"Flags for French Ancien Regime" Topic

Hi Folks

Yet another flag query – this time French Ancien Regime.

I'm using a number of sources to try and get as complete a picture as possible of French regimental flags from the late 17th century up until the revolution. Two sources are near contemporary from the latter part of the period and most of the rest are authors interpretations taken from websites & books, in general I have tried to take only those that quote reasonably authoritative sources.

I am hitting problems that I didn't expect. I did expect a deal of confusion with the changing names of the regiments and their continually shifting seniority but this problem has me foxed.

I am finding a significant number of regiments' colours are described/illustrated as the exact reverse of each other between sources – as if the flag is flown from the opposite edge. In some cases, particularly where the design has more than 2 colours, the changes are even more complicated, with colours being in different places according to different sources.

My first guess was that the interpretations had been taken from illustrations where the flagstaff side was not made clear but the differences are not consistent, sometimes they are the same, sometimes reversed when two sources are compared.

Is it possible that the same design could have been used but with reversed colours, possibly a change when a regiment was re-formed or changed its Colonel ? Thus the regiment bore slightly different colours at different times. I know that this did happen with a few regiments, as it is documented, but I'd have expected something in the sources to say so if it was a common practice.

Does anybody have any clues, or sources that may point to a clue, as to why this disparity between sources is happening ?

Tony Hughes

Try to find the book from Charrié about 18th century flags.

It's THE french source for flags…
Hard to find.

I don't have it. Sorry.

About the french flags for Louis XIV period, it exists a book on Baccus site.

I have a few flags sources, if I can help you on some flags description, don't hesitate to ask me for a precise flag.

I know also that some sources had made mistakes about the way to draw french flags : I think to remember that colors are always given clockwise… Some sources didn't make that and so, colors are not on the good place.

Scanned and not easy to read, Louis XIV late 17c

link

Some SYW standards here

link

and here

link

link

link

link

link

link

You can look for the others yourself

here

link

You can also try Arnaud Bunel's excellent Vexillologie Militaire Européenne website here:

drapeaux.org/Accueil.htm

Scroll down, click on "France", then "Ancien Régime", then "Infanterie de Ligne", then select the regiment you wish. All of the regiments listed show the history and sometimes several standards from their date of creation until the Revolution, or their merger or disbandment.

For instance, if you select the German regiment Salm-Salm, you'll see that it was originally created as the Regiment Furstemberg in 1668 then went through 5 different name changes (proprietary colonels) between then and Salm-Salm in 1783, then became the 2-battalion 62nd Regiment de Ligne in 1791, then the 123rd and 124th demi-brigades in 1793. Eight different sets of colours are shown during this era. There is also a separate table of the new, post-revolution numbered regiments that picks up after Salm-Salm.

There are also several colours of the Maison Militaire du Roi. Overall, there are several "gaps" in the site as of yet, at least where the Ancien Régime is concerned, but it is an excellent resource.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

it would be helpfull to bing up such differences, the book by Lucien Mouilllard, reprinted by Nafziger books is quite good, for 1792 to 1804 Hollandern

Biggore?

Is that…errrr….kind of….an Irish Regiment?

Thanks for that folks but I actually don't need that many more sources of info, I have already looked at most of those and it is the differences between those sources that is the problem.

Cire… at least that tells me that someone else has noticed the problem I'm having. The info about clockwise may help as one of the most contemporary sources is textual rather than illustrations.

Von W – I'm only interested in pre-revolution stuff in this instance, but thanks. I didn't want to go into details but the most obvious 'fault' I did mention – the reversal of colours, if I can work out how and why that happens I can probably see some sort of rationale behind the differences.

Thanks for the links Connard – I have seen most but a couple are new, and possibly useful.

burlesonbill – funny, I'll have to look at that site again. I have been there and found nothing useful for the French regiments (by that I mean nothing to solve this problem) though, I'd agree it is a good source for the history that helps to sort out some of the rather strange alterations in name.

Really great response guys – and I do appreciate the help. I want to try and produce something that is as historically accurate (within reasonable limits) as I can. So much stuff is just churned out from 3rd & 4th hand sources and they repeat the errors without checking them. I know I can't avoid errors entirely but I'm trying to.

IIRC Rorbet Hall's book/cd on the infantry of Louis XIV states that the colors were ofen attached to the staff randomly. Therefore, if a color had red and yellow opposite quadrants in the field, the upper quandrant next to the staff might be yellow or it might be red, depending on how it was attached.

At least that's what I think he wrote. I could have "misremembered."

Is that…errrr….kind of….an Irish Regiment?

Yes, Mal. It was known as Colonel Faith's regiment before numbering by precedence became the rule.

To avoid msunderstanding – Mouillard is Ancien Regime, Hollander is covering the French Revolution.

Well it sounds as if Gildas Facit might have already got this, but I am surprised no one seems to have posted the link to the Mouillard Plates link in case someone else wants the reference

GildasFacit,

Please send me a PM at this adress :
fr.aubert at free.fr

I have a large collection of french 18th century flags ("Ancien régime") coming from a very long (more than 20 years) study made by a friend of mine.
This friend had compulsed all serious french sources and has found mistakes on Mouillard plates for exemple.
This study is really very serious !!!
Moreover, all flags are very well drawned with Adobe Illustrator (but also available in pdf).

Don't hesitate to ask me if you have some problems on specifical french infantry flags…
All my bests,
Fred

von W – sorry about that, my careless reading of your post – I missed the comma. I had downloaded some of the Mouillard plates a while back (thanks for the link Jermy, I'd lost that) and another source I've used seems to stick with those.

dbf – that seems a strange practice, considering the way most flags are made. Robert Hall is usually reliable on such tidbits though.

Part of my problem is that this isn't really a period I know a great deal about and some of the sources that may be obvious to you lot I don't know about so the suggestions are great. Another reason why I haven't bought that many books on the period – justifying the expense is OK but not the space they take up. I almost have to submit a request in triplicate, with references, for my dear wife to allow me to buy any more books.

Yeah, I need a new room for my books…

Gildasfacit,

If you send me your email adress, I'll send you the sources I have in pdf format : no problem for the place in your room ;-)
Only the place in your computer or on a CD-rom. ;-))

Fred

That's brilliant cire…

the e-mail is …

main <at> tinytintroops <dot> co <dot> uk

and thanks very much for that.

Tony

PM sent

I found an old French publication most useful: Mouillard, Les régiments sous Louis XV. Text and Illustrations (including flags and various names of regiments) are available in the net: link Have a look.