"What do the Asian painting services pay their workers?" Topic

Hello,
I've been doing model painting for a few years now and a recent long-term commission recently asked me if I could lower my prices (which are more than fair, I think) because he found a better deal from an Asian painting service (which I won't name here). I'm not exactly sure how to go about answering this question. The commission is pretty good, and I think I charge a fair price as now. If I go any lower I'll be losing money on my time. Which isn't a major problem, since I only do this for pocket change and since I like painting. Anyways, he isn't the first commission I've had that has given me similar ultimatums. I was wondering if any other European or American painters/ painting services have had this problem, and how they've coped with it. While I'm on the topic, I'd like to reiterate the question in the subject line here.
regards,
Zach

I don't run a miniatures painting service, but as a graphic artist and promotional materials supplier, I do run into similar problems.

First off, if you enjoy painting figures and you think your price is fair, then that should be the end of things.

However, for your own edification, you can do a little research to find out what others in your region charge so you'll know whether you're high or low – and then you can adjust if you think that's necessary.

You will need to look at your quality compared to others with an objective eye. If you're delivering wargaming quality at premium prices, then there may be room for adjustment.

If you let yourself get ground down you will start resenting having to paint these figures and you won't do nearly as good a job. Your time is worth something.

You are saving your customer the time, hassle, expense and risk of shipping miniatures to and from Bangladesh (or the like). If you factor those into the price, you may find that you're not too far off.

I've dropped customers – including a full-time job – when it cost more to do the work than it was worth. Yes, my own company was making more than I was earning at a newspaper. That also went for customers who became too much of a hassle to deal with and they were actually affecting my home life.

Wyatt

What they pay their workers is really not relevant, as their masters will surely tell you. Wat impacts on you is their rates.

In addition to Wyatt's points, you may be able to tell your potential customers that your work is well researched and that they do not have to prescribe every detail (complete with images or samples) to ensure that you get it right. That's worth something. But if you are interested, look at how many offshore painting service operators come to TMP asking for information in order to paint their commissions! (and they get their answers free…)

Allen

Well Zach, I haven't had exactly that experience but I'm fairly certain I have lost at least one large commission to an Asian competitor.

I paint commissions as a significant part of my income, not as a supplement to my hobby budget or 'pocket change' and I find that people who do a bit of painting 'on the side' are far more competition than the Asian painters.

They don't have the overheads a business has and many of them are possibly not as diligent in dealing with customers as you are – and that often means that customers who have been disappointed by them tend to be cautious & even suspicious when dealing with me.

I have a price and I stick to that, customers then have the choice to deal with me or go elsewhere. I quite understand people wanting value for their money and, if they feel a 'hobby' painter or an Asian painting service offers a better deal than I do, or meets their needs better, then I wish them well and some come back later to say that they had a good experience.

Some however do not and I have picked up a few re-paint jobs and completing unfinished jobs from that source.

I have a standard that I set, both in level of service and quality of work. I will not fall below that standard in either respect. I'm sure that makes me more expensive and causes me to lose custom but I accept that as a necessary result of the way I have chosen to run my business. I might add that I have never had an empty order book in the 3 years I have run my service, so I'm doing something right.

I don't remember whether it was on this forum or not but one of the Asian services did explain that he not only paid his staff well in local terms but also gave other benefits such that he was considered favourably by the local business community in terms of working conditions.

If a business is properly run it need not exploit workers in less developed countries to be a success.

Yes it was Neil at RBP if memory serves, free refreshments at work I think..

Even galley slaves got refreshments!

"Your eyes are full of hate, forty-one. That's good."

Allen

I mainly do 54mm and sell on ebay. It's easier in as much as 'that's the bottomline, if you don't like it, don't bid" <chuckle> I've done a few comissions (mainly for an Australian) but prefer to freelance as it doesn't burn me out. Then, again, it's for wargame money and I don't rely on it for income.

Paul

I've tried a couple of the foreign painting services and have been disappointed both times. Both had very long delays with original delivery times stated of 6 weeks and actual delivery times closer to 6 months.

In both cases the painting quality was good but the paint jobs were not what I asked for. Both lots were SYW 15mm figures and in the end I settled for wrong facings and repainted them myself rather than wait another '6 weeks' for things to be corrected.

I'm pretty much done with the overseas services unless I am buying something already completed that I can see pictures of in advance. Even then I am skeptical because some of these painting services use the same pictures over and over again on auction sites but paint up the figs after receiving an order.

Not sure if it helps answer your question or not but I am in the IT field and our company internally charges $80 USD per hour for home office IT services and $17 USD per hour for our India office services. This includes benefits, etc. So you might be able to say about 1/5 of the cost for labor, although I don't know how that would translate from IT to figure painting. Just an interesting bit of info.

This might get some danders up but..
I look at it this way:

How much is it going to cost me on a per-figure basis to have them shipped both ways and painted?

I have recently received an order from an "asian" painting service. The per-unit (15mm figures) total cost, including figure purchase, shipping and painting to an above basic standard (include your own pictures and narratives) was $1.05 USD each. And I received the figures back in 3 months.

The commission was in excess of 1,100 figures. So volume definately helps.

If a US company can match that, I'll happily use them. I've yet to see one that would even consider such a rate or turnaround.

Its supposedly a free market. So charge what you want. There are plenty of people who are not willing to ship their figures off to asia. Demand will determine whether you're overpriced.

Well, if it gives you any idea of costs, my brother went to visit a friend living in Thailand and he could eat three meals a day at restaurants for about $5. USD I would bet they're getting paid somewhat less than $50 USD per day – probably $25 USD to $35 USD per day. Maybe even less. A friend of mine lives in Sri Lanka – I could ask the going wages in the country. To give you an idea, she (a Canadian) and her Sri Lankan husband do IT work – iPhone apps development and such. A local company offered him $5/hr to do a job for them and told him it was good money! He laughed at them, knowing the true value of his work.

Sundance is on the right track. Don't compare wages in Southwest and Southeast Asia to wages in the West. When I was visiting the Philippines with my wife I could feed her, her sis, her two cousins, and myself for under 20$ in a nice resto-bar on the shore in C. de O. I later read that $125 USD could feed a family of five for a month if you only buy groceries in the markets, etc. I'm sure that Thailand and Sri Lanka are similar. Heck I plan on retiring there someday.

Some gamers will go with the best painting serive for results (finished product)

Some will go for the cheapest painting seervice after all factors are considered.

It really does not matter if the person who owns the serive is painting them himself or if he is hiring someone.

The first company that I came across who used out of the USA labor force was in 1985. Little has changed since then.

I just got a note back from my friend over there. Her husband actually knows a guy who runs a service there, but he's US educated. She said a painter working full-time for one of these services could probably expect to be paid $80 USD to $200 USD per month. (Based on some of the ads I've seen, I think they typically hire young to middle aged women to paint for them and train them.)

I think that nicely explains why they can paint 15s for $1 USD per fig while in the US you can't touch 'em for less than $2 USD or $2.50.

Sundance,

That might seem like low wages to us, but one would have to check to see what the average local wage was, and also what the level of unemployment was in that community.

Cheers,

Glynn

Oh, I know it, Glynn. That's probably pretty typical wages for that part of the world. :o)

Hmmmmm………….then I must be too cheap. I was painting 15's for a dollar twenty five per figure. You provide the figure. Of course, I only paint up stuff for sale at my store now.

I believe that the minimum hassle and knowledge provided by many of the US painters makes up for complete lack in the Asian sites. I have uniform detail info on pretty much any war. You won't get the wrong color with me.

But, you pay your money and make your choices.

Thanks,

John

"What do the Asian painting services pay their workers?"
Obviously too much, as I still can't afford the $5.5 USD per 28mm mini that DPS charge.

As someone who is facing outsourcing in the industry of my day job, I understand the concern. My clients know they can get cheaper services elsewhere, even in the U.S. What sets us apart is the level of service we offer. Of course, language issues, turnaround times and quality are all easily addressed. However, value can be familiarity with the periods, dress and interests of your clients. Personally, I pay people for that expertise. You know you're good when clients use the cheaper services, come to you to fix them, and are even grateful despite paying more.

Best,
Steve
Cavalcade Wargames
cavalcadewargames.com
nycjadie.wordpress.com

It sounds like a simple question but the answer is likely to be more complicated. We have been operating in Thailand now for 6 years, our staff levels have fluctuated between 9 and 26. We have a European manager who is salaried and receives bonus payments based on targets and production. he has a Thai admin assistant who deals with the mountain of paperwork arising from a company based here.

The painters and basers were originally paid on a piecework basis, but we found that this had a detrimental impact on quality so we switched to a salary plus production bonus basis. All salaries are higher than the national minimum wage, which is pretty pitiful anyway ( my girlfriends aunt and cousin work as labourers on a building site and earn 250 baht an 8 hour day or around $7).

Some of our painters regularly earn more than the manager depending on their output and quality maintainance. We also try to be flexible in our working arrangements and take on part time workers and a few home workers.

On top of salaries we have to pay tax and the Thai Social fund for all our employees. Property rental is not high nor is power supply, but we do have to pay out regular donations to various officials to prevent unexplained delays in shipments etc.

We also regularly pay medical expenses for our workers and their families, usually this is not expensive maybe $2-30 and worth it for staff loyalty. We hit some hard times last year with orders drying up and we had to put staff on reduced hours, but most of them stuck with us, and those that found other jobs have now returned.

The other thing to be born in mind is touched on above, the cost of living and as importantly the expectations of people out of life is nowhere near as high as in the West. Kids love Playstation games, but they do not expect to own their own console. If they want new clothes or special treats they are more than willing to go and work to raise the money.

Food is very cheap in comparison with Western diet and much more healthy. I bought dinner for four a couple of nights ago with appetisers, 6 main dishes, fruit and ice cream to finish with beers and soft drinks the whole lot was 635 baht with 40 to the dollar and 50 to the pound. Buying family food from the market is much cheaper, a grilled whole fish 50 baht, a kilo of cooked rice 20 baht, a basket full of vegetables and fruit 50 baht, beer 30 for half a litre.

My girlfriend rents a two bedroom apartment for 1200 baht a month, a friend has a 3 bedroom house at 4000pm. I hope this gives some sort of idea of the difference in the cost of living out here.

There are quite a few problems in running a company in the East that may influence some of the comments above. Holidays come thick and fast, and after a festival you can come into an empty shop. You might feel angry but you cannot show it, that will mean that you loose face, so you have to put up with it and encourage higher production to make up for lost time. Family commitments can see your workforce slashed as they are called to help with the rice harvest, usually in the middle of some large order.

Petty bureaucrats will make life a misery just for the sake of it. The post office and shippers must enjoy throwing figure shipments around the room, and I think that is where most breakages happen. All in all the problems of running a business, at least in Thailand, are not so simple as you may think. Perhaps Sri Lanka, Hong Kong and Bangla Desh suffer less of these problems but I am sure some will apply.