"Okay, so where are they???" Topic

*NJH: You can't go wrong in a Mustang. I test drove the Bullitt, liked it, but they don't make them in red.

I know, it was either black or forest green (mine is forest green). I like the car because of the lack of emblems. If you didn't know what the car was, you wouldn't give it a second look. I've had it since June and I've put on 2000 miles. I'm seriously thinking of throwing a Roush blower on it.

Did you see the new 2011 Mustangs with the 5.0? 412 horse and 25 mpg highway. Check it out on You Tube.

Sorry for going so off topic.

That's ok, you can talk about muscle cars anywhere and anytime IMO.

My first car was a 1970 Chevelle SS with a 396 bored out to a 402, that thing passed everything but the gas station, man did I love that car.

After that I bought a Dodge Challenger with a 318 in white like the one from Vanishing Point, much better on the gas, but it still could get up and go………….

Double G: Knowledge about your past cars changes my opinion of you a little. I had taken you for a Volkswagen Jetta kind of guy. 8-)

Double G – Now we're going back!!

I had a 65 Gran Sport, 69 GTO, a 68 GTO, a brand new 1986 Mustang GT and now the Bullitt. My one brother has a 40th anniversary Vette (does mid 12s) and the other brother had a 1996 ZR1 (did low 11s). We're in the process of restoring the ZR1 now – when he left us the ZR, it had a blown rear and 3rd gear. I took the ZR out a few weeks ago – it has only 25k miles on it!

Wow, thanks for the memories! This really brought a smile to my face!

BTCTerrainman, at least it was not something lame like a Miata.

Yes, it could have been an AMC Pacer.

My first car was an Alfa Romeo Spider, which you will surely agree was the thinking person's Miata. Or else the poor man's E type.

LIG; nothing like a muscle car.

Nothing.

Terrainman; you're lucky I like you (that and you're close to a foot taller than me)……………plus you make some kick azz terrain; I picture you in high school tooling around in gremlin, what a sweet ride that must have been with the tricked out chrome rims, headers, spoiler on the back, a cowl induction hood so you could go from 0 to 60 in about 10 minutes…………

I do have a miata there flicker; I keep it in my trunk in case my real vehicle dies on me in the middle of nowhere………….

I replaced the lame factory aces in a Datsun 240Z (It would dog in tight turns) and dropped in a Holley 4-barrel. The result? 0 – 60 in seven seconds. Too bad the car was built with recycled steel and rusted out in Chicago winters.

LMAO Double G!

The car you describe was actually my brothers except it was a Vega. Pretty amazing machine as his was made into a muscle car. Too much power though, because he ultimately got into trouble with it.

I was much too practical and rode around in a Buick Skylark. I was into impressing the girls in those days! My favorite thing about it back then is that it was cheap.

Hey now, it's not just a Vega; it's a CHEVY Vega with it's aluminum block engine, they made quite a few of those from 71 through 77 (I think it had a production run during that time, maybe longer), so don't sell that baby short…………..

All this talk to american "muscle cars"

why such low HP with those huge engines?

"OK, from now on I want to know exactly how much was paid for which games at any given con.

I am with Paint By Numbers. I can say that we paid for no games at FALL-IN! 2009, I refused to do so. I will not be paying for any games in 2010 either. I cant speak to the other two conventions though…"

NDSM GMs are not paid a stipend (cash) so far as I know. They did get the free hotel room boondoggle back in the day and it was charged against a convention's budget, like it or not.

I have no idea what the situation is these days. I dropped NDSM from the Cold Wars program I think back in 06 (no offense to them, I just saw it as a cost/benefit thing), and they moved over to Fall In!. They may still get free rooms, hard to say. I can't imagine FI! having that kind of budget, though-- that's our leanest program in term of cost.

(that's opinion, not based on any recent knowledge)

V/R

Walt

Double G-

I am one of those that wanted the convention in Baltimore because of the potential collaboration we could have with Games Workshop. I find it interesting that GW can have one of the most successful gaming conventions in Baltimore, but HMGS cannot. Also, Baltimore is very cheap to fly to and has reasonable rental car rates. When I go to Cold Wars, I fly to Baltimore and drive to Lancaster. Philadelphia flights are more expensive. Also, as someone that went to school in around King of Prussia--driving there from the airport or downtown is quite a chore. I honestly would prefer to drive from Baltimore to Lancaster than from the Philly airport to King of Prussia. That is my personal perspective, but I understand that others may be quite happy with the King of Prussia location as many seemed to be happy with Lancaster.

IMHO, if GW really wants to "collaborate" with HMGSE on a convention, they need to pony up some cash to pay for it, regardless of where it is held. Instead, it appeared that at the BCC HMGSE was going to have more liability by having GW part of the act for not much in return.

Comparing what GW hosts for a day or two to what HMGSE does at Historicon (or its other conventions) over several days is apples to oranges for a number of reasons: 1) HMGSE is a local non-profit with relatively limited funds; GW is a multi-national corporataion with potentially millions of $$$ to play with. 2) HMGSE is a volunteer-driven organization; GW has full-time staff to coordinate events and for advertising (through their magazine, etc.). 3) HMGSE has no physical "offices", just BoD members' personal phones and residences from which to conduct business; GW has offices within 30 minutes of the BCC.

The events that GW has run are usually one/two-day affairs that cater to their customers alone. It's all GW, all the time. Heck, even things produced/controlled by them that don't fall into their "mainstream" production centers such as Warhammer historicals, Forge World, and their Archived stuff aren't a part of the show – just the new 40K and WHFB stuff, with maybe a bone thrown to their current second-tier games.

If GW were truly interested in working with us, either they'd be doing exactly the same thing at Valley Forge, or they would have offered up some cash to offset the increased costs of running the thing. I am aware of neither, but perhaps someone in the know will respond on this point.

I don't know what the current situation is with GW and conventions, but for what it's worth, a few years ago, GW imposed several "requirements" upon its participation in any non-GW convention. These first came up when I was still an undergrad, during the 1990s, when we were trying to lure GW to our anime and gaming themed convention. But they came up again with discussions for bigger organizations, venues, and conventions not terribly long ago (say five or so odd years).

Not quoting precisely here, but among other things, GW had the following "conditions".

- Had to be x number of feet away from products of competing companies. If possible, not in the same area at all.

- Had to be x number of feet away from historical gaming. If possible, not in the same area at all.

- Had to be allocated x number of tables and space on the gaming floor for the duration of the convention.

- Official GW games were to be prominently displayed in any convention program, with their own heading, descriptive text, etc.

- Required all GW games and tournaments to meet official GW standards. (So, for example, if a guy wanted to run a Pre-Heresy themed scenario with his Space Marines, he'd have to use GW rules, and theoretically meet official GW army list requirements. If a tournament was running, it'd have to be run by GW standards, etc.)

- X amount of GW product was to be represented in the dealer area and "prominently displayed".

I believe there were other requirements, but I'm very foggy on them now. That said, when you consider the above, they aren't (or at least weren't) necessarily willing to "play along like everybody else." I seem to recall that was part of the reason for the less than spectacular reception to their showing at Timonium.

Oh, and one other thing. In all my years of running games at HMGS conventions, I -never- received a free room, or any compensation, nor did any of my colleagues. Part of my major problem with the "Next Level" junta is that for years they pushed (and so far as I know, continue to push) the idea that "big name GMs" or, "Quality GMs" should be given preferential treatment to other game masters.

Being "Big Name" or "Quality" basically seemed to revolve around being somebody who knew somebody else in the "Next Level" crowd. Which meant that many very good games I saw put on over the years (including some of my own, but certainly not in the majority) never stood a chance.

-A.

GW always has a big presence at the local historical convention here, Hotlead, and I don't believe they make any such demands.

hotlead.ca

They seem like nice guys and play their games and then wander over and play in some of the historical games. Works out rather well, I'd say.

Ralph

"I have no idea what the situation is these days. I dropped NDSM from the Cold Wars program I think back in 06 (no offense to them, I just saw it as a cost/benefit thing), and they moved over to Fall In!. They may still get free rooms, hard to say. I can't imagine FI! having that kind of budget, though-- that's our leanest program in term of cost. "

Hey Walt,

Pete wanted me to pay for rooms for them for FI. I wasnt biting, I told him they could have GM badges like all other GM's. He ended up giving them rooms from the education budget. I wasnt going to pay for them from my budget, I believe if you pay a GM, you have to pay ALL GM's…

Andy

As someone who has put on a lot of games over the years, I'm okay if a convention director wants to bring in a special game, especially if it supports a theme. If he is willing to pay for it, and it runs a whole lot of times, then it really isn't like most other games anyway, as a lot more should be expected from it, both in quality and quantity. But this should be the exception, not the norm, and I don't think it happens much anyway.

I never really got the whole NSDM thing, as it seemed to much like my work to me. I would also say that as an often game judge, I never gave it a second look either. Fine if you liked it, but not my cup of tea, nor worthy of a GM award – as it was more roll playing anyway.

FirstVarty:

GW offers lots of potential market to us. Frankly, we do not offer them much besides promotion of their historical lines which is just a niche product for them. It is HMGS that needs to get GW interested. For example, we could propose to run a Warhammer Historical section at their Game Day. I think it is pretty cavalier for HMGS to only try to work with GW if they come to us and are willing to pay us money for the "privilege" of participating in our conventions. I believe that we had them run games at one convention when Mike Constantino was with HMGS-East. I do want to give the HMGS leadership credit for trying Baltimore several times. My biggest stratetic critique of the King of Prussia site is that I do not see any clear strategic logic for it except that "we can't be at the Host". While I disagree with this logic, it seems that a significant, perhaps a majority, of the HMGS-East membership is "ok" with that explanation. Frankly, I would have much rather preferred Gettysburg as a location

Frankly, I would have much rather preferred Gettysburg as a location

Hey I like Gettysburg as much as the next guy. But the cost issues made the HMGS move Fall-In to Lancaster. Plus the Eisenhower had it's hands full accommodating the smallest of the HMGS conventions. Could it handle Historicon? Could it handle Historicon in July? Doubtful.

Ralph

Hi Ralph:

I agree. Wishful thinking on Eisenhower. In regards to the Host, I really favored moving out to a better facility, but in retrospect, I had found "remedies" for the Host's shortcommings. For example, Last Cold Wars, I stayed at a very nice and affordable bed and breakfast close to the Host. Also, discovered some nice local family restaurants as well. Not sure that King of Prussia will have that sort of option.

I agree. Wishful thinking on Eisenhower. In regards to the Host, I really favored moving out to a better facility, but in retrospect, I had found "remedies" for the Host's shortcommings. For example, Last Cold Wars, I stayed at a very nice and affordable bed and breakfast close to the Host. Also, discovered some nice local family restaurants as well. Not sure that King of Prussia will have that sort of option.

That's what I didn't get. A lot of complaints I heard were from people who stay at the Host. I never did and didn't have one bad trip there. Yea, there were problems with the air conditioning one year I was there. Yea, the toilet overflowed another year. Yes, the food was terrible most of the time. But that is why I stayed at a great hotel 5 minutes away, ate at local restaurants that ran from good to great (thank you Garmin!), and we came prepared to each day of gaming (bottled water, Axe body spray, snacks, and comfortable clothing).

We're supposed to be wargamers – adapt and overcome.

Oh, and Nidaron, I've been doing research on KoP and found some pretty good eats. Most centered around the KoP Mall. They have Ruth's Chris Steakhouse (pricey but the best steak you'll ever eat), a Hooters, an Irish Pub, Cheesecake Factory, various Asian places including Korean and Indian, Legal Seafood, and even a local deli right across from the convention center. I can't attest to the quality of the local places but there certainly is variety.

Just think about that first brave man that ate Hall-Pig at the Host or ventured to Lapp's in Lancaster. They didn't know what they were getting into but they tried it darnit! And it's our turn to be adventurous. (As long as I don't get as sick as I did 2 years ago from the local Applebees in Lancaster. Vomiting in the hotel room bathroom and missing a night of gaming really sucked.)

Hi Praetorian Historian:

I was thinking that Lancaster has small, mom and pop family restaurants and bed and breakfast places. King of Prussia has all the amenities of most well-off suburbs--including the chain restaurants you list.

and we came prepared to each day of gaming (bottled water, Axe body spray, snacks, and comfortable clothing).

I wonder if the advertising industry would consider a typical Axe body spray commercial, but set at Historicon. You know, skinny gaming nerd crushed at the flea market in the Lampeter room. He sprays himself…..a lo and behold….he is attacked by a warband of buxom young women.

Ralph

Nidaron, have you done a search on Google for restaurants in KoP? They have some mom and pop restaurants it seems. As for family style, they have an Italian place called Maggiano's that does that. I was never fond of Amish family style so we always ate at chain restaurants or the Chinese buffet down the road from the Host. Though we did have hall pig on Saturday night last time and it wasn't that bad.

CRHKREBS, maybe it's just me, but I dont see many buxom young wome at miniatures conventions….. though it would be a welcome change from what I do normally see…..=)
I do think you are on to something though with the commercial idea…. the guy who used to own my local gaming store kept a can of Lysol behind the counter and when one of those soapdodgers started smelling or walked in the door stinking, he would spray them with it….. it didnt get them attacked by buxom young women, but it made me laugh at them

SMP Press I would like to see some contracts. Any contracts. How old would they now be? The problem is once the contract's signed it's a done deal for all practical purposes and complaining about it does no good, but the costs involved can and should be brought up in a mature discussion on what was spent and why. The costs should included in our financial reports. Otherwise how will we know what was spent for comp rooms, meals, cake and beer, our guarantees to the venue and hotels etc? I think the point is regarding spending, the BOD seemed to have been on hiatus regarding economy and profits and more about spending to grow no matter what the cost apparently. That kind of info is important and should be made available. In other words it is the other side of the story that has been glossed over. Good for the current BOD if they change that trend and really become open in fiscal matters as soon as is practical, but timely as well.

I wonder if the advertising industry would consider a typical Axe body spray commercial, but set at Historicon. You know, skinny gaming nerd crushed at the flea market in the Lampeter room. He sprays himself…..a lo and behold….he is attacked by a warband of buxom young women.

Hahaha, I don't know how I missed this post. I spray the Axe more for my own sensibilities than 'hoping to attract a mate.' Some of those rooms got really rank and I just needed to put that on to smell something else besides people who didn't put on enough deodorant.

Why can't Historicon have the booth babes like at other conventions? (If you don't know what I am talking about, Google Image Search – "booth babes.") I can see it now…Eureka having the Viking Girls in skimpy leather thongs and bras with horned helmets. Belle & Blade with girls in tight, liberally cut Nazi and Confederate uniforms. Battlefield Terrain Concepts with some bikini babes in ghillie suits. Historicon attendance will increase by 50% guaranteed.

but I dont see many buxom young wome at miniatures conventions….. though it would be a welcome change from what I do normally see…

that would be "buxom" middle-aged males.

but the costs involved can and should be brought up in a mature discussion on what was spent and why. The costs should included in our financial reports. Otherwise how will we know what was spent for comp rooms, meals, cake and beer, our guarantees to the venue and hotels etc?

mature? with HMGS members about BoD/Convention related topics? What fantasy land are you living in?

It seems to me, most "members" really don't care if the Duke is comped a free room or travel expenses, or if Pete makes sure some guys are given rooms for their games. Some do, and some are concerned about equitable treatment or setting precedents BUT the vast majority are blissful in their ignorance and couldn't be bothered to even contemplate or take a position on a policy.

I am not speaking against those who want to examine the situation from doing so.

Wouldn't a ghillie suit defeat the purpose of having a bikini babe in it?

Wouldn't a ghillie suit defeat the purpose of having a bikini babe in it?

Yea, I was thinking of the older ones where it was just like netting with the tags of camo material attached to it randomly. The modern ones make you "Swamp Thing."

I can see it now…Eureka having the Viking Girls in skimpy leather thongs and bras with horned helmets. Belle & Blade with girls in tight, liberally cut Nazi and Confederate uniforms. Battlefield Terrain Concepts with some bikini babes in ghillie suits. Historicon attendance will increase by 50% guaranteed.

Maybe this is the "next level" we should be considering.

you have my full support CrhKrebs. this is just what is needed to take Historicon to the next level. Though if our wives found out, I doubt attendance would rise…more likely drop off as I dont see my wife being happy about that sort of thing. =)

Andy and Walt,

My respect for both of you only grows now that I hear about free rooms for NSDM GMs.

Nothing against NSDM. They put plenty of effort into their events over the years. I always stopped by to look at them.

But when you start giving out free rooms to some GMs at HMGS conventions and not others, you are asking for trouble. I can think of plenty of worthy events over the years that I would have ranked higher than the NSDM program.
Free GM badges is enough.

Like myself, I doubt most GMs were aware of the "free rooms for select GMs" practices of the past. When they start to hear about it, some are not going to be happy.

Unless you do it for all GMs, like Origins, you shouldn't do it for any.

OK, so as an ignorant sometime GM at HMGS-East conventions let me get this straight.

1. Some select GMs are compensated with free hotel rooms?
2. HMGS-East compensated GMs of NSDM which appears to be a "Fantasy Role Playing Game?" or to be nice about it I guess it's more of an "Alternative Universe Role Playing Game?" REALLY? It doesn't even meet the "H" or the "M" of the organization acronym, as far as I know.

To go off topic even more…

Are tournament organizers given free rooms for their efforts? At least they support more gamers than NDSM and some of the big name games so I would suspect they do to?

Unless you do it for all GMs, like Origins, you shouldn't do it for any.

Quoted for truth.

My take on it is that no one and I repeat no one should get free hotel rooms at conventions. Period.

I told you some GMs were going to be mad when they found out. I can't blame them. I'm not exactly happy myself.

As word starts to get around, this will only get worse. Plus, it's not as if the issue has gone away. I have little doubt that there are plans to feature certain games, and GMs, for Historicon 2010. What those added costs will be is anyone's guess.

Should make for another interesting issue to discuss at Cold Wars.

Sir William 07 Jan 2010 5:21 a.m. PST wrote:
OK, so as an ignorant sometime GM at HMGS-East conventions let me get this straight.

1. Some select GMs are compensated with free hotel rooms?
2. HMGS-East compensated GMs of NSDM which appears to be a "Fantasy Role Playing Game?" or to be nice about it I guess it's more of an "Alternative Universe Role Playing Game?" REALLY? It doesn't even meet the "H" or the "M" of the organization acronym, as far as I know.

To go off topic even more…

Are tournament organizers given free rooms for their efforts? At least they support more gamers than NDSM and some of the big name games so I would suspect they do to?

I do not have time right now to address one and two but will come back to add some light to the issue.

Tournament organizers get free pass just like regular GM I passed that on the board but no-one ever said thanks ;-0

The Tourament LNO (currently Scott Holder) does get a room and is considered adjunct staff. I also put that in effect and asked Scott to continue that roll. He never said thanks either by the way.

VR
James Mattes

"The Tourament LNO (currently Scott Holder) does get a room and is considered adjunct staff."

Not at FALL-IN!, atleast not until I get fired…

I give up. Nobody's listening here or on the board site.

True Scot does not attend Fall In. I should have said at Hcon and Cold Wars.
VR
James Mattes

Convention Directors have discretion to build things into their budget, with approval from the board. Some do, some don't as far as supporting selected games, and it has varied over the years. But we are not talking about more games being supported than fingers on your hand, and you probably don't need the thumb, pinky, and index finger at any given con.

I don't get the NDSM thing, but apparently others do. I have no idea if it has the same following every con, or new people. Not my cup of tea, as if I were a CD I would at least select a game that supports the con theme, but expect it to run darned near around the clock. I think the last con to support a number of games was at Timonium, but that horse was long ago beat to death, and best left buried.

vonLoudon,

I'm not so sure. We may find out at Cold Wars (and come the next HMGS election) whether anyone is listening. Some people who paid little attention to the inner workings of HMGS and the conventions, myself included, at least seem to be paying more attention. Then again, if moving Historicon twice and a $60K loss (and counting) in one fiscal year doesn't get your attention, nothing will.

the NSDM team also puts on a few lectures and such not just their game.

to me it is the whole slippery slope thing. if nsdm gets something, do the gettysburgh guys who ran the big stalingrad game multiple times at fallin get anything? how about the Hawks etc etc

larry