"Why was the Guard pants at Waterloo?" Topic

Gazzola

My, dibble had been busy. But not sure why he has posted the extracts about the Guard being repulsed. I think you will find that it is in virtually every book on the battle?

It's answering the O.P's question. Ever heard of 'related/connected evidence', or 'driving the nail home'? Oh! And most of those accounts I published elsewhere so I wasn't that busy.

LOL And it is clear he loves his British memoirs, which of course, must be seen as gospel, not like those nasty French ones, eh.

If you do not like it, I suggest you do what I do and put up your accounts, in your case, of the French.

And interesting he likes to quote from Siborne. Perhaps he did not spot that it was an extract from Siborne that I posted (13th) in which he described the French cavalry regiment 'which literally walked from the field in the most orderly manner.' He even posted the quote himself supporting it, which was nice to see? LOL

That extract was an opinion of the author. And if you have a delve into one of the links that I have posted, you will see that I quoted Siborne's account in a reply to Massena (Brechtel) which is from page 378 History of the War in France…etc. And Siborne used Barton's account in his telling of the incident whilst conveniently failing to go on that the 1st Hussars K.G.L past through the 12th at that time and moves that incident on to page 382, mentioning the 1st Hussars K.G.L but mentioning the 12th L.D as ‘British Dragoons'

I don't mind posting Barton's account, perhaps you would like to discuss it in more detail.

Your friend Brechtel said he had more than one allied account, so I await with bated breath for the other.

So, according to some,…

Me and many others included!

…the French were in a mess

Well of course they were in a mess. you don't see your army fleeing in all directions, lose almost all your artillery, caissons, your commanders baggage and half your army dead wounded or captured and not be neck deep in the midden.

with troops being rounded up like sheep, yet not a colour or eagle was captured? Tough sheep these, me thinks? LOL

Have you any idea of how many eagles were carried by the Guard a pied Regiments during the battle?
Did the rest of Nappy's infantry put up a stiff resistance? As none of those lost eagles either during the retreat and they had a lot more eagles and thus more chance of losing them than the Guard a pied, and they were more ‘knocked up' and did a lot more of the fighting.

And the PH extract only confirms what VW posted, that there were cries to save the eagles, not that they were actually captured. It seems more likely that, with any army routed or in retreat, there would be some who would surrender on the spot, some who would run as soon as they can, and others who would remain disciplined and steady and put up some form of resistance, be it as a group or individually.

But any resistance was brief. And if you need to know what a proper rearguard resistance should be like, then I suggest you read about Newcastle's Whitecoats at Marston Moor or Prince Rupert's regiment of foot, the Bluecoats at Naseby. They are what you would call last stands and if any of Napoleons Guard had done such feats, then high casualty figures would have occurred to the battalions involved and all but wiped out with deaths and wounded being very high. None were, most fled to either regroup later, desert, made prisoner of war or killed and wounded. The numbers show this to be the case.

Paul :)

Imperial Guard, the whole foot regiments did carry only two eagles, the rest had to be left at home or in case of Young Guard were never issued at all.

By such Propaganda tricks – Stripping regiments of their eagle in wartime – Boney ensured hat after 1808 hardly any eagle was captured (because hardly any was carried in the field any longer), compare to British practise where even Light battalions did carry two colours per battalion – and realize that one had ten times more chances to capture a British colour instead of the "cuckoo"

Eagles for the infantry of the Imperial Guard were limited to two, one each for the 'corps' of grenadiers and the 'corps' of chasseurs. This was done in 1812. The regiments without eagles were to carry fanions: red for the voltigeurs, white for the tirailleurs, blue for the two fusilier regiments and yellow for the flankers.

So in 1815 the Guard infantry had only two infantry eagles.

In 1806 Napoleon ordered the hussars and chasseurs a cheval 'deposit' their eagles at army headquarters.

In 1807 Napoleon ordered the light infantry regiments to leave their eagles at their regimental depots, though some of the light infantry regiments continued to carry their eagles anyways.

In 1806 the dragoons were allowed to keep one eagle per regiment. Cuirassiers and carabiniers were allowed to keep three per regiment.

And it should be noted that at Waterloo with the situation turning desperate, Wellington ordered British colors sent to the rear.

Why should that be 'noted' in particular? I see no relevance.

The British Light Cavalry colours were usually laid up, when the Cavalry went to war, in the Church local to the regiments base. Although, some Colonels in the Peninsula, had them in their large, 'indian' tents, (not teepees, but large, multi-part tents, with dining areas, aides quarters, and meeting/briefing area) This has little relevance to the discussion also. Please, continue.

John

vW. Don't pity my 1/72. I like the look of those Perry figures, and have a lot of 28mm Naps. I just prefer the "look" of a good 1/72 figure now (you and I have discussed Francesco's FranzNap range).

And i could do egypt with strelets. Th light dragoons are rather nice…

@Marc

"a pity that you are committed on 1 / 72 scale,"

so I don't pity your 1 / 72 collection – where we both agree that there are superb sculpts and figures around, the Perrys do an extensive series of the Egyptian Campaign for France and Enemies and I am sure that the range will be Extended, the latest British artillery is breath taking.

Strelets – I admit that during my Long time collecting 1/72 miniatures, I did not like them that much.

dibble

Nice to see you agreeing with me that, while the French army was said to be in a mess and being rounded up like sheep, the army only lost two eagles during the battle and retreat? Must have been pure luck I guess, eh? And how many colours did the Allies lose?

And really, if you wanted to compare something in this thread, I would have hoped you would have chosen some Napoleonic rearguard actions, rather than two so called ECW rearguard actions belonging to two battles in which the Royalists were well and truly whipped.

But concerning the Whitecoats, very brave yes, I'll give you that, although they were said to have arrived on the battlefield late and drunk, which might explain a lot. And it appears their last stand was more like a Battle of the Big Horn scenario when they were surrounded than a rearguard action. I also believe the Bluecoats at Naseby found themselves being attacked in front and in the rear during the battle, when the Royalist cavalry failed to return from attacking the Parliamentary baggage park. The cavalry obviously had different priorities to the infantry. LOL

vW – my apologies, I slightly misunderstood your comment – curse the silent internet and its missing intonations etc.

But yes, the Perry range is nice *far better than Strelets…). But sometimes I wish their very remarkable talent and prodigious output had been directed to anatomically correct figures. Tom Meier has been producing masterpieces for as long as they have, and they worked alongside his scultpts in the early days of Games Workshop, so they could (if they chose) produce even better figures.

Sometimes (and I know I will be shot down for this) their figures can be a little bit clunky – almost a super detailed version of Minifigs, with telegraph pole weapons and distorted features. I know it is a style, and they have toned the excesses down, but I still would prefer slimmer figures from them.

But best wishes from this 1/72 fan

Marc