"Okay, so where are they???" Topic

" I'm going to Valley Forge, are you?"

Ralph;
Nope.

I posted my reasons for not going to Valley Forge in another post, but I'll reiterate them here for you.

1: Baltimore was easier for us to get to, (major transportation hub), plus the fact that we were actually going by train. My lady had never done a train trip cross country and we were going to make an adventure out of it.

2: Baltimore was actually cheaper for us to do in terms of travel, than Valley Forge.

3: Due to the fact that I am currently layed off, we can only make two cons this year, so it's Origins and Gen-Con for us.

4: My lady was looking forward to Historicon at Baltmiore. She's never been to an HMGS convention and we were going to make a longer vacation of it, (See Ft. McHenry, Constellation, Poes Grave, and then travel to DC and do the touristy things), but all the arguing about the BCC soured her on attending. As of two weeks ago, her response was "I don't even want to go to this thing now…"

5: Neither of us are looking forward to having to take a 45 min – 1 hr trip by Shuttle bus (if the traffic is agreeable), to get from Philly to VF.
And we don't feel like driving the 14-16 hours to get there. We're going to be doing those long distance drives quite a bit from 2011-2015 for the 150th…

6: While not knowing what/how the conditions are at VFCC, I do know that we both enjoyed Origins, and that there is a great German Restaraunt nearby that we love.

7: And finally, I've been requested to assist with next years Morgans Crossing reenactments which falls in July. 2010 is the first year in a loooooong time that they are having the Kentucky and Indiana events the same year…

So theres my reasons for not going with the main points being 4, 1, and 7…

Ok, if VF is solidified as it seems it is then there must be cost figures. Why aren't these being released? Also, at least a status report on BCC, even if it is just, "we are still trying to wiggle out of the contract and dont know what the cost will be yet."

This is starting to look like more, "let's just throw something out there and everyone should accept it."

How about some numbers? Some hard info, even if not totally complete.

HMGS management has forfeited trust and credibility, regardless of what any individual currently on the board has done. If they are serious about restoring it they should start pouring out info.

Ok, if VF is solidified as it seems it is then there must be cost figures. Why aren't these being released? Also, at least a status report on BCC, even if it is just, "we are still trying to wiggle out of the contract and dont know what the cost will be yet."

umm
they did say exactly that…of course people complained about that too

larry

HMGS management has forfeited trust and credibility, regardless of what any individual currently on the board has done. If they are serious about restoring it they should start pouring out info.

The Board may not yet be in a position to pour out information. Here are points to be considered:

1) This is the first time they're facing a situation like this.

3) There are new people on the board who may not have been aware of everything that took place before they got on the board.

2) Someone really needs to sit down and look at the full chain of events. All the facts may not be available yet. I know when I work on an issue, I can normally get a "Reason for Outage" document out pretty quickly. To do an entire "Root Cause Analysis" takes a bit longer and some detective work on my part.

Personally, I think the BoD needs to get nudged so they know this incident will not be forgotten or swept under the rug. However, we also need to allow them time to understand what happened and come up with an explanation that doesn't look like a witch hunt. This is walking a fine line.

Double G you got it all wrong. There were those who were demanding to move to a location that provided a wonderful showcase for Historicon. Then there were others who were demanding the convention remain with mediocrity. Weren't you one of the ones demanding to stay at the Host?

Now I'm not going because I have no desire to spend all that travel money for mediocrity. However, I know you'll have fun there.

Merry Christmas

Rich

PS: Maybe I'll go slumming next year.

There were those who were demanding to move to a location that provided a wonderful showcase for Historicon

But at what cost? Did you see the numbers we would have to come up with to remain at Baltimore?

Sure – everyone wants to drive in the new Shelby Super Snake. Most have to settle for the Mustang GT.

BTW – MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Yes Rich, I saw no need to move the convention from the host.

None.

This is a teeshirt crowd, not a tea and crumpets crowd.

Have fun kayaking, we'll all miss you at the convention………………..

I thought I was against the move to the BCC because it was a stupid and ill-timed idea.

Now I'm told it is because I'm demanding mediocrity of my hobby and that I enjoy slumming.

Have I got that right? I'm missing you already.

Ralph

Kyoteblue, you have a year and two doors over me…

LIG,

I understand that they may not be able to pour out full info, particularly on Baltimore, but presumably they have prices from VF. I would think after Baltimore turned out to be 4-5 times the cost of the Host just for the space that the costs of VF would be released sooner and not later.

Especially since they probably had no choice anyway, so are not really responsible for the society being stick with these costs. But if you are going to talk about being forthcoming with info it is nice to actually follow through.

I just think that not being forthcoming just breeds more distrust and squanders the basic goodwill that is out there but suppressed by recent events. I'd be the first to run more games, pay more to get in, do what is needed to make the conventions a success as long as it is clear that is what is happening. But I am not willing to go to additional effort or expense to help people hide or cover up mistakes or to support more outsized egos.

My advice to the board is to stop the recent tendency to act like you are running the CIA. If there is possible litigation in Baltimore then you probably can't talk about that. Other than that and the credit card numbers of members and dealers, there isn't a legitimate secret in the whole organization.

Civil

I agree. I just hope that the BoD will be more forthcoming at Cold Wars. I also hoped in the Easter Bunny at one time…

If they had an opportunity to keep it at the Host they should have taken it.

I understand that they may not be able to pour out full info, particularly on Baltimore, but presumably they have prices from VF. I would think after Baltimore turned out to be 4-5 times the cost of the Host just for the space that the costs of VF would be released sooner and not later.

I'd rather they take the time to put the entire story, lessons learned and recommendations going forward than release things, including existing and possibly still developing plans for VF, in a piece meal fashion.

Their credibility, for me, is not dependent on whether they instantly give individuals what they demand regarding information. Rather its whether they DEMONSTRATE by their actions, that they have the ability and motivation to do whats best for the society's interests. And that is not always readily apparent in the short term or in piece meal correspondence where context can be lacking.

I'd be the first to run more games, pay more to get in, do what is needed to make the conventions a success as long as it is clear that is what is happening. But I am not willing to go to additional effort or expense to help people hide or cover up mistakes or to support more outsized egos.

Hell, when has it ever been clear what has been happening in detail. Its NOT been an issue, only because the conventions have followed a set pattern in location, content, process, etc etc. Who the hell cared what we were paying for game tables or how often the water pitchers were filled. As long as the conventions occurred, in their normal cycle for their normal prices, with their normal content in games, vendors etc etc.

My advice to the board is to…

and my advice to you is to stop giving advice and pitch in and join the BoD and perform your duty the way you think it should be discharged.

I have no doubt you'll treasure my advice for the price…free. Just as I am sure your advice has the same value to the BoD.

Happy Holidays!

From the FWIW department I have stated my feeling on how the organization miss handled the move to the BCC, also I have stated I have no problem with the convention at VF. Check the posts before slinging Bull .
VR
James Mattes

Can anyone point out where previous contract info was provided to the membership? Some people keep asking like it always happens, and honestly, I can't remember one time when it has before.

What is relevant to the attendees is what will be the price of hotel rooms and admission, and that's it. What is relevant to dealers is how much a new place will cost them. That's it.

Contracts are business proprietary information, and as such, should be guarded. HMGSE is a business that must protect such info from competitors, would-be competitors (which were threatened here), and future venues they may wish to negotiate with. Releasing such info helps no one here in any material way, and doesn't help the organization one bit. So, don't hold your breath expecting something that has never been done before – and for good reason.

My guess is the legal entanglements with the BCC and perhaps some of the hotels may not be done, so again, don't hold your breath.

"What is relevant to dealers is how much a new place will cost them. That's it."
No, I respectfully disagree that that's not all "it".
I don't know who you are but if you are not a dealer then please do not pretend to speak for any of us. And speaking only for myself, it all comes down to – not only my costs of going to a new place – but includes my corresponding income for that particular show. It also includes what I foresee as the future potential for that new location. Is the organization going forward in a strong or weak way, or is it just flailling along hopeing for the best. There's a lot of other smaller considerations, but it is not just the costs.
Toby Barrett, Thoroughbred Figures

HMGSE is a business that must protect such info from competitors, would-be competitors (which were threatened here), and future venues they may wish to negotiate with.

I think someone else made the point that HMGSE is NOT a business, but a Non-profit corporation, and as such, their records are open to public scrutiny. Does this include contracts? I'm not sure, but I wouldn't bet against it.

To further what Toby said; speaking as a dealer, like he said, cost is not "it".

Potential income is.

About 70% of my customers told me they were not going to Baltimore.

Based on that, I don't care if the tables and hotel are free; if very few of my core customers show up, the show will not work for me.

The majority of the customers I spoke with want to go to a con to game.

That is THEIR "it"; not WHERE it is, WHAT is in store for them.

Period.

Guys:

I'm not speaking for the dealers, but neither did I just fall off the truck. The VFCC addresses most of the major hurdles the BCC posed – close in free parking, adjoining hotels, easy in and out for everyone. And, the discussion was about the demand for the release of the contracts – which has never been done before, and wouldn't help in your decisions one bit.

No doubt you'll soon have to make a commitment to Hcon one way or the other. So, unless I miss my guess, the "buzz" on the VFCC is positive enough for you all to attend. And again, unless I miss my guess, you are waiting to hear what your costs will be, as are most attendees.

So why are you arguing over what seems to amount to splitting hairs?

HMGSE is indeed a business – but it just happens to file as a non-profit 501 (c) (3) – which in this case means the business has an educational goal. That is irrelevant to the way it is run other than certain paperwork filed with the state and IRS, as it is still a corporation, with a board of directors, with all the rights and privileges of law. The goal is to make a profit, promote the hobby, promote military history, and put on conventions. If you think you have a right to see the contracts, go ahead and ask. While you are at it, ask the Red Cross, United Way, and a host of other non-profits to see their contracts. Good luck to you.

Attendees already know their costs; the cost per room at the two main site hotels has been made public. There are also other hotels in the area to book rooms at.

Iv'e already said I am going based on; 1.) location and 2.) the amount of core customers who've already told me they are going.

The vendor booth/table rates have not been announced yet, but I know what my table rates were at Historicon the past few years and even if the rates are double what they used to be, I will still attend because 1.)It is an hour less drive for me and 2.) The hotel rate is cheaper than what I've paid at Historicon the past few years.

As far as the books of HMGS, I really don't care; they run three very good shows per year where I make a nice profit at, some (Cold Wars and Historicon) more than others (Fall In, but I really do not care as I make a mini vacation out of it) and as a business owner, my bottom line is all I am concerned with, end of story.

HMGSE is indeed a business – but it just happens to file as a non-profit 501 (c) (3)[…] The goal is to make a profit…

Don't see a problem with your logic there? A "business", as most people understand it, has a primary goal of making money. Sure, there are non-profit businesses, but if you look at them, they always have as a goal raising money for a specific purpose – HMGSE doesn't. It is not a philanthropic organization, despite the attempts of some to make it one.

As for your non-profit comparison and the viewing of contracts…

While you are at it, ask the Red Cross, United Way, and a host of other non-profits to see their contracts.

I also am not a paying/voting member of the Red Cross or United Way. Seems like a pretty significant difference to me. But, it really only matters what the HMGSE by-laws state. And guess what? The by-laws don't say that contracts shall NOT be releasable to the membership, which means to me that if you are a member in good standing, you should be able to request a copy from the BoD.

That said, a "need to know" would come into play here. Given the current atmosphere, I don't expect the BoD to post them on the Internet, but they could provide them to serious, interested members who are willing to pay the copying and mailing costs, with the understanding that the contract, or information from it, is not releasable to non-members. That would include posting them on the Internet or mass-emailing it. That person recieving said information would have an obligation to protect it for the corporation.

Firstvarty1979:

Some people seem to think that being a non-profit means you shouldn't make a profit, which fortunately is not how the IRS sees it. It is not my business to teach tax law here, so you can look that up on your own. But for the record, not too many companies survive losing money, for profit or not.

"Sure, there are non-profit businesses, but if you look at them, they always have as a goal raising money for some other purpose – HMGSE doesn't. It is not a philanthropic organization, despite the attempts of some to make it one."

And that is where you are wrong. HMGSE has given a good bit of its money away over the years, for a variety of programs. Again, not my job to educate you on all those, but you seems interested, so ask them, as they are quite long, numerous, diverse, etc.

Members have limited rights in any organization. I own stock, but that doesn't mean a company is bound to open its books to me and divulge anything I deem of interest. But go ahead and give it a go if you like. I'll be interested in hearing about your experiences.

I also disagree that a need to know comes into play for 99% of the attendees. What I want as a member/attendee is a good time for what I deem a reasonable price, at a nice venue. I don't need to how the watch works, only that it works. But, if you feel so motivated, go for it. Again, I'll be interested in hearing about your experiences.

Double G:

Attendees do not know the price of admission yet, price of flea market tables, etc. But yes, they know how much the rooms will be. I suspect all that other stuff will be a bit more, perhaps in line with the recent price increases of CW, so I doubt it will be a factor. I suspect the same will apply to your table costs too, but I guess we'll see. Other than that, I don't see where we disagree at all. I'm glad it is not the BCC, and I look forward to seeing what the VFCC looks like.

Some people seem to think that being a non-profit means you shouldn't make a profit…

I don't misunderstand the difference. But we're not talking about OTHER non-profit organizations, only this very unique one. I took issue with your statement that HMGSE should have a "goal" of making a profit. It's goal should be running conventions and "education" associated with that. Not "scholarships", not paying for travel and hotels for "VIPs" to attend events, not giving selected members perks, and not having events that don't pay for themselves. The reason HMGSE is in the fix it is in now is because of the many digressions away from just hosting those 3 wargaming conventions.

Yes, HMGSE shouldn't lose money, but the only thing the organization should be raising money for is to cover legitimate, but unanticipated, additional expenses associated with those conventions, not to make a profit for profit's sake. There are no shareholders to pay, no salaries and bonuses. Why is tax law even part of the discussion? Just because you CAN do something which the law allows it doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. The BoD raising fees and dues (just because they can) in order to finance a pipedream falls into that category.

Regarding the release of contract information and the need of any member to see it, I would say that as long as things are seeming to run smoothly, and there isn't much desire from the membership, it won't happen. But now it seems that a majority of the membership (not "attendees" – though the difference is slight, it matters) is unhappy about the BCC/VFCC situation, and that unhappiness has equated to a heightened interest in the nature of those contracts. You see it here, and on the HMGSE Yahoo site. Sure, a large part of that audience could give a damn, but there seems to be an increasing number of people who are taking notice, many of them to a much greater extent than myself. I don't think they are going to be willing to tolerate any more grand foolishness again, and they will want to know the details of the contracts.

Will I personally be the one asking to see the contracts? Maybe, maybe not. Do I think that a request for a complete copy of the Historicon contract (BCC or VFCC) would be denied? Probably. However, if a member got the full release of contract information entered as a Board item, that would be interesting. Sure, they could deny it, but I think that might be at their peril. It really depends on how detailed the Cold Wars meeting is in that area, and if what is said there satisfies even the most vocal of those in attendance.

All members should have the right to see the contract. Isn't in the public realm? If it isn't why are there financail reports based on some of those contracts? Why would the disclosure be different. And most importantly who is heck does a club officer think he or she is that they can accept money from me and others and not be "Expected" to furnish details on how it is spent? I am asking also to see the contracts in this case. I am only after answers, not heads.

The ones who were against Baltimore. We're right here. Right in the middle of a mess we didn't create. A person or persons went off half-cocked as it were whether you were pro Baltimore or pro Lancaster. Couldn't try to even take a quick survey of the opinions of the membership which more than likely would have been don't do it or do it with certain caveats that protect our finances. Okay well we went off half-cocked again and signed another contract, but apparently we are going to have to pay out some money. How much you ask? Nobody knows or is saying. What a minute if you ask that question you must be some kind of luddite and don't want Historicon to grow or you hate the BOD? Rubbish. My dues money supports this crazy organization that I love and I want it to be spent with accountability and not the throw of a dart at a wish list. Trying to gloat when you just monumentally failed is really stupid, but forgiveable.

firstvarty1979:

I agree with most of what you are saying. My own opinion about the money HMGSE has stockpiled has always been – why? I never believed the stuff about cons being wiped out due to some unforseen happening. I guess it could happen – but hasn't in some 25 years, so is rather unlikely. I was never a fan of scholarships, history day, or some of the other money give aways. That said, they have donated money to some deserving causes, so perhaps it evens out.

My own opinion is that the contracts are rather meaningless without income to balance it against. From what I understand, the difference with the VFCC is that the Hcon staff was fully involved, something they were not at the BCC. Obviously, the VFCC will cost more, but until we all go there, and see who else goes there, we can't rank it a success or failure yet. Even if the VFCC is a lateral move in quality, it is a better move in quantity, and we will find out within a year or two if that extra space is really needed – so perhaps all that extra money HMGSE has stockpiled might come in handy after all. As others have stated, I suspect we would always be welcome back to the Host, so why not give this a try. I'm okay with the hotel costs, location, and venue (sight unseen), and I suspect most others will be too.

And no vonLoudon, this is is not the public "realm" – whatever that means. I also disagree that they went off half-cocked again. The VFCC was on the short list of places to move to – it was scratched some years ago for issues that have since been resolved or accepted. The main short coming of the VFCC was that it was not near an airport. I agree with others here that this con primarily serves the people of the region, but of course, everyone else is welcome to attend – but perhaps the expectation it will be catered to them is a bit too much to ask.

Someone on another thread stated that the VFCC is closer to Philly airport than Baltimore airport is to the BCC. Is that wrong?

Historygamer,

Based on your response, I believe you have misread von Loudons comments.

Ralph

I will look again. It is a hazard of this form of communication.

I can't tell whether he was talking about the VFCC or the BCC, and I did find his posts a bit confusing and hard to follow.

Here is part of his first post:

" Why would the disclosure be different. And most importantly who is heck does a club officer think he or she is that they can accept money from me and others and not be "Expected" to furnish details on how it is spent?"

Well, you can ask them, but sending dues in and expecting some sort of right to all the details of everything are two different things. Boards have executive sessions for sensitive details and are not legally bound to release the info, nor do I suspect that they are legally obligated to release proprietary information such as contract either.

"I am asking also to see the contracts in this case. I am only after answers, not heads."

Go ahead and ask then, but I doubt you are entitled to what you are demanding, at least by law.

But I have to wonder why you are using this soap box instead of just asking them for the information you desire. One does not seem to lead to the other.

Look, if you do not want to go, just be quite and go to bed.
John Parris
PS Happy New Years
May the wind always be at your back.

firstvarty1979 27 Dec 2009 11:37 p.m. PST wrote:

…. But now it seems that a majority of the membership (not "attendees" – though the difference is slight, it matters) is unhappy about the BCC/VFCC situation, and that unhappiness has equated to a heightened interest in the nature of those contracts.

HMGS membership is somewhere between 2500 and 3000 members. How can you or I say the majority feel one way or the other? Personally I do give a flying Fig about what a dozen or so folks on TMP (Many who have not attended the conventions in years if EVER!) say one way or the other. They do not speak for membership. The membership can't be bothered one way or the other to even vote. 400 or less members even bother to send in a ballot. Less then 6 or 7 even read the financials and most did not even notice there were no financials for over 6 months and no board meeting minutes for over 18 months.
VR
James Mattes

kyoteblue 25 Dec 2009 9:31 p.m. PST
I drive a 2003 Chevy Caviler …..4 door……

*NJH: I have a 2004 Mach I (Torch Red).

vojvoda 28 Dec 2009 7:28 p.m. PST
……
The membership can't be bothered one way or the other to even vote. 400 or less members even bother to send in a ballot. Less then 6 or 7 even read the financials and most did not even notice there were no financials for over 6 months and no board meeting minutes for over 18 months.

*NJH: That's most likely true for all oganizations. However, just because the vast majority of the membership can't be bothered doesn't mean the few who do should be denied their legal rights. Visibility means accountability.

*NJH: I have a 2004 Mach I (Torch Red)

Completely off topic – I have a 2009 Mustang Bullitt Edition. I love that car!

James,

HMGS membership is somewhere between 2500 and 3000 members. How can you or I say the majority feel one way or the other? Personally I do give a flying Fig about what a dozen or so folks on TMP (Many who have not attended the conventions in years if EVER!) say one way or the other.

With all due respect, if you think that the disapproval with the move to the BCC is due to 12 people on TMP, then you are seriously out of touch.

However, I do agree with your last sentence. Just more lack of transparency.

Ralph (who voted)

From James Mattes: "HMGS membership is somewhere between 2500 and 3000 members."

That number is currently in serious dispute and should no longer be touted. If you glean the year-to-date membership dues collected so far as of the end of August 09 (the last report I've seen) as tallied in that months financial report the amount totaled $26,820. If you divide that figure by $20 USD – the membership dues fee for one year – you get a grand total of only 1341 dues paying members for 2009. Add to that figure about 30-40 lifetime members. Also add a few members that paid for multi-year memberships before that option was eliminated years ago and you still get no where near the 2500+ level.

Sorry to have neglected the furor on TMP. However, when Pete Panzeri was replaced as President HMGS EAST stopped censoring the "announcements" group. So that is the place for arguing about HMGS EAST policies and business decisions.

For the record, Valley Forge is, was, and ever shall be as bad or worse than Baltimore Convention Center. And the lawyers, as far as anyone knows, are still trying to get out of paying for BCC. But we now have two done deals to cope with.

The big problem with either place is that no matter how many hotel rooms we sell, all we get for it is a hearty "Thanks Sucker" from the hotels. Since 1984 HMGS (EAST) has received most of its meeting space free for selling hotel rooms.

At this point we may have been able to hang on at the HOST for a few years. Certainly we didn't need to move in 2002 when the 'NEXT LEVELLERS" planned to increase our meeting room expense by 800% to go to Valley Forge. But we have reached the point at which there are things we would like to do for which the HOST has no space.

As for how many members there are in HMGS EAST, the seldom consulted financial reports indicate, I think, 1,637 paid members plus less than a hundred who either bought or received from the Society life memberships.

My advice to all is, try to get a room at the Radisson or Scanticon on site. They run about $100, but are cheaper and more convenient than the alternatives. And since VFCC, like BCC, is a financial catastrophy in the making, this may be your last chance to attend HISTORICON.

For the record, Valley Forge is, was, and ever shall be as bad or worse than Baltimore Convention Center. And the lawyers, as far as anyone knows, are still trying to get out of paying for BCC. But we now have two done deals to cope with.

Why is it worse than the BCC? Has it been verified that we're still dealing with two done deals? Do we know what the lawyers have struck up?

Also, have the financials for the VFCC been posted yet? If they were, I would like to look at them.

Regards

LIG

Long Island Gamer:

The Bullitt edition is indeed a nice car. Congratulations.
For the next few years my well-sorted but old 944 will have to soldier on.
Yes, it's off-topic, but like most threads on conventions it goes on way too long.

Pat:

I think you are over reaching a bit declaring the convention a disaster already. We'll have to see how the income versus expenses comes out. If the existing dealers buy more space, then revenue goes up. If more dealers attend, then revenue goes up. As you know, HMGSE conventions were never founded to be financially successful based upon attendee gate. I would also point out that Origins enjoyed great success in the Philly area, and I believe the last year they were there was followed by one of Hcon's own highest attendance records as well.

BCC is in the heart of a good gaming community, but what has been heard about the contracts just killed any chance it had of success. The physical obstacles of lacking close in parking, loading, and adjoining hotels made it seem even worse (if that was possible).

Just the lack of penalty clauses alone in the VFCC deal makes it a bargain over the BCC deal.

I suspect the organization can pull this off, if they return CW to profitability, and if they are fiscally conservative with FI too. If they can maximize those two cons for revenue, keep the board's spending under control (which a lot of was geared toward the BCC issues), then they should be fine for a year or two and know the answers. But, they have to do those other things to ensure this venture.

I respectfully disagree that VFCC is worse based upon the above. I have heard it might be worse for smaller dealers who made minimal profits at the Host. Perhaps, but that is a business decision.

You know Pat you can not have it both ways on the profits from the conventions. You have been very vocal about how the conventions made so much money but now you are up in arms because they only make so much. Cost (speakers, more staff such as all the folks who work the painting events and yes some boondoggles such as paying for NSDM every convention) have gone up because of excepted additional costs. The board has the responsibility and the Treasurer should be the one bringing those overages to the attention of the board. Board travel cost has gone up as more board members were outside of 3 hours of Maryland where most of the meetings are held. I agree the board should have been more focused on the budget especially in a year where they were projecting a loss. Tight reins on the ship should have been the fiscal motto for the year.

VR
James Mattes

I see no reason the membership can not see the details of the contracts for any of the three conventions. That said I think the entire contract should be considered proprietary and only board members and key convention staff need to see the entire contract.
VR
James Mattes

Master Caster 29 Dec 2009 6:47 a.m. PST wrote:
From James Mattes: "HMGS membership is somewhere between 2500 and 3000 members."

That number is currently in serious dispute and should no longer be touted. If you glean the year-to-date membership dues collected so far as of the end of August 09 (the last report I've seen) as tallied in that months financial report the amount totaled $26,820. If you divide that figure by $20.00 USD USD – the membership dues fee for one year – you get a grand total of only 1341 dues paying members for 2009. Add to that figure about 30-40 lifetime members. Also add a few members that paid for multi-year memberships before that option was eliminated years ago and you still get no where near the 2500+ level.

You might be right. The last numbers I saw off the database was back in 2005 or so. But there are far more life members then you realize. The board has started handing them out again a few years ago. Also there are many who renew for multiple years (not the five year membership but folks on the database that go out as far as 2015 on the last database I saw.

As to membership I would like to see what it would be without the discount for the conventions. I once floated the idea of a tiered membership, one level for supporting membership and one for sustaining membership (ie voting rights) I wish I would have make the presentation a motion on the board at the time. Too late now.

VR
James Mattes

"'d rather they take the time to put the entire story, lessons learned and recommendations going forward than release things, including existing and possibly still developing plans for VF, in a piece meal fashion.

Their credibility, for me, is not dependent on whether they instantly give individuals what they demand regarding information. Rather its whether they DEMONSTRATE by their actions, that they have the ability and motivation to do whats best for the society's interests. And that is not always readily apparent in the short term or in piece meal correspondence where context can be lacking."

That's an argument based on trust. They don't have that anymore. If they want to re-establish that they have to be more forthcoming, even if it is partial information and they haven't had the chance to spin it yet.

"and my advice to you is to stop giving advice and pitch in and join the BoD and perform your duty the way you think it should be discharged."

It should be discharged by holding them to what they say and not blindly accepting what is said, especially after recent events.

>paying for NSDM every convention

??? Say what ???

OK, from now on I want to know exactly how much was paid for which games at any given con.

OK, from now on I want to know exactly how much was paid for which games at any given con.

I am with Paint By Numbers. I can say that we paid for no games at FALL-IN! 2009, I refused to do so. I will not be paying for any games in 2010 either. I cant speak to the other two conventions though…

The easy answer to how many members we have is to look at the number of people who cast a ballot, usually in the low 300's. Any other member is only in it for the discount to the conventions. This is the reason we offer the discount, otherwise, our membership roles would be downright pitiful.

As to current members, I was given a data base just prior to FALL-IN! 2009. This list is supposed to contain every current member, wether paid, or lifetime. It shows 1760 paid members, 76 Life members, and 33 Legion of Honor members, total membership of 1869. This file is dated 08/31/2009

As to convention contracts, no one has asked, and I won't photocopy a contract to send to anyone, but if anyone has any specific questions about the FALL-IN! contracts, the only ones that I have access to, ask away. I will answer any questions offline as long as you are on the membership roles of East. Unlike many who have been, and are, in this organization, I don't believe in keeping secrets from the dues payers…

Long Island Gamer 29 Dec 2009 5:18 a.m. PST

Completely off topic – I have a 2009 Mustang Bullitt Edition. I love that car!

*NJH: You can't go wrong in a Mustang. I test drove the Bullitt, liked it, but they don't make them in red.