"First game LASALLE rules" Topic

200 and ONE!

"Perhaps there is something of value here"

Ummmm, like what?
Oh, I know! Reviewers should ensure they have at least a semblance of understanding of the rules before they play them?

"but attacking Terry will not help".

Yeah, but it's cheap entertainment!
Seriously though,.. why claim that ("inadvertantly", as isn't that what reviews do?): here is a review of a rule set that may or may not influence your decision to purchase, based on false and inflammatory assertions / comments?
Terry dropped a bag of dead cats on the table and now wants' to play the victim; (and what's really funny / sad is some of you people are buying it).

Poor form old boy, very poor form.
Cheers

trailape.blogspot.com
P.S.
This thread isn't keeping me awake at night.

"Terry dropped a bag of dead cats on the table and now wants' to play the victim; (and what's really funny / sad is some of you people are buying it)."

Yes trailape. Sam's responses weren't enough to enlighten those beguiled by Terry's bewitching.

Good thing good folks like yourself stepped up to show the error in it all…

"Good thing good folks like yourself stepped up to show the error in it all…"

Do I sence a hint of sarcasm?
:o)

At any rate, we aim to please,..
Cheers

"What doesn't kill you; Hurts like hell"!

In responce to TERRY1956's challange I've started a AAR Post on my Blog:
PART 1 is here:

link

The jist is here:
Hi All
I thought I'd post an AAR and Review of Sam A Mustafa's latest offering "LASALLE".
So what is "Lasalle"?
Well from the HONOUR web page (Lasalle is a rule set within the HONOUR series):
The game is small-scale and tactical in nature, focusing on the movement of individual battalions and regiments of cavalry. The player will manage a small force of roughly a dozen units as he tries to complete some specific mission assigned to him, such as "Hold the village and our bridgehead at all costs!" or: "Drive the French from Plancenoit!"
Lasalle is ideal for a small gaming table, and it plays in real-time with most battles lasting 2-3 hours. It is perfect for pick-up games or tournament play. It therefore includes sample army lists enabling players to collect and paint typical small forces from a large number of possible nationalities.
Right then; let's see for ourselves!
I'll admit right from the start I am slightly bias towards Sam Mustafa's work. I have played his MIGHT AND REASON rules for the 7 Years War and really like his FAST PLAY GRAND ARMEE (FPGA) rules. I have high expectations that these rules will be well written in an easy to understand and logical manner that will give a realistic game, (as realistic as any game can be).
You'll find heaps of reviews of the rules on the web and in various magazines, so I'll stick to the basics and devote more effort to an actual After Action Report, ("Play Test" so to speak):
Presentation.
The rules are presented in a hard bound book with lots of illustrations and pictures of miniatures in scales from 6mm right up to 40mm. A sturdy book that can take the beatings one normally subjects their rules to; (and NO, I don't mean actually BEATING your opponent with the book, no matter how tempted to do so).
There are plenty of examples inserted at the appropriate places within the book, with diagrams to ensure that nothing is left in doubt. There are Army lists for the major combatants and most Minor States. Oddly enough there is no list for the USA(!?)
There is a Quick Reference sheet (QRS) of sorts in the book. I say "of sorts" because it's not a card like QRS, but rather pages. That said, you can download a QRS (exactly the same as that within the book) for free together with an Errata and "Tips and suggestions" and there is already a free Army List for the OTTOMAN EMPIRE. In fact, all future army lists will be available for free! It states in the "ARMY BUILDER section of the book:
"You will never have to buy and Supplements to play Lasalle"
Obviously Sam is no businessman in the mold of the teams at Games Workshop or Battlefront!
First Impressions
The rules are very well written.
Rather than writing the rules to mirror the sequence of play they are written in a logical order by way of introduction to the Sub-systems, thus enabling the reader to better understand each subsystem as they are introduced.
There are Advanced rules, Historical Scenarios, a FAQ section and as mentioned before, a QRS, an Army Builder and Army List section. A nother useful "bit" is the "Learning The Game Concepts section, dealing with Unit Sizes and Formations, Depicting Skirmishers, Fronts and Flanks, Terrain and lots more.
So How Does It All Play Out?
Well, like I said, i could rattle on about the actual rules and how well they are written and what nice quality the paper is and are the lists truly representational of the Armies they represent BLAH BLAH BLAH but let's face it, your here for the AAR and the pictures; sooooo…….

The Battle of Pyranesia, 1810
The French ORBAT
A Infantry Division from the Peninsular List:
2 x Veteran Infantry (plus 1 extra) = 3 Vet Btns
3 x Conscript Infantry (Plus 1 extra) = 4 Con btns
1 x Dragoon Regt
1 Divisional battery
Because the French are attacking in this game they get 1 extra Veteran Infantry and 1 extra conscript Infantry.
I also added an "Organic"Brigade of Light cavalry:
2 x Hussars
2 x Chasseurs (but I changed one of these to lancers ‘cause i wanted to see what effect lancers had).

The British ORBAT
An Infantry Division from the Peninsular List:
4 x Infantry
1 x Large Elite Infantry (these are not Guards, but for this game I've made them Guards)
1 Royal Artillery Battery
2 x Skirmisher Bases (95th Rifles?)
I also added a "Reserve" Dragoon Brigade:
2 x Large Heavy Dragoons
(this Bde should also have a Royal Horse Artillery (RHA) battery, but I don't have one. Instead I've added a Spanish Militia Battalion, (just for s' n' giggles).

I'll post the AAR and Pictures before the weekend is out!
I now have a Regimental Dinner to prepare for,…
Cheers
trailape.blogspot.com
UBIQUE!

Trailape,

Well done man! (that is not sarcasm!)

Have you also posted this as separate topic so folks not interested in this quagmire can see it too?

Looking forward to the next installment.

Who WOULDN'T be interested in this quagmire?

Lord Ashram,

Quite right. Forgive my fox paw! (that's a joke son).

Hi M C LeSingeDew

"Have you also posted this as separate topic so folks not interested in this quagmire can see it too"?

Hey, good idea!
I've posted "Trailape's Lasalle Review / ARR (long)" on the various sub-forums.
Cheers

Are we going for the magic 300?

What side am I on? I forget….

Clay tTg.

You are on the side of Truth and Justice as are we all surely?

Hi Guys
PART two (2) of my LASALLE review at my blog:
link

I've finished the battle, but still have yet to post all the pictures / comments to my blog.
I'll finish the report tomorrow night, but most of it's done and available for your viewing.
It played really well I thought,..
Cheers
trailape.blogspot.com

Played a great game of LaSalle yesterday, Brits vs. French, complete with a 'swirling" light cavalry duel on one of the flanks. Battle ended in a draw after we finished the bottle of cognac.

Trailape.

Nice clean layout. Looks good.

Can't help but notice the changing station in the background. True dedication to Nappies :)

The joys of gaming with small children in the house. Any old enough to help you with your games yet? My boy keeps making terrain out of foam, clay, and paper, God bless him!

Malaesta,

What did you like or not like about the rules?

Why are they better or worse then the competition?

MC LeSingeDew,

I really love this game. Clean, easy to understand, most everything seems to make sense in the context of outcomes. But, I should not post a review, since:

(1) Sam Mustafa ran the game (and took over the French right wing),

(2) I am one of the playtesters mentioned in the introduction to the rules. I have played literally dozens of times, if you include all the various versions of the game up through and including the published version.

I have obvious biases.

John

Malatesta,

Go ahead! State bias upfront (which you have done above) and the reader will take that into account.

All I've read so far is that people like/don't like them and they give a good or rubbish game, and it handles a division per side from preselected lists.

Terry, with whatever shortcomings there may have been, at least spoke to specifics as have only a few others.

So what makes Lasalle stand out from other offerings in terms of game play rather than presentation?

Hi MC LSD! (sounds like a "raper", yo yo yo)
I have 4 daughters!
My eldest is 23yrs (a Cop), next is a 22yrs (made me a Grand-dad twice now), then 11yrs and 14mths.
Another is on the way, (due July 21010)!
My 11 yo is interested, but mainly in WHF and Space Marines. She has played some Ancients, (DBA).
I hope I can swing her away from GW Warhammer X and towards "Historicals".
Cheers

Hi Terry 1956,

I have played Lasalle and even though I have very little experience, unlike yourself, I believe the game went fairly well.

I actually liked the rules so much, I played the same scenario twice.

Look see: fuentesdeonoro.blogspot.com

Well done Trailape!

MC LSD does sound like a rapper now you mention it.

It's an abbreviation for Monkey Cee LeSinge-Dew : )

Hi All
All 3 PARTS of the AAR is now available for your veiwing at:
link
Feel free to leave a comment.
Cheers
trailape.blogspot.com

Very enjoyable trailape.

So what sets Lasalle apart from its competitors?

Why buy this game instead of some of the others covering the same ground?

"So what sets Lasalle apart from its competitors?
Why buy this game instead of some of the others covering the same ground"?

1.Very EASY to play
2.Very Quick to play, (3 hours is plenty time for a decent size game I think).
3. Very well written, with no ambiguity.
4. Enough "Chrome" to enhance the game (Engineers, and other "niffty" advanced / optional rules) to provide "Flavour" to the period, but not so much you get bogged down.
5. Realistic, (as realistic any game can be I should add).

Some expansion on my comments from another post:

I played the game over 3 days, (because I was in the process of moving my apartment to my house, had a ton of "end of year" functions to attend, and have a very demanding 14mth old).
It would have gone for about 4.5 to 5 hours I think.
Now that I'm across the rules, about 3 hours would have done it.

What I meant by "..the rules reward reserves" is just that. If you (the player) can maintain troops in reserve and be the last player to commit them you'll probably be victorious. In my game the Brits had thrown everything in, and the French still had the Chasseurs a Cheval and about 2 fresh, uncommitted Battalions to throw in. Even though the 2nd Dragoons and 1st Foot Guards were doing well, they would soon be countered by Fresh units, or Infantry in their rear, (thanks to the failures of the Spanish militia to hold the town and the final collapse of the 7th Dragoons). The Highlanders would have been better off as a central reserve, (behind the town), and the 33rd should have formed square earlier, (probably on the reverse slope of Northern Hill).

A note on Basing for 28mm?
I'll probably go with 40mm square bases with 4 figs (2 x 2).
45mm x 40mm with a frontage of 3 figs in 2 ranks would also look good.

So for all the "Terry's" out there; have a carefull read of the rules, and give them a go.
Understand the level they are pitched at and understand the game concepts, and you'll realise that they are not "just Rubbish".
Different YES.
Rubbish,.. umm NO.
Cheers
Cheers

Thanks trailape!

In answer, any set of rules will allow people to play a game, Is that the point ???. For me I was interested in these rules as they stated plainly that they are a TACTICAL set of rules. OK, lets look at that, If you wish to play a game with know real historical meaning, then yes these rules will suit, but again whats the point.
The rules deal with light infantry in a take it all leave it manor, they add dice to the firepower. You can so many bases of light infantry but what about the light infantries ability to add more into the open order mode, Well not under these rules you can,t. So much for being true tactical rules, What about cavalry being able to dismount and carry out light infantry roles ( check waterloo ) will not under these rules.
why can,t infantry squares open fire ??? they did in real life, well not under these rules.
and I can go on and on. But the reason is that the rules are for people who just want a quite game, and no real input, You can,t even use historical orders of battle can you.
reason being because these rules are so abstract in the detail you may as well be playing anything.
Play a true historical reenactment with these rules, and lets see how you get on, until then forget anything napoleonic, put your figures back in their box and just roll dice around for 2 hours.
terry

Terry,

what rules do you suggest? What does live up to your expectations?

Still banging on, I see. And still not reading the book.

@ You can so many bases of light infantry but what about the light infantries ability to add more into the open order mode,

Didn't read page 74, did we? Using light infantry in woods and towns, breaking up large battalions into part skirmisher? Didn't read any of the "irregular infantry" bits at all, I assume?

@ What about cavalry being able to dismount and carry out light infantry roles

Never seen that in any Napoleonics game, but if you're dead set on having it, then just take off your Dragoons and replace them with irregular infantry. Or volunteer an optional rule on the website.

@ why can,t infantry squares open fire

As explained on page 63 – cleverly hidden in bold type and a specially colored box and under the heading "What do combat results represent?" The combat between the cavalry and square is the reason the Cav gets a DISR no matter what happens.

@You can,t even use historical orders of battle can you.

Didn't manage to read a whole chapter on Historical Scenarios, did we? (pages 82-85) Or visit the Scenario Wiki where they've already done about 8 new ones? Or even bother to read the introductory chapter where it explains how the numbers convert to bases?

@ I can go on and on.

I'm sure you can. And I'm sure you will. The question is: Why are you?

But I'd like to add my voice to Nick's, requesting that you please give us examples of all the Napoleonics rules that meet your exacting criteria. Given your superb attention to detail and high level of reading comprehension, I would be particularly interested to know which games you've mastered.

In various other threads, Terry has indicated that he is an 'Empire' man, and that most modern rulesets (not just 'Lasalle') are rubbish.

Terry
I think you want "Skirmish" rules, but on a GRAND scale.
CLEARLY, "Lasalle" isn't for you.
They suit me very well however.
Each to their own.

In various other threads, Terry has indicated that he is an 'Empire' man, and that most modern rulesets (not just 'Lasalle') are rubbish.

I'm absolutely gobsmacked that someone who appears to have so little reading comprehension that he can't read the Lasalle rules and understand them, suggests Empire as a game – unless there's a fast play version of Empire that I'm not familiar with, rather than the bloated, complicated rulebooks that I have seen?

"But I'd like to add my voice to Nick's, requesting that you please give us examples of all the Napoleonics rules that meet your exacting criteria. Given your superb attention to detail and high level of reading comprehension, I would be particularly interested to know which games you've mastered".

I second the request above!
I too quest for "the Holy Grail" of Napoleonic wargaming,..
(in the intrim, "Lasalle" will do).
Waiting with baited breath,…
trailape.blogspot.com

Terry mate

I said in an earlier post, go find a set of skirmish rules. Have a look at Sharp Practice or Perfect Captain.

And by one single statement you have demonstrated to me you have no clue as to what Napoleonic tactics are.

How can you POSSIBLY whine about squares not firing when it was the LAST thing they wanted to do when pressured by determined cavalry?

I'm not going to explain to you why this was so, you should know old bean.

It's like a trainwreck. I don't wanna watch, but I can't look away.

"It's like a trainwreck. I don't wanna watch, but I can't look away".

Sure Is!!

I'd also recommend SHARP PRACTICE, but I like those rules and don't wanna se Terry tear them apart,….

I fear this thread has run it's course,..
With no in-put from our Terry on what is a good set of Napoleonic rules I will now wander the Napoleonic wastelands un-fullfilled with a copy of "Lasalle tucked under my arm,… "sigh"

Let's keep it going.

Trailape, What was your preferred "petit-tactial" rules before Lasalle?

I'm not trailape, but before Lasalle, I didn't really have a preferred petit-tactical rule set. I mostly played Nap POW and Grand Armee.

I played Shako for many years.

Hi
I played (in the following order):
WRG (1689-1845??): They were OK, but I soon came to realise they were naff

ELAN and then ELAN DELUX: These were a "polished" version of WRG. Not bad, and now free.

HUZZAH!: I still like these. A bit like WARMASTER, (the ancient rules). Again, a good set.

Age Of Eagles (AoE): Not really petit tactical though. These were to set used by most guys I was playing with, so I just fell in line. Again, OK, but not really lighting any fires for me.

FAST PLAY GRAND ARMEE (FPGA): Napoleonics on a truly GRAND scale. I really like these rules, (Terry would HATE them).

LFS (From Too Fat Lardies):Not really petit tactical though. A great set though!

SHARP PRACTICE (again from Too Fat Lardies): Skirmish to LARGE Skirmish. FANTASTIC RULES for skirmish games.

I play British Grenadiers for AWI, and I've heard that General de Brigade is very good. For Napoleonics though, I think I'll be sticking with Lasalle; (unless Terry can provide advice on something that's better).

Thanks!

Been using Paddy Griffith's rules for brigade/division/army level games.

Recently tried Black Powder and quite like them but they are intended for a more toy soldier vice simulation experience.

For corps level and higher Snappy Nappy works a treat, although I prefer games where the smallest unit is a battalion even at the higher scales.

Been meaning to give Legacy of Glory a go. I can tell there is a good simulation in there but the writing of the rules themselves always put me off.

I was looking at getting a set and found this thread.

I went to the Football on Saturday, on the local radio afterwards they had people ringing including one guy who had not actually been there, questions were also asked about his ability to comment. So to be fair, not an uncommon situation.

Currently in London, anywhere here I can get a set? All the shops I remember seem to have closed.

Depends where in London you are … Leisure Games on the outskirts may have them, Orc's Nest near Leicester Square in the centre also may have them I saw Black Powder and the other new set blah blah to Empire so they may.

Many thanks, checked their web sites and looks like no go, I will certainly have a look at Orc's Nest next time I am that way. Looks very fantasy orientated but I guess that is where the business is.

A comment to Iggy Popsickle. I have not tried these rules, but I am following the banter. In response to your first post, any set of rules that has 70 or more pages is hardly a truly playable set. No wonder that the initial poster couldn't follow what's going on and missed a number of the rules. Does Lasalle have a summary set of pages that make playability higher??

any set of rules that has 70 or more pages is hardly a truly playable set.

As someone who's played Lasalle a few times, and as a wargamer who's played games with rules sets with many more than 70 pages to them, I strongly disagree.

[A comment to Iggy Popsickle. I have not tried these rules, but I am following the banter. In response to your first post, any set of rules that has 70 or more pages is hardly a truly playable set. No wonder that the initial poster couldn't follow what's going on and missed a number of the rules. Does Lasalle have a summary set of pages that make playability higher??]

A *HUGE* proportion of the page space in the Lasalle rulebook is taken up by either DIAGRAMS or EXPLAINATIONS and not just written rules.

The rules read very fast. These are the easiest to read rules I've ever seen. The book 'feels' small to me…wierd isn't it?

adcharley
I agree with the comments above from NTL and CtS.
A very well written, (best I've read at any rate) set of rules that anyone with half a brain could come to grips with within two or three turns of play.
:o)
(I'm not suggesting you fall into that category)

There is a QRS included in the book and also free for download.
I asssume you've read the reviews at:
link
and:
link
CHEERS
P.S. I still don't know what rules TERRY would recommend.

I'll third (or fourth) the playability – we are about 5 games in and don't even really look at the playsheet any more – there were hardly any things we did wrong even in the first game which is unusual :)

The book is heavily diagram wise which is leaves little for 'debate' when playing.

Some mob held off some other mob at some battle somewhere and so the question is asked: How can this situation possibly happen under these rules? … and so the rules are deemed to be rubbish.

For pity's sake. Please remember one and all – we are just pretending. Lasalle is not a simulation; it's just a game; a past-time; a hobby; something to do with your friends!

If you like Lasalle then play them; if you don't like them then don't play them; find something else that you do like.

I for one like them.

"For pity's sake. Please remember one and all – we are just pretending. Lasalle is not a simulation; it's just a game; a past-time; a hobby; something to do with your friends"!

Agreed, (to a certain extant): As stated in my previous post

"5. Realistic, (as realistic any game can be I should add)."

That said, I do want my rules to go as close as possible to simulating what happened (in this case) on a Napoleonic battlefield; (less all the blood, gore, sensless slaughter, etc,..).
We are after all reducing the most violent of human endevour to a game,..