"ECW flags: Manchester's Regt?" Topic

Hi,

I'm having trouble tracking down some E.C.W. flags. Can anyone tell me what colours and rank symbols were use for Manchester's Regt of Foote? I think it might have been dark blue, with red lozenges for rank.

If anyone knows of a sourc where I could find a list of E.C.W. regiment flags, that would be really appreciated.

Thanks,
Joe

Joe not sure on Manchester's I've a feeling its not known. Buy ECW Flags and colours, volume 1 English foot by Peachey/Prince from Caliver books.

The Sealed Knot regiment have a blue colour with lozenges which were on Manchester's coat of arms, I think, not for rank as I have seen a colour of theirs with a streamer for rank (with lozenges on the same flag). Peachey and Prince (the only reliable analysis of ECW uniforms and colours) gives no information on Manchester's flags which strongly suggests there is none.

As for the colours of their coats there is contradictory information, with one 1643 account having them with green coats lined red but in 1644 they are supplied with more red coats lined green. The suspicion is that the former is in error and that they had red coats lined green throughout.

Thanks for your help, guys. I'll definately get my hands on a copy of Peachey & Prince. The S.K. flag is the one I had in mind.

From what I've rea so far on the E.C.W., unforms, flags and C/Os were a bit of a continuity and organisational disaster, or at the very least a headache for the modern historian/wargamer.

Thanks again!
Joe

Joe,

That's the beauty of this period. Paint the uniforms however you fancy as there are few few references to contradict you!

Bill

Why not both green/red and red/green:
two suggestions:
I was informed that the red/green were of Manchester's own company and the green/red for the rest … cannot remember the source (I checked it and found the comment in a well-respected book).
Many of Manchester's regiments seem to have worn red.
or
The coat changed with replacement. More common than you think. I will not dare suggest Newcastle's in red coats and a re-equipment before Marston Moor!

Standards – we do not know. As so often about Parliamentary foot.

Thanks for those tips. I'm certainly going to enjoy the freedom in choice of colours. I eventually came to the same conclusion myself. Also handy is the fact that regiments from both sides wore the same most common colours.

picture

Now my only hesitation is whether to go for the Regiments present at Marston Moor, purely for the variety of renouned units (Blewcoats, Whitecoats, Manchester's Foote, Fairfax's horse, Cromwell's Ironsides, etc. and, of course some covenanters!) OR whether to do the regiments of the Northern Association.

The Sealed Knot website is very good for flags and uniforms

thesealedknot.org.uk

Hebburn Jon

As noted above the Sealed Knot often make up flags and uniforms where they aren't known. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever, I've done it for my armies when the real facts are missing. Its not hard to make up believable ECW flags either.

However, from time to time SK fiction is quoted as historical fact and the only book that addresses the known facts is the Peachy Prince volume. Other books on the subject are happy to quote sources that haven't been proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Thanks for the info. One thing I did notice is that the S.K. seem to have taken the 3 lozenges from two of te quarters of Manchester's coat of arms I know that that was common practice amongst the Royalists, so, though Manchester was a Parliamentarian, it isn't unreasonnable to believe that, as a Peer of the Realm, he would have used the same practice. This would explain why the lozenges are there, regardless of the rank of the officier whose flag it is.

I want to portray Lawrence Crawford's company in Manchester's regiment. We know 4 things which can help us guess at what his standard would be:
1. He was Sergeant-Major-General of the Foote at Marston Moor
2. He was therefore the second most senior officer in Manchester's Regt (after Manchester himself)
3. The lieutenant colonel's flag, in a regiment, was the company's coulour with a St George's Cross added in the top left corner.
4. The Lieutenant Colonel was the second most senior officer in the regiment.

Would you agree that this strongly suggests that Crawford's standard woud be as follows: Azure, three lozenges gules, a canton argent with cross gules?

Thanks,
Joe

Hang on Joe, Laurence Crawford had his own foot regiment in the Eastern Assoc surely?

Possibly bluecoats, possibly red colours,

Now come on you can't expect more than that for ECW!!

Ah… Damn. You're right; whenI first read his biography, I misread it and thought he integrated Manchester's regt, when he actually integrated Manchester's army. Hmm… Further reaseach needed.

Laurence Spring is your man with 'Armies of the Eastern Association' pamphlety sorta thing, available from all weirdly obscure bookshops. Though no mention of foot flags (due to total lack of real info I think) I'm afraid.

I have it somewhere, any odds and ends ask, and thou shalt receive…