"Okay, so where are they???" Topic

Now that it's been decided that Historicon is now in Valley Forge instead of the BCC…I want to know…

Where are they?

Where are the ones that screamed…"WHY CAN'T WE GO BACK TO THE HOST?"…

I don't hear them…

Where are the ones that screamed…"WAIT WAIT…WHAT WAS THEIR REASONING FOR PICKING THIS SITE!?!..WHY THIS SITE?!?!"

I don't hear them…

Where are the ones that screamed "PURGE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS!!!"

I don't hear them…

Where are the ones that screamed "THE BOARD DIDN'T SHOW US THEIR CRITERIA FOR PICKING THIS LOCATION!!! THIS IS ILLEGAL!!!!"

I don't hear them…

Where are the ones that said "If they don't have it at the HOST, I won't go!"

I don't hear them…

Where are the ones wanting "FULL ACCOUNTABILITY FROM THE BOD and their decision making process?"

I don't hear them…

Where are the ones screaming about "How they did it back in '86, or '93 and no one else has done it right since then?"

I don't hear them…

Where are they?…

The silence is deafening, and yet it speaks volumes…

"Why can't we go back to the Host?" A: It's not available, apparently, at least for 2010.

Why this site?" A: Because it was affordable compared to the BCC, and they couldn't find any others with the size, price and dates.

"Purge the BoD!" A: That's not a question, and I don't recall anyone saying that. Please show us.

"Show us the criteria…etc." A: I think we all know what that is by now. You can attend the Cold Wars meeting and I'm sure you can find out.

"Not at the Host, I won't go!" A: Who ever said that? No one on here was against a move away from the Host for ANY reason. Where in the world do you dig up this stuff?

"Full accountability!" A: They've promised it this time. They didn't about the BCC. So far they've proved themselves trustworthy this time around.

"How they used to do it…" A: I'll leave that for Bob Coggins and Pat Condray to debate you on.

Murphy,

It is what it is. Perhaps VF is a compromise and people don't feel the need or are exhausted from debating convention sites. For my part, I made alternate plans for my vacation when BCC was first announced. I'm not going at all now, so I've redirected my energies in other directions.

Baltimore was a non-starter for me, but I would give VF a try in 2011 or beyond because it is closer than the Host and I'm guessing my costs would probably be around the same. However, It's going to cost the organization more to go to VF than Lancaster, so I do hope they evaluate things closely next year in terms of financial viability of the VF location long term. I would be happier if it goes back to the Host.

Guys I know…I was in a and mood, trying to see if someone "with an agenda" will come out from under the bridge…

I guess no matter what happens there are some that will never be happy and always look for a reason to complain. Good luck with all that.

Alleluia brother!

Where are the Unions, and crime reports, the parking and food ?
Where are the complaints about drives, and bridges? boo-hoo
There were issues with Hotel Costs, food, late night drinking binges and coolers.
They argued about noises and spaces and really corrupt rulers.
The decision came with out reports and graphs.
It came and it went all under wraps.
It makes you think "What was it all for?"
Why do so many hate Baltimore?
We all just wanted to play with lead toys.
Why did it turn us into Grinchy little boys?
I guess it doesn't matter now we have stepped back from the gorge.
Like Washington we are off to Valley Forge!

Sorry Dr. Seuss, it just happened!

Flashy
(John Camarano)

But Flash…do you like Green Eggs and Ham?

Will you eat them on a plane?
Will you eat them on a train?
Will you eat them on a bus? (shuttle bus from the Philly Airport to be exact)…
Will you eat them in all of this fuss?

So, Murph, are you saying that the ideal troll bait is a troll?
Hey, I'm just asking!

No, the ideal bait for a troll is a trollop.

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Trollop….1…2…3!

Lol. It's funny how there can never really be a debate or discussion on anything without the very act of expressing a point of view being ridiculed. Particularly amusing since Baltimore turned out to be a worse debacle than even the most pessimistic assessments on here…much like early Union assessments in the civil war.

I am certain there will be significant problems with VF. I know it was considered and rejected in the past so there were obviously at least some supposed problems. Cost, probably most major. Also these dates are not great, being week of the July 4 holiday. That isn't going to help attendance either.

That said, unlike the Baltimore decision, which was done in an irresponsible and arrogant manner and started from scratch where there was plenty of time to research, etc., this move was a bandage applied to a wound. There wasn't time, we doubtless had to take whatever weekend we could get anywhere that could work, and so while it may or may not make a good new home for the convention it was at least a credible exercise in damage control, particularly if they follow through with the transparency promise.

We are all assuming that the BoD managed to shimmy out of the BCC contracts without any financial liability, n'est-ce pas?

If so, then let me be the first to congratulate them on pulling this chestnut out of the fire.

We are all assuming that the BoD managed to shimmy out of the BCC contracts without any financial liability, n'est-ce pas?

A question I asked on the HMGS Forum.

Not yet but I'm on vacation whereas most of the occiffers are, I would guess, still at their day jobs.

I'm right here. As I posted last thread, (you must have missed it), did we still have to pay BCC, and why is the person responsible for this fiasco still on the BoD? He should have been told to pack it or resigned in disgrace. I've already made other plans and will not be attending Hcon '10.

""Why can't we go back to the Host?" A: It's not available, apparently, at least for 2010."

That's not true. It was reported, but is not so. I was told by Pat Harmes personally that she wanted us back, and had a weekend for us close to our original date, but she was turned down as the BOD felt that they really needed a bigger space, and were committed to moving the show. I didn't inquire about this, she just brought it up in conversation. I don't have any complaints about moving on, but don't want people laboring under the false assumption that the Host was unavailable, this was a conscience decision, for good or bad…

We are still here Murphy, we just thought an I told you so……. just did not quite cover it… LOL … At this point I don't think anyone has the energy to care….

I don't have any complaints about moving on, but don't want people laboring under the false assumption that the Host was unavailable, this was a conscience decision, for good or bad…

Thanks for that information. I hope that is part of the full explanation that should be forthcoming to the membership.

It is funny now that it moved back into the neighborhood of the Host everyone who cried the loudest is happy. VF is actually further away then Baltimore for me and I am going to do what they did, I am not going now. I am also going to start asking the same questions they did.

How will I be able to unload my stuff? Why only 400 some rooms for a convention with thousands of people? I hear the crime in Philly is terrible? How much will parking cost me? Can I bring beer in to drink? Were is the official Historicon bar so we can hang out afterwards? Were can I eat cheap within walking distance. Where are the $50 USD motels across the street? Can we game all night? What will it cost me for a flea market table? Will I need a vendor liscense? Can my gaming club have our own room to store games and leaave them up?

Please feel free to join in as you think of them. I am sure I didnt cover everything. Have fun at the rat mating.

Murph et al. I just asked on HMGS issues forum for full disclosure of the BCC settlement, the dues increases and the costs for Valley Forge not in the interest of one con or another or wrecking or supporting one, I just want answers as to where my money goes and how decisions are made, usually without informing us, how they intend to use it. I was going to go to Baltimore, but it in a way (bad luck at Maryland cons) I'm glad we're not going there.

I suspect that overall the costs will be darned near the same as the BCC. What is different is that the VFCC lacks many of the major stumbling blocks that plagued the BCC: VFCC has lots of free parking right next to it; VFCC has easy ingress/egress; VFCC has adjoining hotels. In short, I suspect it will cost more, but VFCC has all the main things that BCC lacked – excpet for more room, as they both have that. That and the VFCC is not in the middle of a city.

Guys I know…I was in a and mood, trying to see if someone "with an agenda" will come out from under the bridge…

……….. Someone did … You.

Mike B

Wow Mike…you sure got me there fella! Yessiree Bob!

My questions have been answered…

I now return you back to your regularly scheduled brainwashing….

btw…Mike…psst…I'm not an "under the bridge guy"….I'm more of a "Dark alley guy"…

"Thanks for that information. I hope that is part of the full explanation that should be forthcoming to the membership."

I doubt it. I don't want to get embroiled in the politics of this whole situation, but a member of the BOD told me in November that we could not go back to the Host in 2010 because there were no weekends available. I spoke with Pat of the Host in December, and that is when I learned that the BOD member flat out lied to me. I say, if you are going to make a decision, have the balls to stand behind it 100%, don't lie to me about why you did it, tell me the truth. I can respect someone who makes a decision that I don't agree with, but cant respect anyone who lies to me…

…a member of the BOD told me in November that we could not go back to the Host in 2010 because there were no weekends available.

Who lied to you? As a dues paying member of the HNGS-East, I want to know that person's name, so I can vote for someone else in the next election.

It is funny now that it moved back into the neighborhood of the Host everyone who cried the loudest is happy. VF is actually further away then Baltimore for me and I am going to do what they did, I am not going now. I am also going to start asking the same questions they did. – doug redshirt

Happy? Relieved maybe, but not happy.

If you are in Kansas, as shown in your member profile, does it really matter to you that much – do you normally attend? I would think that the difference in the distance is inconsequential to you – you could still fly into BWI if you wanted and only have an hour plus drive to Valley Forge.

If you're not going to go anyway, why would you care? Were you only going to go if Historicon were in Baltimore? If so, can you let us know why? I saw few benefits from my point of view, and I probably would have attended in Baltimore anyway since it's only an hour or so away (versus 2 1/2 to Lancaster), but only for a day. Being close, I can afford to a make a day trip of it. I would have thought that those who had to travel farther would have wanted more economical accomodations, etc.

Please clarify for us why you would only go if it were held at the BCC, as not many seem to share that opinion from what I can tell.

Many people asked those (for the most part) legitimate questions about the BCC, and some of the answers (when we got answers) were bothersome.

So far, the information provided for Valley Forge seems to indicate a "better deal" for us than the BCC. The one big question remaining seems to be what did it cost to get out of the BCC contract.

So it sounds like the idea was to move it no matter where it can be moved to. And that truly is a shame.
I mean if I wanted to nit pick I can say that the size of the place is not large enough based on a thread from a few months back when I was told by James Mattes that when I suggested the Farm Show arena in Harrisburg Pa. that it didn't meet the size requirement of I believe it was 110,000 or 120,000 feet. This is 108,000 so it doesn't meet the size requirements. Or was that just another way of dancing around the issue.

I will be polite and say that the HMGS-E BoD's (and Mr. Mattes') stock has fallen in the wargaming community of late.

"Dancing around issues" is something we've gotten used to. One hopes that there is some serious change in attitude with the BoD's new composition after this whole debacle.

Please remember that, with very few exceptions, .

YY

How many people on this discussion will run a game at Historicon?

I was going to run several games. Tactica II, The Sword and the Flame and probably an Operational level game of the whole 6 Day War. Baltimore is a much more interesting location for us coming for more then a day trip. Lot to do in Baltimore. Also easier to get to by driving, plane or train. I am not going to drive into the traffic of a very large city like Philly. There is a reason I live where I live, it is called space and no traffic.

But it really doesnt matter. My club was tired of waiting on East to decide something. So Origins for us.

Please remember that, with very few exceptions, .

YY

Honestly, I would beg to differ. Have you gone to the member meetings? The board knew very little in the way of facts regarding the BCC move. Here are some questions there were no answers to:

1) How do we define the BCC move as a success or a failure?
2) How many people will come back to Historicon if we move to the BCC?
3) How many people will we lose if we move to the BCC?
4) What is the roll back plan if this fails?

Mattes had the demographic breakdown posted here on TMP. He knew more than the BoD did.

Regards

LIG

LIG,

Where did he get that data from? I recall years back that they had an entire issue of the newsletter that consisted of a members list. Is that information available (Yahoo! Group site maybe?) somewhere that the BoD was unaware of/didn't have access to, but James Mattes did? And if he took that data and did a study, did he volunteer it to the BoD? Did they turn it down?

I assume that those four questions you mention were never sufficiently answered.

More and more questions….

Of course, a lot of this was predicted by many as soon as the announcement occurred earlier this year.

LIG,

Where did he get that data from? I recall years back that they had an entire issue of the newsletter that consisted of a members list. Is that information available (Yahoo! Group site maybe?) somewhere that the BoD was unaware of/didn't have access to, but James Mattes did? And if he took that data and did a study, did he volunteer it to the BoD? Did they turn it down?

I know the data was a couple of years old and it was presented to the BoD – I don't know where he got it from. There was another person (Age of Eagles??) that also had the demographic breakdowns.

The questions were not answered – at the members meeting at HCon and at Fall In.

Actually, Dudley told me that if attendance was down by 15% in 2010 and only down by 8% in 2011, they might consider the con a success.

"Actually, Dudley told me that if attendance was down by 15% in 2010 and only down by 8% in 2011, they might consider the con a success"

Now that really sums up the problem..let's see, if our cost continune to go up due to the change in venue and attendance is down anywhere from 8-15% and we lose our shirts, again, we'll just claim victory and move on…of course this is from a guy who lost the election and then was reappointed by his cronies and still apparently doesn't get it…and if SMPress is correct that the Host did have a date for summer 2010 and the BoD rejected it, then this "new" BoD is as hopeless as the last couple and things will only get worse…did I miss a discussion of the issue of vendors permits and whether both dealers and more importantly the flea market can survive…and what about having adult beverages in the gaming area…

db

db
did I miss a discussion of the issue of vendors permits and whether both dealers and more importantly the flea market can survive

actually, you did.

but that's ok

larry

did I miss a discussion of the issue of vendors permits and whether both dealers and more importantly the flea market can survive

This was discussed either here or on the HMGS Announcements Board.

…and what about having adult beverages in the gaming area…

Not officially permitted at the Host either. With regard to the VFCC see flyer on HMGS website.

Considering the state of the economy, a drop of 8% to 15% in attendance might well be considered a victory. You honestly don't think our little hobby is immune to real world pressures, do you?

Doug Redshirt said;

"I am not going to drive into the traffic of a very large city like philly"

And we wouldn't want you to Copernicus, especially considering the show isn't in Philly, it's in Valley Forge, about 45 minutes away from the traffic of Philly.

To answer some of your other questions;

Load in is a breeze, three large double doors across a large room right to your tables.

Parking is free, the parking lot is gigantic.

You can bring in all the beer you can drink.

There is a large bar in the Radisson in case you didn't get hammered enough during your game where you brought in the beer across the large room to your table from your vehicle through the large double doors.

Walking distance cheap food; you got me on that one Chef Ramsey.

You can game all night while getting hammered and then going to the bar to get more hammered and stagger back to you car parked in the free parking lot.

Oh wait; you're not coming and are going to Origins instead?

Then nevermind.

He's more like Galileo.

Alte Fritz, you are dangerously close to the truth. The truth is and Pat Condray can probably verify, the BOD spends like a drunken sailor. How can you possibly be facing a large monetary pay out over these contracts and turn around and sign another expensive contract before you have paid the first settlement. I realize there are certain entities that do this all the time, but I don't think this meets good accounting standards and I have asked for some figures on the matter respectfully from the BOD and have already had one attack by the Next Level crowd. So be it. The information will be forthcoming at a later date I'm told.

I have asked for some figures on the matter respectfully from the BOD and have already had one attack by the Next Level crowd. So be it. The information will be forthcoming at a later date I'm told.

Don't worry – I'm going to keep asking and I'll be a thorn in their side. I really don't care who attacks me – I just want the truth.

Where are they?…

The silence is deafening, and yet it speaks volumes…

You left out one group, Murph my friend…

"We need to stand behind this. It's for the growth of our hobby. Bigger and better"

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

PS – I might actually take up re-enacting so I can be a Union solider and shoot at you (but you probably have better aim – hehehe).

You can't handle the truth…………sorry, I couldn't resist.

Actually, you are one of the few who COULD handle the truth.

BOD told me in November that we could not go back to the Host in 2010 because there were no weekends available

This was close to what I was told by Panzari. He told me the exact weekend we chose was unavailable at the Host and the BoD did not want to move the dates from what had been published. They did say there were other weekends in July available.

Actually, you are one of the few who COULD handle the truth.

And I'll get it. I've been stared down by bigger and badder, by VPs and CIOs. I'm not a threatening person but I'm not one to stand by and have someone lie to me or ignore me.

I want Historicon to succeed. As long as the truth is locked away we risk having the same thing come back to haunt us. It's OK to make a mistake (even as large as the BCC one), it's not OK to ignore it and not learn from it.

You left out one group, Murph my friend…

"We need to stand behind this. It's for the growth of our hobby. Bigger and better"

Murphy, where are the, "Take it to the next level" guys?
Where are the, "Move Historicon Now!" guys?

Does their silence speak volumes too?

What about the many that responded to me that I was undermining the HMGS-East because I stated on the TMP that I was unhappy with the move to the BCC? What about all those that charged me with secretly hoping Historicon would fail simply because I gave an opinion on my hobby? And that despite the fact that I was going to Baltimore. Where are they now? My misgivings seem to have been borne out, n'est pas?

Murphy, a lot of nonsense has been written from all sides of this issue. Highlighting the valid concerns of only one side, for the purpose of ridicule, helps in what way? I'm going to Valley Forge, are you?

Ralph

It's OK to make a mistake (even as large as the BCC one), it's not OK to ignore it and not learn from it.

I absolutely, 100% agree. We seem to be of a like mind on all of this, as are most of what I consider the "sane" membership that has spoken up about this whole mess.

I simply do not understand the crowd who claim either, "it's our own fault for electing these people" and/or "once they are elected they are free to act without member involvement."

Would they allow such an approach to the government? Even it has a system of checks and balances that usually works – perhaps this is what HMGS-E needs?

Ralph, stop making so much sense with all of this, it flies in the faces of the "move historicon" crowd.

I find it comical that the majority of the people who wanted the con moved from the Host are now upset it landed in Valley Forge; you got your wish, they moved the con, so what is the problem.

The problem is they wanted it moved TO BALTIMORE, nowhere else, so now their jockeys are in a twist as this is not the place they wanted it to go.

So all the BS about "It's for the good of the hobby, we can now bring in all 900 dealers who were shut out, we need it closer to major city/airport, this is the only way the convention will grow, the host is a dump", etc, etc, was all nonsense.

BALTIMORE was the hot button.

Pretty sad actually.

Anyone who was pushing for a move from the Host and who now does not attend as it is in a location not to their liking is a fraud.

End of story.

Double G,

I think it's not that they wanted Balitimore specifically, they wanted it in a "first-class" location downtown in a major city, or at a 5-star type facility like the Gaylord/National Harbor near DC.

The VFCC isn't seen by them as that kind of location, even though it offers all of the things gamers most desire – lower overall cost, lots of free parking, easy and unfettered 24-hour access, and reletively inexpensive hotels nearby.

Baltimore, and other "first-class" locations offer none of that, only "status", which with a couple of bucks can buy you a cup of coffee, well, not at one of those locations. There you'd need a five-spot.