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"Your 15mm Sci-fi rules wish list" Topic


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TheDreadnought16 Dec 2009 5:46 p.m. PST

OK folks. . . describe for me your perfect hypothetical set of 15mm sci-fi rules.

A few thought starters:

Single figs or bases
Importance of infantry vs. armor vs. air support
Ranges
Line of sight
Dice
Morale
Close combat
Shooting/damage resolution system
Complexity
Movement
Command points
Command ranges
Weapon system detail
Battle size
Game duration
Things you've seen that you don't like (big one)
. . . and whatever else you can think to comment on.

Top Gun Ace16 Dec 2009 6:19 p.m. PST

All of the above, plus orbital bombardment/spacefighter support too.

Ambush Alley Games16 Dec 2009 7:04 p.m. PST

Here's what we are covering (so far) in Tomorrow's war (it's kind of a long list):

BASIC UNIT DEFINITIONS AND ATTRIBUTES
UNIT TYPES
TROOP QUALITY AND MORALE RATINGS
CONFIDENCE LEVEL
SUPPLY QUALITY
TECH LEVEL
The Sliding Scale of Technology
Tech Level Related Unit Attributes
Weapons
Armor
Stealth
Sensors
Contests Between Varied Tech Levels
Combat & Tech Levels
HARD TO KILL UNITS
Big Guns and Hard to Kill Units
UNIT COHESION
SPLIT UNITS
LEADERS
Effects of Leaders
Leaders Joining a Unit
ALTERNATE BASING (We use single figure bases, but can accomodate multi-figure stands)
BASICS OF PLAY
LINE OF SIGHT (LOS)
LINE OF FIRE (LOF)
Fog of War
OVERWATCH
MOVEMENT
MOVEMENT RATES
Cautious Movement
Rapid Movement
Default Movement Rate
MOVING UNITS ON THE TABLE
OUT OF CONTACT MOVEMENT
JUMP MOVEMENT
TERRAIN EFFECTS ON FIRE AND MOVEMENT
BUILDINGS & STRUCTURES
Destroying Buildings
Structural Strength
Fortified Buildings
Structural Strength
Building Destruction Tests
Breaching Buildings
Breaching Into a Hostile Building
WATER OBSTACLES
VERTICAL OBSTACLES
FORESTS AND WOODS
Artillery and Woods
EXTREMELY ROUGH GROUND
UNEARTHLY ENVIRONMENTS
VACUUM OR HAZARDOUS ATMOSPHERES
GRAVITY EFFECTS
FIRE COMBAT
Suppression Fire
CASUALTIES AND CASUALTY EVACUATION
First Aid Checks
Advanced First Aid
Calling for a medic
Casualty Evacuation (Casevac)
SPECIAL FIRE COMBAT RULES
Powered Armor (PA Suits)
Early Power Armor (TL 1)
Standard Power Armor (TL 2)
Recon Power Armor (TL 2)
Advanced Power Armor (TL 3)
Combat Drugs
Awareness Enhancement Drugs
Performance Enhancement Drugs
Frenzy Drugs
Smoke
Smoke From Grenades and Light Mortars
Smoke From Heavy Mortars and Artillery
Special Weapons
Advanced Small Arms
SMGs & Shotguns
Handguns
Intimidating Weapons
Flamethrowers
Special Teams
Weapon Teams
Sniper Teams
Dog and Other Animal Teams
Night Fighting
Stealthy Units
Spotting Stealthy Units
Suppressed Weapons
Hidden Units
Detecting Hidden Units
Going into Hiding
UAVs and Hidden Units
Chameleon Suits
OPTIONAL FIRE COMBAT RULES
Outgunned
Over-Penetration
CLOSE ASSAULT
Resolving an Infantry vs Infantry Close Assault
POWs
DEPENDENTS & CASUALTIES
DISPOSING OF DEPENDENTS & CASUALTIES
ABANDONING CASUALTIES
RELEASING POWS
FIRE AT UNITS WITH DEPENDENTS & CASUALTIES
CLOSE ASSAULTS AGAINST UNITS WITH DEPENDENTS & CASUALTIES
MORALE
MORALE CHECKS
Morale Effects
COMBAT STRESS
Background Stress Level
Positive Leadership & Stress
Negative Leaders & Stress
Mixed Leadership
Stress Tests
Losing Confidence
Regaining Confidence
CIVILIANS ON THE BATTLEFIELD
Regulars and Civilian Mobs
"Popular" Leaders and Civilian Mobs
Mixed Mobs: Civlilian & Combatant Units
Hostile Mobs
SPECIAL UNIT TYPES
ROBOTIC FORCE MULTIPLIERS
Autonomous Gun Platforms (AGPs)
AGPs in Combat
Semi-Autonomous Gun Platforms (SAGPs)
SAGPs in Combat
Remotely Operated Weapons (ROWs)
ROWs on Overwatch
ROBOTIC FORCE ENHANCERS
Robotic Medics (Care Bears)
MOUNTED UNITS
Types of Mounted Units
Movement for Mounted Units
Fire Combat and Mounted Units
Firing from a Mount
Firing at Mounted Units
Close Combat and Mounted Units
Casualties, Dependents and Mounted Units
ALIENS
Defining An Alien Force
VEHICLE RULES
ACTIVATING VEHICLES
VEHICLE REACTIONS & DEFENSIVE ACTIONS
VEHICLE TYPES
Wheeled
Tracked
Ground Effects Vehicles (GEVs)
Anti-Gravity Vehicles (AGVs)
Walkers
VEHICLE MOVEMENT
Nap of the Earth (NOE) 98
Flight 98
LOADING AND UNLOADING PASSENGERS
VEHICLE FIREPOWER
Vehicle Weapon "Classes"
Infantry Fire from Vehicles
VEHICLE DEFENSE
Smoke Dischargers
ERA Detonation & Nearby Infantry
VEHICLE FIREPOWER ATTACKS VS VEHICLES
Determine Hits
Overkill
Determining Vehicle Damage
Vehicle Crew/Passenger Casualties
VEHICLE CREWS & MORALE
Morale Results for Vehicle Crews
Bail Outs
Fire at Infantry in Open Topped Vehicles or Riders on Vehicles
VEHICLE VS. INFANTRY FIRE COMBAT
Infantry Weapons vs. Vehicles
Anti-Tank Guided Missiles
Limpet Mines, Sticky Bombs, Suicide Vests & VBIEDs
Vehicle Weapons vs. Infantry
Infantry Close Assault vs. Vehicles
Firing into an Infantry vs. Vehicle Close Assault
VEHICLE SPECIAL RULES
VEHICLE DESIGN GUIDELINES
GUNS
Anti-Tank Guns
Infantry Guns
USING GUNS
Placement and Movement of Guns
Firing Guns
Firing at Guns
VTOLS AND VTOL OPERATIONS
LZS & EZS
FAST ROPE INSERTIONS
GROUND FIRE
Alternate Ground Fire – Ambient Fire
VTOL DAMAGE EFFECTS
VTOL GUN RUNS
Requesting a Gun Run
Executing a Linear Gun Run
Executing an Orbital Gun Run
Danger Close
EXAMPLE VTOLS
CONVENTIONAL CLOSE AIR SUPPORT
GROUND FIRE AGAINST FIXED WING AIRCRAFT
Air Defense Weapons
Fixed Wing Aircraft Defense and Survivability
Aircraft Defense
Aircraft Survivability
Example Aircraft
Fixed Wing Aircraft Damage Effects
AIRSTRIKES
Requesting Air Support
Executing Strafing Run
Executing an Orbital Gun Run
Bombing Runs
INTERFACE OPERATIONS
INTERFACE FIGHTERS & CLOSE AIR SUPPORT
Ground Controlled Interface Fighter Strikes
IFOC Procedure
Interface Fighter Strikes
DROPSHIPS
OFF-BOARD ARTILLERY
SPOTTERS & FORWARD OBSERVERS
Calling for a Fire Mission
RESOLVING A FIRE MISSION
THE NET-CENTRIC BATTLEFIELD
GRID QUALITY CHECKS
ADVANTAGES OF THE GRID
Increased Battlespace Awareness
Enemy Force Location
Precise Fire Missions and Air Strikes
Beyond Line of Sight (BLOS) Fire
Synchronized Fire
DISADVANTAGES OF THE GRID
Anti-Grid ECM
ECM Units
Loss of Grid
Irregular Units and the Grid
MIXED FORCE GAMES
IRREGULAR UNITS
Irregular Unit Command Issues
Leaders Attached to Irregular Units
Irregular Units in Supervision Range of a Regular Unit
Irregular Activation Check
IRREGULAR MORALE
Irregular Morale Checks
Irregular Morale Effects
Irregular Morale Effect Definitions
HOPPED UP UNITS
TO&E EXAMPLES
VEHICLE EXAMPLES
ALIENS
VICTORY POINTS
SUGGESTED VICTORY POINT VALUES

Space Monkey16 Dec 2009 7:08 p.m. PST

Here's mine:

Rules aren't limited to a particular size of miniature.

Ambush Alley Games16 Dec 2009 7:16 p.m. PST

Heh – yeah, that should have been on my list, too.

We don't do scale specific rules.

Marauder16 Dec 2009 7:58 p.m. PST

Will you Ambush Alley guys quit taunting us with these insights and get the damn product out and into our hands …. PLEASE

MiniatureReview16 Dec 2009 8:04 p.m. PST

nice list

clkeagle16 Dec 2009 8:13 p.m. PST

This question is similar to a blog post I've been contemplating. It may help me organize my thoughts.

Single figs or bases
-I'm still 50/50 on this question, but lately have been leaning towards bases.

Importance of infantry vs. armor vs. air support
-Infantry should be the "core" of the game. Armor should be there to support the infantry, not to dominate the battlefield. Air and artillery support should be VERY limited at this scale – I much prefer to see combined arms in 6mm.

Ranges
-Keep them simple and consistent. Premeasuring is fine.

Line of sight
-True LOS wherever feasible.

Dice
-All D6 preferred, all D10 acceptable after playing Forge of War. Do NOT bring other polyhedrals into a wargame – those belong in the pen-and-paper RPG world (in my opinion).

Morale
-Should integrate into command and activations, not dictate the rules altogether. Epic 40,000 in 1997 used a very complex morale system as a substitute for victory conditions and scenario objectives – this aspect ruined what was otherwise a brilliant wargame.

Close combat
-I played GW games for too many years, so I never want to see it eliminated. But for the most part, this should be restricted to bugs or Aliens-style creatures. Humans (or aliens remotely similar to humans) should only enter close combat as an absolute last resort, and it should be resolved very quickly. Prolonged close combat should be in fantasy gaming, not sci-fi.

Shooting/damage resolution system
-Should account for the damage of the weapon and the accuracy of the firer as simply as possible. In my opinion you should only have to look at two things when shooting – ONE chart and the firing unit stats. Modifiers should reflect the stat, not be applied to the roll (a subtle difference that greatly improves game speed). Any system that requires you to multiply, divide, or reference more than one chart, or make too many separate dice rolls will take the fun out of the game.

Complexity
-After three battles, you should be able to play with just a quick-reference sheet. This quick reference sheet should only be one page (two sided is okay). If the playsheet exceeds this, the game has too many charts. If the rulebook is constantly needed, the rules are too ambiguous.

Movement
-Shouldn't be a stat or a math problem. Ideally, universal movement rates should apply for broad categories like Infantry, Bike, Wheeled, Tracked, Grav.

Command points
Command ranges
-This type of wargame represents a battle. That battle, in "reality," may last anywhere from ten to thirty minutes. The "issuing orders" concept becomes fairly moot, as individual squads and units already have their orders. I'm fine with units having command tests to continue mission, but they shouldn't be dependent on their commander.

Weapon system detail
-Range, rate of fire, and damage. Nothing more.

Battle size
-An enhanced platoon to an enhanced company.

Game duration
-A one-hour pickup game should be feasible. Larger, more complex games should be resolved within two hours.

Things you've seen that you don't like (big one)
-Too much math
-Too many charts
-Too much close combat
-Not enough "sci-fi" in the sci-fi rules. FWC is a good example of this… it's a great game to play, but it really feels like sci-fi models playing a modern wargame.
-Not enough premade units. Having the ability to create and customize your own forces are great, but you should be able to play a game right out of the rulebook.
-Too expensive. There are numerous rulesets ranging from free to $20… If you're charging more than that, good luck competing in this hobby.

Things I've seen and liked:
-A complete product with pre-made units, scenarios, and campaign structures. FAD4 sets the bar pretty high in this category.
-Open and collaborative playtesting, either by forum or Yahoo group. Forge of War was a good mechanic. The Yahoo group's efforts made v2 into one of the best games available.

-CK-

Wellspring16 Dec 2009 8:16 p.m. PST

A game that combines both chutes AND ladders.

Ambush Alley Games16 Dec 2009 10:47 p.m. PST

@Wellspring: Surely you are mad, sir!!! Have you NO respect for the integrity of the very fabric of time and space!?

rescuescooter16 Dec 2009 10:52 p.m. PST

@ Ambush Alley; What about pointed sticks?!

Ambush Alley Games16 Dec 2009 11:20 p.m. PST

Let me add that to the list! ;)

Weasel16 Dec 2009 11:51 p.m. PST

FAD4 pretty much sums it up for me obviously, though we are working on a few cool bits to make "pick up and play" even easier

freewebs.com/weaselfierce

28mmMan17 Dec 2009 12:04 a.m. PST

AAG, is that it? Is that all you got? If you are going to put any effort into a set of rules then maybe you should consider some of the possibilities and the various aspects of the game itself. With your limited approach you may find many holes in your system.
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Joking of course, holy crud dude lol.

ghostdog17 Dec 2009 2:46 a.m. PST

If it´s a platoon level game, with individual miniatures, I would like to see diferences between kinetik and energy weapons regard to ROF, supression value, aiming, etc…

either if its a platoon level game or a company level game, I would like to see:

More movement for infantry units, in order to see more maneouver, instead of two armies deployed in line going straight against each other blazing their weapons.

infantry squad formations giving bonus or penalties to firing, moving and spoting.

tech level effects on comand system.

Von Trinkenessen17 Dec 2009 5:47 a.m. PST

The basing issue does not matter as proven by our UK demo game campaign over the last 5 years.I single base all my figures,my oppo multibases all his.

For visuals High Tech single bases, small sized units /platoons.
Lower tech (horde) armies multi based larged size units /platoons.
It means that it is possible to flank your high tech troops
and overrun them.

Example TOE
1) I use a 4man squad,17 man platoon mounted in 2 apcs with
the 17th man (commander) staying in one of the apcs to control action.
2) He uses 8man squad, 40man platoon.

It can get scary when they aren't stopping for ….

Mooseworks817 Dec 2009 7:27 a.m. PST

Ambush Alley, is "Tomorrow's War" the set in stone name of your future set?

Ambush Alley Games17 Dec 2009 10:11 a.m. PST

@28mm Man – I know, we really should try to cover more than just the obvious high-points, but I'm an Okie and you know how lazy we are! ;)

@wargamer1972 – Tomorrow's War is our strong working title. Unless we come up with something more evocative between now and completion of the print draft, that's what we'll go with. Better title suggestions are welcome, though!

Shawn

Personal logo javelin98 Supporting Member of TMP17 Dec 2009 3:14 p.m. PST

In keeping with the "Ambush Alley" and "Ambush Valley" theme, what about:

Neutron Alley
Plasma Alley
Tachyon Alley
Railgun Ambush
Railgun Alley
Orbital Ambush
Dropship Ambush
Alien Ambush
Lunar Ambush
Lunar Alley
Ambush Hive
Ambush Dropzone
Ambush Starport
Alien Alley
Xeno Alley
Teleport Alley
Android Alley
Anti-Grav Ambush
Hovertank Alley
Flechette Alley

etc., etc…

Ambush Alley Games17 Dec 2009 3:47 p.m. PST

Heh. Ambush Apogee was an early working title. ;)

Lampyridae25 Dec 2009 5:59 p.m. PST

How about Dropship Alley? Tilt o' the hat to Dropship Horizon! ;)

But I like Tomorrow's War too.

Mehoy Nehoy26 Dec 2009 9:01 a.m. PST

Tin Can Alley? I have a feeling that might have been done before…

Pole Bitwy PL26 Dec 2009 2:21 p.m. PST

Dropship Alley rocks :)

When can we expect a release announcement ?

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