"French 2nd, 3rd, 4th Battalion standards pre 1812..." Topic

Hi Guys,

I'm after some info on the flag poles and standards used by the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc battalions of French infantry regiments pre 1812.

I'm aware that at some stage Napoleon tried to reduce the number of eagles to one per regiment and I thought this was before the new 1812 eagles and standards were issued. So what kind of pole did the eagle-less battalions use and what flag was attached to this pole? An 1804 pattern standard or something else?

Thanks

Officially from 1807 only the first bn was supposed to carry the Eagle while the other battalions were to have a plain flag or fanion which was to have no significance whatsoever and would not have a 'colour party'. The second bn had a white flag, the third bn had red and so on (I cannot remember the rest). The pole was the blue of the pole used with the Eagle and was topped with a gilded spearhead. There was not supposed to be any design on the flag but of course some regiments had thier own ideas which ranged from simply putting the bn and regt numbers on the flag to something that looked like the flag flown with the Eagle but without the presentation statement from the Emperor. Some regiments had very distinctive designs such as the 4th Ligne (I think it was) that had red and blue bands in different patterns and widths depending on the bn. GMB Flags do an excellent range of these fanions. Of course, some regiments ignored the orders and continued to carry an Eagle with each bn, especially the Leger regts.

Thanks for that. Just what I was looking for.

There should be some very usefull old threads about it, in 1812 a lot of line units got the new colour design, and it was indeed only one eagle for a line infantry regiment, the rest carried so called fanions (not to be confused with the fanions that the guides did carry)
The Guard carried even less eagles.

As I understand it, the original 1804-issue eagles came one per battalion, but I don't know how many battalions were alloted.

I doubt it was more than three bns. per regiment, maybe only two. I cannot believe that four eagles would be issued to a regiment in 1804.

Does anyone know?

I don't have my notes in front of me, but weren't fourth battalions not raised until the 1809 campaign against Austria? Fourth battalions would not have existed in 1804.

But I'm probably wrong, though.

The red and blue banded examples are from the 2eme Ligne of oudinot's Corps in 1812- captured and kept by the Russians.

Re the Legere regiments keeping their battalion eagles- I don't think that is correct- they were no different in this respect to other units. But the Legere were also even ordered even to give up their sole Regimental eagles in 1812 but did mostly defy THAT order.

However, we do know that the 7eme Legere did use a rather simplified version of an 1804 lozenge pattern colour for its battalion flags 1808-1812, but they were mounted on simple spearpoint poles.

Can anyone tell me what kind of flag the 4 Battalion would carry circa. 1809? Due to a windfall of cheap French castings I will be putting together Lannes'/Oudinot's II Corp of 1809, and there are two division almost entirely composed of 4th Battalions grouped into "demi-brigades d'elite". I am given to understand that these battalions were raised for this campaign so there is no possibility of them retaining 1804 eagles.

The "demi-brigades d'elite" had their own flags, and never had eagles, as far as I know. Nor have I ever seen these flags offered by commercial flag makers.

These unusual flags, carried on staffs with spear pointed tops, were 1.27m high by 0.78m wide. They were divided vertically into three bands – red, white and blue (from top to bottom). In the center white band, red cursive lettering indicating battalion. The one illustration I have shows cords but no cravate on the pole.

@ Widowson,

Interesting. So the battalion flags denoted their place in the demi-brigade instead of in the regiment through which they were raised? According to Gill's book on the 1809 campaign, all of these battalions were identified as the 4th battalion of a different parent regiment (the rest of which was fighting elsewhere entirely), so I'm a bit confused as to how they could be differentiated by number within the demi-brigade.

Also, to clarify, you mean their flags bore three horizontal bands of R, W, and B, rather than the standard French tricolor?

boomstick,

Yes, the entire matter is very confusing. There were a number of influences in play.

First, at this time eagles were no longer issued to new formations, apart from the first battalions. So, none of these "4th bn" units were issued anything in the way of eagle or flag. First battalions were still permitted to carry their eagles and flags, while 2nd and 3rd battalions, previously issued eagles, were now to carry only their old flags on spear pointed staffs, the eagles to be returned to the depots. AFAIK, there were no 4th bns in the organization when the eagles and flags were first issued in 1804.

Secondly, none of the 4th bns assigned to II Corps had ever served with their parent regiments. So these flags were sort of ad hoc.

Third, Oudinot's old combined elite division had been stripped to replace losses in the Old Guard. But for some reason I've never been able to understand, Oudinot was still associated with combined elites, and somehow the designation stuck with his name.

The description I gave is from Le Plumet plate no. 166, if that can be found (I'll try). Very strange flags. Much taller (1.27m) than wide (0.78m), and divided into three horizontal bands or r, w, b. I would have expected the blue to be at the top – but, NO.

Back to the original question –

It would appear that the 2nd and 3rd bns would be flying their original 1804 issue flags on blue poles with guilt spear points. 4th bns did not exist in 1804, so any flag they might have carried would be a fanon. I cannot guess what those would have looked like, other than the "elite" units of II Corps described above.

Widowson,

It sounds like I will have to type up a new OOB for II Corp. Currently, per Gill, I have all these new battalions labeled "X Regiment, 4th Battalion". I had no idea these demi-brigades had such unique flags, I only supposed each battalion carried a 4th Battalion fanion, which I just read elsewhere online was a blue flag.

I suppose I'm highjacking this thread now, since clearly the initial poster and I are looking for different flags. Thanks again, but I'll not derail this topic any longer.

I don't suppose he'd mind, since he got answers. In any case, I have a source on those 4th bns. Bowden and Tarbox, "Armies on the Danube."

II Corps, 1st Div – Tharreau

1st brig. – Conroux: 6th, 9th, 16th, 24th, 25th, 27th light (4th bns)
2nd brig. – Albert: 18th, 24th, 45th, 94th, 95th, 96th line (4th bns)
3rd brig. – Jarry: 4th, 18th, 54th, 63rd line (4th bns)

2nd Div – Claparede
1st brig. – Coehorn: 17th, 21st, 28th, 26th light (4th bns), Tirailleurs du Po (1 bn, but 1,118 men), Tirailleurs corses (1 bn, 899 men)
2nd brig. – Lesuire: 27th, 39th, 59th, 69th, 76th line (4th bns)
3rd brig. – Ficatier: 40th, 88th, 64th, 100th, 103rd line (4th bns)

Battalion strength varied from 315 to 540, average around 400 I guess. These are the returns from 15 April, 1809.