"A Mark V in Berlin" Topic

I recently bought a copy of Britain at War, primarily because they had an article about the British Mk V Heavy tank of World War One. I was intrigued to read about the possibility that a Mk V saw service in the defence of Berlin in 1945!

I've had a scan of that font of all knowledge (real and made up) called the Internet and found a couple of pictures of the Tank [ picture ] and [ picture ]. My question is can anyone on TMP point me in the direction of any more information about this?

One of the suggestions was that this was a former White Russian tank captured in operation Barbarossa and brought to Berlin, then pressed into service as a pill box in the final defence of the city. It certainly sounds desperate enough to be true but is there any evidence for this other than the pictures linked above?

BigLee
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This has come up a couple of times on TMP. There are several other photos showing the same tank, & some have suggested that they're faked. Personally I think they are genuine although some have been 'artistically' enhanced by the photographer. The story as I have it is that the tanks were Estonian relics, left over from the RCW, taken as souvenieurs by the Russians & subsequently by the Germans, but there are a number of variations on the theme.

I've always wanted to give one of the more fanatical panzer fanciers one of these in a Defence of Berlin scenario – not quite the Mark V that he'd expect to command!

Whether true or not, it would make a great scenario.

There are a couple of photos over on The Guild forum.

The tanks (and a few old guns) were on the Museum island in Berlin, just rusting relics and not "runners".

The photos provided in the first post show the tank on Museum Island, outside the Berliner Dom (cathedral), in the area known as the Lustgarten. link
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Heavy fighting occurred here during the Battle for Berlin, though I have been unable to find any accounts of the action in this particular area.
Anyone have any good leads?

The picture links don't work.

Like Huw R Davies has mentioned it has been brought up a few times. I mention in one of the threads that I had posted a coupla pics on another discussion site about it. Robert

WWI Tanks in WWII
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It would make a great scenario, but would have to be fantasy. There's nothing at all authoritative to suggest the story is true, and among the four or five pix that purport to show a (the) Mk V in Berlin, two of them are obviously photoshopped.

Here is few of them on flickr. Robert

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The tanks being there… True

The tanks being used to fight… False

The tanks belonged to the war exhibition of the "Zeughaus" (Armoury) museum (now the German Historical Museum), actually standing in the "Lustgarten" just around the corner of the "Berliner Dom", which some folks always mistake as the Reichstag building. The Dom would be on the right side of the tank. The Museum showed WW2 war booty incl. "Beutefahrzeuge" of the WW2 German campaigns of all fronts. The tank stood (actually there are two tanks!) in front of the museum flanked by Soviet arty guns. This one and others were captured ex-Russian Mk V (!) tanks by the Germans when they attacked the Soviet Union and brought to Berlin. The contents of the Zeughaus were totally bombed-out, the tanks and guns only survived because they stood outside. The tank was never moved from the "Lustgarten."

And just what do you do in a Lustgarten?

And even with all that the Germans left some Mk V's behind in the USSR – see link

And see link for a thread on another forum about it – including a photo of some Germans walking by…:)

And of course there were the Estonian ones too :) Robert

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WWI Tanks in WWII
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Robert, it's a bit late, but the guy who said: "Also Canada bought a large batch of Renault FT's" should be corrected – We purchased exactly 3 of these from the US. They operated at base Borden, in Ontario. They certainly didn't buy or train with the other heavier tank mentioned, either.
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Tim

Hey Tim. So the FT's on the train cars in the pic in post #211 were not the ones sold to Canada for "scrap"? Though they were known as the "Six Ton Tank M1917" or Renaults at that time.

"In 1940 the Canadian Army bought 250 surplus examples at scrap value (about $240 USD each) and the Armoured Corp gained valuable experience and training on them before embarking on Europe and using the more modern equipment."

and this,
"In 1940, the Canadian Armoured Corps was formally established (the Royal prefix was granted in 1945). As its first senior officer, Colonel Worthington bought 265 US-built Renault tanks of First World War vintage to use in training. Because U.S. neutrality laws prohibited the sale of weapons to Canada, these antiques were bought for $120 USD each as scrap metal from the Rock Island Arsenal by the "Camp Borden Iron Foundry"."

The photo of the FT's came from this article.
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And this too,

"US M1917 tanks were purchased by the Canadian government, at $20 USD a ton plus a 100% mark up which means that each tank actually sold for $240. USD The 236 tanks were shipped to Camp Borden where for nearly 2 years they proved a useful training vehicle. They were known to break down often, catch fire, and gave a bone jarring ride due to the lack of a suspension, but the soldiers learned maintenance and endurance. Since there was no onboard radio, the soldiers learned hand and flag signals and became proficient dealing with poor communications while still maintaining and executing formations. Hats off to the Canadians!"

"By 1939 all U.S. Mark VIII tanks were in storage at Aberdeen Proving Ground and had been there since 1934. Any serviceable units were sent to Canada to aid in tank training in 1939. The unit shown here was assigned to the United States 67th Infantry Regiment who principally operated the 100 units that were produced between 1918 and 1919. The large cylinder on top was a water tank. The Mark 8 had terrible cooling problems associated with it's engine. Over the life of this tank, deliberate efforts were done in an effort to improve it's abilities and increase crew comfort. However, by the time Canada purchased them, they were totally obsolete."

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"In the book "TANKS OF THE WORLD 1915-45" by Chamberlain & Ellis. On pages 168 they state TWICE that the Mk.VIIIs were sent to Canada in 1940 for training the Fort Garry Horse. However, all the more reliable current sources make no mention of MK VIIIs, and refer only to the six-tonners that did arrive."

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"The Americans fared a tad better with their Mk VIII production. At least 100 systems were produced between 1919 and 1920, ultimately supplying the 67th Infantry (Tank) Regiment. These tanks survived up to about 1932 to which they then ended up in Army storage facilities. At the outbreak of World War 2, the Canadians were in dire need of tanks for training and purchased the remaining Mk VIIIs on the cheap. Such ended the legacy of the Mark VIII "International Tank"."

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"The US had removed the Mark VIII from service by 1932, but some of the tanks were transferred to Canada for use as training vehicles after the start of World War II."

afvdb.50megs.com/usa/mkviii.html

Was Chamberlain & Ellis wrong? Robert

I forgot to mention that the article mentioned above was from the January 1941 issue of Popular Science LOL. Robert

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Was Chamberlain & Ellis wrong?

No, it would appear that I am.
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Tim

No Prob there Tim :). BTW If you didn't notice I was the poster there LOL. :) JCFalkenbergIII. Robert

Here is a nice shot of a M1917 '6-ton' tank :).

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Robert

Back to the German MK.VIII. IF it was used for a pillbox like some have suggested just imagine how cramped it would have been. Robert

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Seriously though, I am quite positive that at one point in time, all the RCAC had were just three M1917s to train with. I'm certain I recall that from the corps history, some time in the 30s, but I don't trust my memory in that regard now!
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Tim

Perhaps they had just 3 for training during the 30s Tim. But they did get alot more in 1940 :). Robert

I just picked up a copy of Armour in Profile #19 Tank MK VIII
" The International" and on the last page is a nice shot of the US MK VIII at the Aberdeen Maryland tank graveyard dump in 1939 before they were shipped to Canada. Robert

I forgot to mention that I had just picked up a few publications on the FT-17 and Mk VIII. All very good reads. I highly recommend Armor PhotoGallery #15, French Light Tank Renault FT,U.S. 6-Ton Tank M1917 by Witold J. Lawrynowicz. Tons of pics and alot of information of its long service. Robert