"GW doing WWII" Topic

Anyone know much about the page 4 article in the December issue of Wargames Illustrated about GW (not Warhammer Historical) releasing a WWII rulebook and theatre supplements and models in 20mm? Is this a skirmish game etc? Are they taking on Battlefront in a battle of gaming empires?

WH is now part of GW again, I believe it is in the Forge World subdivision.

Really? Models as well? Not sure how much of a good idea that is – 20mm/1:72 is already VERY well served.

I found some more info. It will be a Warhammer Historical release. So figures/models are probably a no go.

"WH is now part of GW again…"

Never was not, not in the last seven years.

Ummm… seven years… never…. never mind.

Where's this more info then?
This sounds like a good thing to me.
Not really feeling the need for another ruleset but another excuse to persuade the GW gang that 20mm ww2 is the way forward. Yes please.

"I found some more info."

All I've seen so far is what I'd give a D3 rating…

Allen

There was considerable speculation that the origin of Flames of War was a set of home-brewed Warhammer WW2 rules that used to be on the 'Net a few years ago, fueled no doubt by the fact that the author was from N.Z., as was Battlefront.

Yes, Phil Yates wrote Warhammer Panzer Battles, which was a variant of WH40K. There was no interest at GW in publishing it, and he got an offer from Battlefront to write a new set. Missed opportunity by GW. But no other connection between the two.

Allen

There were a lot of ex GW people at Battlefront – Matt Fletcher was my Boss at GW Leicester way back.

A game designed for 20mm gaming is nice to hear. It can only improve the availability of stuff in that scale – and don't say it's all covered – there isn't a good set of plastic 1/72 Sov Infantry out there.

Pat

Sure, new rules are always cool. An actual rule set without figures would be nice, though I don't need any new games, myself. Why not?

But Jesus, please no figures from these people, please. They've already done so much to destroy the concept of realistic human form by taking cool looking sculpts for sci fi creatures and applying it to humankind. The consequence has been that so many folks out there simply feel pumpkin heads, short stumpy limbs, pie plate hands, gaping maws look like realistic presentations of the human form, despite ample photographic evidence to the contrary. Oh and the telephone pole size weapons so that "one can see across the table what a figure is carrying". (we need a gif for barfing up)

Except for Britannia and probably Dixon, this sort of sculpting disease has not widely infected the 20mm community. GW would probably see to it that it does…
--
Tim

I saw it ran at a recent 'not' Warhammer Historical weekend.
The game's by Warwick Kinrade and has no resemblance to Warhammer Firefight, Rob's old project. Nor is it similar to any current Warhammer mechanism, so people looking for a 'Warhammer WW2' will be disappointed. FOW and Blitzkrieg Commander can breathe easy though. :-)

It was platoon scale, so expect some tanks but not skirmish level.

As to how good it is, well there's a lot of good rules already out there, will it be innovative enough to stand above the rest? That I can't answer until I've read through the final copy and played a few games – which probably won't be until it comes out.

Guy

Cool. German Panzer Grenadiers with skulls on their helmets. Russians in padded cold weather gear with spikey shoulder pads. The Brits will have streamers and battle ribbons hanging from their gear…and scrolls…can't forget the scrolls everywhere.

Pete

Special Rules for each army! Separate Books for each army and Period! Rules designed to encourage you to buy figures Just because you can! Players who don't give a for the background, as long as they can twist the lists to give them a better chance of victory!

Ah.

Pat

Sarcasm Alert! Sarcasm Alert! ;) ;) ;)

I hope they support it in their stores, it actually might compel me to take a trip to my local battle bunker

I would not stock these at my store.

I do WAB as a special order.

Scale at 20mm is OK as long as they would expect people to use 15mm as well. Would this be a problem with GW sanctioned tournaments?

"Special Rules for each army! Separate Books for each army and Period! Rules designed to encourage you to buy figures Just because you can! Players who don't give a for the background, as long as they can twist the lists to give them a better chance of victory"

Sounds like FOW to me. :)

I shoulda used more smilies……

Pat

Sloppypainter -- you just described Warzone! ;-)

Great screamin' googly-mooglies…so I did!! LOL

"and don't say it's all covered – there isn't a good set of plastic 1/72 Sov Infantry out there."

I would have to differ-

link

link

link

link

(and, yes, that last one was a joke! )

Two sets of what looks like Wargames Factory Romans, some Naval Infanty and the toys from the middle of Kinder Eggs?

Differ away, I remain obdurate.

Pat

Why not go for 25/28mm then they could get the crossover of people playing 40K. They could start customizing Imperial Guard Germans, Brits, G.I.'s etc!

Plus I want more nice toys & vehicles for 28mm!

As far as rules are concerned, GW is next to worthless, unless it's a one off game that they don't care about, BFG for example.

"…the toys from the middle of Kinder Eggs?"

I thought that was the definition of "1:72 plastic figures".

Allen

"They could start customizing Imperial Guard Germans, Brits, G.I.'s etc!"

They've alreay go the Soviets covered. I have a friend who has been trying to convince me for years to accept Cadians as Canadians.

Curious move if they intend on mainstreaming the product through stores – they run the risk of the captive kid market suddenly discovering the rest of the hobby (and cottoning onto the fact that GW pricing is massively high).

In cynic mode, there's more than a whiff of desperation about some of their moves of late.

"I shoulda used more smilies……

Pat"

And I should have read further down before choking on my tea. :)

Cheiftain, I'm not sure why people continue to say that GW pricing is particularly high. Could you give some examples? I know historical plastics can be had for fairly cheap, but when it comes to fantasy, I've found that lately, GW tends to be cheaper. Metals on the other hand, they are about the same as everyone else.

KaneBlaireau, the GW overpriced meme is just that, a meme. I think what some people do is see one or two miniatures in a vacuum, this reinforces their preconcieved ideas about GW pricing, and go and spread the meme more.

GW characters tend to be "overpriced" at $15 USD – $20 USD for a man-sized figure. Thing is, how many of these are you going to have (in WHFB usually a couple), whereas the rank-&-file troops are ignored. Looking at the Dwarf longbeards ( link ), they come out to be $4.95 USD per figure. Compare that to Reaper Warlord dwarfs ( link ) which come out to be $4.44. The GW dwarves are overpriced by $0.51 USD per figure, not a lot in my book (it comes out to be that GW is $10 USD more per a unit of 20 figures compared to Reaper Warlord). Note this is after the price increase; previous to this GW was underpriced compared to the industry (at $4 USD per a figure, a really good deal comparatively speaking). I won't get into plastics.

So of GW figures are overpriced, for the rank and file it is marginally so.

Damon.

Metals on the other hand, they are about the same as everyone else.

What planet are you living on?

One where people can do arithmetic, apparently.

Allen

GW pricing is "massively high" when you don't compare apples to apples. WWII 25/8mm figures for skirmish games are cheap, cheerful, and $1 USD per, or can be if you choose to purchase those brands. But GW don't make those, they make highly detailed (in my mind totally ridiculous looking) sci-fi and fantasy figs that you pay more than $4.00 USD a pop for.

If GW are releasing WWII rules then there is a very good chance that people intersted in it will find that you can have great fun not spending $4 USD for a metal line trooper, $15 USD for his boss, and $35 USD for his car. Just like they did when WH:Ancients and etc. were published.

Victory Force miniatures are the most detailed "28mm" WWII skirmish figures I know. Their Brits are $3 USD apiece. I doubt GW could come up with sculpts whose quality would justify an extra $2. USD

Especially when you take into account that GW would have massive runs, hence much cheaper per-item costs than VF, which is essentially a luxury niche brand.

One where people can do arithmetic, apparently.

Black Tree Design 3 Vermen Assassins for £2.38 GBP link OK it's a half price sale.

Games Workshop Skaven Assassins £6.85 GBP for one , £7.85 GBP if you want the new totally overblown one. link

You're getting the cart before the horse.

With the move of Warhammer Historicals to Forge World, the whole schedule is shot.

Haven't heard anything about the release of the latest expansion to the Great War, or the new edition of Ancient Battles. Both were supposed to be released some time ago.

IF and it's an IF the WWII book sees the light of day, I'm sure it will be a nice looking book and probably a fine game.

After their latest witch hunt of several fan sites threatening to steal their IP (what a joke),and the 6-8 week fiasco of getting a new box for my $100 USD copy of Space Hulk, I've about had it with them.

I just can't keep paying into a company that keeps dissapointing me.

The major dfference Derek is that the BTD ver'men figures look like crap compared to the GW ones. Of course YMMV; if you're happy with the BTD figures, have a ball. I use a lot of the old Harlequin dwarfs myself.

You will always be able to find a cheaper substitute, but IMHo those are often inferior goods in my mind.

Damon.

Garand, thanks for that breakdown. Very nicely done.

DJButtonup, fair assessment.

Pierce Inverarity, most likely true, but GW would probably make them in plastic and their plastics are VERY affordable.

Derek H, excellent price. Very much so! However, to my eye, those are incredibly boring models and I'm rather a fan of the overblown GW style.

Once again, though, for large scale skirmish/small scale wars, GW plastics are hard to beat pricewise. They can be had from discounters as low as $1 USD a figure. For skirmish, their metals are most definitely unevenly priced, with Lord figures commanding inflated prices. I suppose the excuse of only needing one of these in each army can explain away some of that. Large profits explain the rest. Have to offset the low cost of troops somewhere, I guess.

If you want to play Warhammer40K, there is one main supplier, and a number of similar knock-offs. If you want to play 28mm WWII or 20mm or just about any size you want, there are dozens of suppliers, running from cheap to expensive. GW isnt actualy stupid. many of them seem to be aware of thier market niche.

I doubt that if they introduced a range of very expensive cartoonish WWII troops they would do very well. Most likely they know a lot more about it than me. So they probably wont do that.

Maybe they will produce a game worth playing. If they do, great I will try it out. And if not, well I have a whole bookshelfs worth of games of different periods that I will nevr play, because of this or that problem with the rules. I dont see that a game from GW that ends up there is any worse than any of the others.

20mm x 72 = 1m44 = 4'8"
21mm x 72 = 1m51 = 4'11
22mm x 72 = 1m58 = 5'2"
23mm x 72 = 1m65 = 5'5"
24mm x 72 = 1m72 = 5'8"

So, are they 20mm or 1:72? I will buy them to go with TW&T.

20mm is usually used to describe 1/72 scale figures, though in fact the figures could actually be anywhere between 1/87 to approx 1/72.

Damon.

20mm is the measurement from the eye to the foot, not the top of the head. Back in the day they were measuring guys who wore huge, oddly shaped hats with funny names so the top of the head couldn't be located…

25mm cartoonish figs have already been tried. It's a part of what helped to kill the Battleground WWII rules franchise.

Thanks,

John

If GW is really going to jump into WWII because they're desperate, they wouldn't choose 20mm/1/72 (the so-called 'one true scale') because they wouldn't sell as many miniatures given the number of other manufacturers out there in this scale that are cheaper.

They should stick with 'heroic' 28mm and release armies in plastic and in pre-packaged boxsets.

Warhammer Histoicals never makes minis to go with their games, and it hasn't seemed to hurt GW's sales yet.

"Warhammer Histoicals never makes minis to go with their games"

they never will either.

"Warhammer Histoicals never makes minis"

"they never will either"

Click on the link and look at the new products on the left side of the page.

warhammer-historical.com

Nods, but Rat, I always understood them to be Perry Figures 'Guesting' as Warhammer Historicals figures.

Certainly i think "Warhammer Historicals will never makes a significant range of minis to go with one of their games" would be true.

Pat

Those are re-released special/limited edition dioramas originally made to tie in with the launch of certain Supplements (for instance a Spartacus diorama to support/promote, well, the release of the Spartacus Supplement).

They are nothing but promotional gimmics (albeit very nicely sculpted). A handfull of limited edition themed dioramas are a far cry from actually releasing a range of wargaming miniatures.

Forgeworld and GW don't do proper historical figures and aren't about to start either, for the reasons others have mentioned. WH has always been the poor relation in GW and even under Forgeworld it appears it will remain so.

Having said that I would offer the opinion that much of GW's LOTR range has been far less cartoony than is typical in their Warhammer ranges – with correctly proportioned weapons being a very welcome sight. Beautiful to look at, masterly made and some of it could even just about pass for Dark Age historical with just a minimum of effort(I'm thinking certain examples of the Rohadrim and Dunlendings here – possibly the Haradrim as well). More by accident than design I grant, but still, its there. ;)

The closest you'll get to "accidental" GW World War II figures is the 40k Imperial Guard I'm afraid, which sadly isn't in the same league at all.

Regarding 20mm WWII: This sounds suspiciously like yet another Warmaster conversion, which is entirely possible. However it would be Rules and supplements only, no figures.

If they did decide to do a plastic 1:72 WWII range they have the manufacturing facilities, the die making expertise and the sculptors to do it. Perrys have made WWII 20mm for foundry before and others in the GW fold produce WWI under their own brands.

Unlikely yet possible

Although 28mm hard plastic sounds good too.

Just as long as they don't do the agh i'm dead figure.

1) I actually ASKED in a GW store today and they knew absolutely nothing about any proposed WW2 release

2)They completely fail to make any obvious mention on their website.

3)
24 plastic figures at GW – £16.00 GBP ~67p each
52 at Victrix £20.00 GBP ~38p each
68 at Valiant £10.00 GBP ~15p each (26-27mm(
That looks a bit more firm than just people badmouthing GW, it is actually more expensive. My GW example is the LotR boxed sets. WH40K troops, nothing special, just normal grunts, are often more than £1.00 GBP per plastic figure. Worst is 3 chaos marines for £5.00 GBP – £1.66 GBP each.

4) Given that human bodies are in proportion, except for those with rare genetic diseases, the eyes are 95% of the overall height. At 20mm that is 1mm either way. Why the hell would anyone measure anything to 95%, then pass off the result as the 'height'.

And unless you are fighting purely with nations whose average male height is 4'8", and they will never be put against those of European or African descent, 1:72 is never 20mm, no matter how many wargamers click their heels 3 times and wish it so.