that movie? I never got past Sophia?

They don't make women like that anymore! :o)

The regulation horse team for a French 12-pounder was six, while for a 4-, 6-, or 8-pounder it was four. And one of the 12-pounder caissons per piece was also pulled by six horses. So, a French 12-pounder company had at least 24 more horses than the gun companies armed with the other ordnance.

In a French horse artillery company, however, all of the pieces were pulled by six horses.

Sincerely,
K

The Pride and the Passion (1957):

"Thirteen feet long it was, and two feet in diameter at the breech, and a foot at the muzzle. It was an eighteen-pounder bronze gun, of that handsome alloy which is still known as "gunmetal." Around the vent and forward along the barrel it was ornamented with blazonry and heraldric traceries, beautifully designed, and cast as part of the gun itself; it was evidently a gun which had had a mold made expressly for itself at the time of casting, and had clearly been intended as an ornament for some wealthy noble's castle. Round the muzzle, in boldly raised lettering, was a Latin inscription, a fragment of the liturgy of Nocturne -- "And our mouths shall show forth thy praise" -- The gun must have been one of a pair; the other must have borne the inscription "Open thou our lips …" "The Gun", C. S. Forester (1933).

As Trajanus points out, Rory Muir in his book Salamanca 1812, does state that Marmont had a reserve battery that included seven 12 pdrs [Chap 2, Armies and Generals, Page 24, and associated note 2 Figures, page 277]. From this note Muir's source appears to be Fortescue.
An online source, related to the battle of Talavera, suggests that Victor's I Corps had six 12 pdrs, whilst Sebastiani's IV Corps had an additional four 12 pdrs. There are no specific sources referenced for this information – but the gentleman responsible for the site, Jose Manuel Rodriguez Gomez, has clearly done invaluable research into the battle – the orders of battle that he includes upon his site appear to be updated regularly as, undoubtedly, he uncovers new research.

link

The Spanish fielded several 12 pdrs themselves at Talavera, two deployed on the Cerro de Medellin and four more in the Pajar de Vegara redoubt. Whether the French cannon were of French or Spanish origin who knows.

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