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"Organization for Soviet Sapper-Engineer Platoon" Topic


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quidveritas23 Dec 2009 3:59 p.m. PST

Painted one of the FOW Soviet Sapper-Engineer Platoons. They all have body armor. With the exception of the officer, they all have the PPSH / satchel charges, etc. (no flame throwers or any fancy stuff).

Like all my 15mm WWII figs, I am now mounting the infantry figs on washers and attaching the figs to the FOW bases using magnets.

Speaking in terms of skirmish or small unit organization (1:1), how would this unit be organized?

I'm guessing:

Platoon HQ -- LT, MSGT, four Assault Engineers (6 figs)

Three squads of: Sgt, seven Assault Engineers (8 figs each)

???

Thanks in advance.

mjc

aecurtis Fezian23 Dec 2009 5:01 p.m. PST

Pardon me for being pedantic, but it's what I do! These are *assault* (shturmoviy) engineer-sapper troops. They had that special designation.

You've probably got something pretty close to the organizational structure. But the platoons would not usually fight just as platoons, but would task-organize into assault groups, each *based* on about a platoon. Unless you read Russian, this won't help (and Google translation mauls it viciously):

link

…so let me try to make sense of the pertinent bit:

"At the storming of the city of Danzig in March 1945, 1st ShISBr prepared 30 assault groups. Each engineer assault group consisted of 4 shturmoviks [assault sappers] and 4 flamethrowers (including 2 spare). Within each of these groups was a "faustnik" assault group of 4 engineers (a squad leader and three "faustniks", one of whom had a special machine for throwing volleys). This machine was a purely domestic inventions and allowed you to simultaneously throw up to 10 "faustpatrony" [panzerfaust rounds; sorry, no further info!--AEC] A "faustnik" group was armed with 50-80 panzerfausts and 12 discs [magazines] for the submachineguns. For the transport of personnel and equipment each assault sapper team had one tank or self-propelled gun, which also conductedng fire support."

A little disorganized, and you have the term "group" meaning three different and distinct things; but let's try to make some sense of it. So an assault engineer-sapper brigade could form 30 assault groups; with 45 platoons in its five battalions, each group would be a platoon or more in strength. Each platoon, we can assume, would comprise three squads of about eight men each (the total platoon strength was 33), and for an assault mission, each squad would form a group equipped with a whopping four flamethrowers.

Now we know how many small arms were in the battalion (20 DP light MGs, 313 SMGs, 9 antitank rifles), but we don't have numbers of flamethrowers, so it's hard to tell if this is credible across the board: 360 flamethrowers in the brigade? Doesn't sound right. But there was certainly some allocation of flamethrowers.

Then in each group (platoon), there would a group (team) of four "faustniks". I don't know what to make of the volley-firing machine, or of the idea of four sappers carrying 50-80 panzerfausts! But there would be some number of panzerfausts, at any rate.

There's a photo in that article of an assault engineer-sapper squad that shows it with two DP light machineguns. But with only 20 in the battalion (just over two per platoon), those were doubtless parceled out as needed.

So Battlefront is somewhere on the right path in providing their "battalion" (actually only four platoons' worth) boxed set with a few DP light machineguns and some faustniki, and then telling you you can supplement these with antitank rifles, and flamethrowers (in separate platoons?) and Maxim HMGs, and mortars, etc.

If you're planning to run your platoon in a skirmish ruleset, it's kind of bare by itself. It surely needs at least a few flamethrowers and a "faustnik" team, and maybe a DP or two. Unfortunately, BF doesn't provide these outside the boxed set. But the additional figures don't *have* to be in body armor. A battalion only had 125 sets of armor for those 297 men in the line platoons, which sort of makes BF's saying they're *all* armored a bit of a hoot. So if you have some spare flamethrowers or DPs from other units, they could fill in. Scratchbuild three or four panzerfausts and load them onto the extra guys in the platoon HQ, and you have your "faustniks". Add a tank or SAU per squad in support, and there you go!

Hope that helps.

Allen

aecurtis Fezian24 Dec 2009 10:45 a.m. PST

Am I wrong? Do they include a couple of DPs in the platoon pack?

It took me two boxed "battalion" sets and (I think) three platoon packs to provide enough figures for the two-company battalion allowed in "River of Heroes" (which *should* have three companies). But I lost track of what was in the platoon packs.

Allen

quidveritas24 Dec 2009 11:43 a.m. PST

Looks to me like there is one officer and the rest are armed with the PPSH. Some have a big back pack and some are tossing a satchel charge but otherwise no small arms other than the PPSH.

mjc

aecurtis Fezian24 Dec 2009 12:23 p.m. PST

Huh. I went back and checked, and I wound up with six more DP gunners beyond those included in the boxed sets, so apparently I got two per platoon pack. If you need some spares, let me know. (I should end up with some extra faustniki, too, once BF replaces some badly-cast and missing ones from the second boxed set). Those would give you the "extras" that would help form a good assault group for a skirmish-level game.

Allen

quidveritas24 Dec 2009 2:32 p.m. PST

Hmm -- will take a look again -- don't have these in front of me right now.

I've got some DP teams (Pig figs) so that's not a problem. The faustniki will need some thought/work.

How are you making your PF's?

mjc

aecurtis Fezian24 Dec 2009 3:34 p.m. PST

I don't have to. The "battalion" boxed set comes with enough "faustnik" figures for the maximum allowed by the list. (Scroll down):

link

Allen

quidveritas24 Dec 2009 4:25 p.m. PST

Hmmm

Well I'm going to go with my old reliable Pig Figs (#105 Russian RPG + Grenades) Looks like two of the three poses have PF's.

Being not much of a FOW player, I've already got way more combat engineers than I need. Just not the right proportions.

Thanks for all your help -- it is appreciated.

mjc

THOMASTMCC26 Dec 2009 11:49 a.m. PST

try the yahoo TO&Es group too

link

aecurtis Fezian26 Dec 2009 12:22 p.m. PST

Really? Is there anything there on this subject?

Allen

donlowry26 Dec 2009 12:34 p.m. PST

Did they use captured German panzerfausts? Or did the Russians make copies? Or what?

quidveritas27 Dec 2009 9:53 a.m. PST

Undoubtedly the Panzerfausts were captured. There were plenty to go around for both sides.

mjc

aecurtis Fezian27 Dec 2009 1:33 p.m. PST

Again, from:

link

'From the end of 1944, extremely effective individual antitank weapons arrived in the German army in large numbers: "faustpatrony" and the rocket gun "panzershreck". These sample weapons did not go unnoticed in the Red Army. Trophy "faustpatrony" were ordered to be collected and transmitted to the engineering services of the fronts, which were distributed on the basis of their own past shortfalls. Most "faustpatrony" were given to the assault engineer brigades, which actively used them in the assault groups in the suppression of enemy firing points.'

The faustpatrone was the first and a common version of the panzerfaust, so it's no surprise the Sovuets referred to it as that, regardless of what versions they may have acquired:

link

Allen

THOMASTMCC28 Dec 2009 1:40 p.m. PST

to aecurtis , he can ask on the group someone might know its a only suggestion ..whats wrong with that ..

Wyatt the Odd Fezian28 Dec 2009 2:04 p.m. PST

To get ahead of the myth that is likely to be brought up by Downlowry's post, the Soviets did not copy the Panzerfaust. They certainly learned from it and made their own version but the RPG-1 is not a cloned Russian copy. The RPG-2 was a failure. (Recently covered (again) on the TO&Es list)

In answer to Allen's rhetorical snark, there was a discussion about Soviet sapper brigades in the TO&Es list in July of '08, but not specifically addressing MJC's question. I also checked the files and there's not a sapper-specific TO&E posted at the moment, but that just means no one's asked the question as Mark Bevis is usually pretty forthcoming. In any case, Allen summarized things up pretty well in his first post so I think you're set.

Wyatt

PS: There is no truth to the TO&Es Yahoogroup having the unofficial motto of "We're here for those TO&E emergencies when AECurtis is offline" grin

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