"Origin of the term "Charlie"" Topic

Does anyone know where the term Charlie came from? All I can seem to find is that it was from Vietnam, but I was recently shown a book by one of the TAs in my history class, written in 1948 about the 101st airborne in WW2 which frequently referred to the Germans as "Charlie". Now I am incredibly curious and I can't seem to find anything on Google.

I always thought it referred to the VietCong which is abbreviated to VC which has a code sign of Victor Charlie, which then becomes just Charlie in common slang.

I thought Germans were called Fritz in WWII by US troops. Isnt that why the helmet that replaced the good old pot was called Fritz?

BravoX is correct in his statement. In training we would refer to contact with irregular Viet troops as Victor Charlie when on the radio or in SitRep reports.

Doug is also right about the Fritz but other slang terms for the Germans included Jerry and Hun.

Fritz, Willy, Jerry, Kraut. All sorts of mean and dehumanizing words, (most expanded from 4 letter words).

I like watching WWII propaganda movies and listening to the terms.

MR. CHARLIE, when referring to the VC. He was
*that* good.

I've always wondered where the Brits got Jerry.

Mean and dehumanizing? A little I guess, but I assumed Fritz was because it was a common German name…Hun because they invaded through Belgium in WWI (like Huns). Kraut because they grew cabbage and ate Sauerkraut right? Pretty tame IMO.

Am I missing something here with the 4 letter words?

I'd hate to think my dirty language dictionary was missing some etymology…

What about Bosch or Bosche--I don't see or hear that one much. Wonder where that came from.

Since we were trying to kill the enemy anyway, I fail to see how calling them a mean name is a big issue. I suspect it a practice as old as war itself. I can't see how being sensitive to the enemy's feelings would help in killing them. In fact, taking away his humanity makes pulling the trigger that much easier, which is the intent.

Jerry comes from Ger….man, typical Brit trick of shortening a name and sticking a y (or ie) on the end

Thanks Black Bull. I thought that might be it, but doubted for a second because I thought it had to be more complicated than that. :)

What about Bosch

A surname the French started using it a good time ago for Germans and we copied the French.

x42

Bosche is French, though I don't know where it comes from.

To British soldiers serving in Italy, the Germans were called 'Teds', after Tedeschi, which is the Italian for a German.

"Charlie" was used on the Goon Show (British radio show with Peter Sellers, Spike Milligan etc. – all WWII vets too) for anyone who was a sucker or fool. One episode was entitled "Six Charlies in Search of an Author", for example.

The Hun thing for Germans actually came from the Kaiser's own mouth – he told German troops leaving for the Boxer Rebellion affair to make an impression on the Chinese like the Huns made on Europe (or something along those lines).

Chris

boy wundyr x

so was "Charlie" a term from before the show that was slang for sucker? If Im not mistaken the Goon show started in 51, but the book that used "Charlie" was from 48.

Back then we had Jerry… Now we have Terry ('Terry Taliban').

Charlie in UK usage pre dates WW2 it comes from Cockney rhyming slang 'charlie ronce' = ponce

I think Black Bull gave the best answer for Charlie, at least in British use; I'd never heard that before. I was thinking that if it was pop culture in the 1950's, it must have had some history to it, possibly from the Goon Show gang being vets (but I guess not now after Black Bull's response).

Of course with the Goon Show, it was also entirely possible they just made it up!

Chris

BravoX's explanation makes the most sense. In the NATO phonetic alphabet, "Victor" is V and "Charlie" is C. If you were going to say VC for "Viet Cong" on the radio or in a noisy environment like a firefight or around motor vehicles, you'd be trained to say "Victor Charlie".

And military cultures have their own slang that they adopt from formal usage. It's easy to see how "Charlie" was derived from "Victor Charlie".

We see this today too. Authentic military dialog is full of similar terms. For instance "We have to Oscar Mike" means let's get going, it came from "Oscar Mike" which is how you say "OM" which is an abbreviation for "On the Move".

Wikipedia article on spelling alphabets including NATO phonetic alphabet: link

Wikipedia article on Viet Cong including an explanation of how "Victor Charlie" was derived: link

Wikipedia article on US Military acronyms and expressions, including Oscar Mike: link

"Charlie" is the third letter in the phonetic alphabet used by anyone having speak over radios. The military has used it (with some variation) for many years. Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, etc.

VC (Viet Cong) would be said "Victor Charlie" or just "Charlie" for short.

Don't forget "Tango Uniform"

"Vietnamese Communists" was what they were referred to by American forces, how that was not what they called themselves.

As for "Boche" check out:
link

Mean and dehumanizing? A little I guess, but I assumed Fritz was because it was a common German name

"Tommy" must be devastatingly dehumanizing.

Don't forget "Tango Uniform"

No idea what that means. They were the letters commonly used in call signs for armour in a combined arms combat team or battle group in the Cold War era. I'd be Tango 2-1 (B squadron/company, 1 troop/platoon) while the corresponing grunt platoon would be India something or other.
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Tim

Is there any sinister meaning behind the name of the cartoon character "Charlie Brown"?

"Tango Uniform" substitutes for "tits up", indicating a supine position, in repose; variously: dead, deceased, defunct, inoperative, not working.

Allen

>>> Is there any sinister meaning behind the name of the cartoon character "Charlie Brown"?

Supposedly, Charles M. Schultz, the creator of "Peanuts", named the character after Charles Brockden Brown, the author of a favorite 18th century American epistolary novel, "Edgar Huntly":

link

Allen

Leadjunky

'Since we were trying to kill the enemy anyway, I fail to see how calling them a mean name is a big issue'

I tend to be with you on that, but Sir Winston Churchill disagreed: "When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite"

In the Rhodesian Bush War, the 'gooks' were known as 'C.T.'s – communist terrorists. A drinking mate of mine who fought in the war with the RLI and has the double-barrelled surname 'Campbell-Thompson' is still known as 'Communist Terrorist'.

Interesting discussion. The names and ways the Allies used to depict the Germans and Italians doesn't hold a candle to how they characterized the Japanese when it comes to mean and dehumanizing. The Germans and Italians were 'like us', after all, since most of the Americans fighting in Europe were of European descent, some of them off the boat themselves – and the troops even realized that then. But the Japanese were a foreign people all together – a foreign species or race, as they would have described them back then.

According to link :

charlie – foolish person, (usage typically 'he's a right charlie' or 'a proper charlie') – the use of charlie to mean a foolish person is from the cockney rhyming slang expression Charlie Smirke (= Berk, which in turn is earlier rhyming slang Berkley Hunt for the unmentionable – think about tht next time you call someone a charlie or a berk…). The original Charlie whose name provided the origin for this rhyming slang is Charlie Smirke, the English jockey. Charlie Smirke was a leading rider and racing celebrity from the 1930s-50s, notably winning the Eclipse Stakes at Sandown Park in 1935 on Windsor Lad, and again in 1952 on the Aga Khan's horse Tulyar (second place was the teenage Lester Piggott on Gay Time).

"Tango Uniform" substitutes for "tits up",

Ah, thanks for that. We just used "tits up" to yell at a student or junior crew commander who placed himself in a fire position too far forward, ie, not hull down.
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Tim

On Sundances comment, I was watching The Fighting SeaBees the other day (slacking as usual and it was on the box: what can I say!). The Japanese forces were called (if I remember correctly) "Bug Eyes Howling Monkeys" by one of the American characters (can't remember which one) which was certainly impolite.

But – at that point – we were at war with the Japanese. If the film Platoon was to believed, the first casualty of war is the truth. The second 'casualty' – by necessity – surely has to be dealing with people in a sportsmanlike manor, despite Mr Churchill's opinion to the contrary!

John T

"When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite"

All respect to Mr. Churchill but *cough* BS *cough*

When you have to kill a man there is nothing polite about it so why put up the facade?

A couple of related questions tangential to this fascinating discussion:

--When did the original Viet Minh become known as the Viet Cong, and why?

-- Cockney rhyming slang, is this codified in some form, or is it continually evolving and changing? I mean, I understand where it comes from, and how it works (sort of), I just don't get the connection between the terms. It all seems non-sequitor. Berkely Hunt, I mean, might just as well be Berkshire Punt or Allan Funt or whatever. Why is "loaf" slang for "head" as in "loaf of bread" = "head"? Loaf of bread? OK, then why not "Uncle Fred"? So is "uncle" now cockney rhyming slang for "head" by this process? (Presumably not since I'm not Cockney.) Who makes this stuff up and how does it enter the language? I want to know how one set of nonsense words came to be chosen over others. is there a pattern (like Pig Latin?) I can't detect? If the intent is to confuse outsiders, it certainly succeeds!

It's Boche, not Bosch. They don't make power tools.

Piper909, no it isn't codified. There is no Royal Academy of Cockernee. It is like any other slang. Some things catch on, some don't. However it works with language in general, that's how it works with rhyming slang.

And yes, it is always changing and new stuff comes along. For instance, Pete Tong for wrong, as in "It's all gone a bit Pete Tong." That one is from the 1990s or 2000s (Pete Tong is a radio DJ).

Rhyming slang changes on practically a daily basis, its like a game almost. The protaginist is almost challenging the listener to work out the convoluted references he is using. Often living in London you occasionally hear stuff which is pure poetry and might relate to something that only became current hours before. It doesn't always have to rhyme, either. The majority of stuff you hear is pretty mundane but every now and again you get a gem.
A favourite I heard a while ago was when someone refered to 15 pounds as a "Lionel"…it took me about an hour to work it out.
A "Lady Godiva" is a "Fiver" i.e. Five pounds.
"Once, twice, three times a lady"= A song by Lionel Ritchie.
Hence, A "Lionel"
Priceless.

Possibly the most convulted stuff involves 2 rhymes. Take an old phrase: The ryhming slang "'Arris" meaning someones rear end…why? it doesn't rhyme with anything…apparently.
Until you work out that "Arris" is short for "Aristottle" which rhymes with "bottle" which is short for "bottle and glass" which rhymes with "Ars*" Hence: "Arris"
easy.

"It's Boche, not Bosch. They don't make power tools. "
Oh but they do.
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