"Why was the Guard pants at Waterloo?" Topic

Have you guys ever noticed that 'politically correct' English terms have more syllables than the older ones? ;-)

Sincerely,
K

hehe aye

If you want to read how we managed about Napoleonic Forum in the near past… this is a very good example!. (smile).

Amicalement
Armand

What a brilliant example. I have only read a fraction of the postings. I will forgive the title…….the content is brilliant. Much is contradictory but very well researched.

I don't know how you do it, but finding this was great (grin)

Tres Bon!

British accounts of the defeat of the Guard

link

Macready's Account. Which was from Carole Divall's Redcoats against Napoleon but which can now be read in full, in Gareth Glover's Waterloo Archive volume VI

link

Both are from this thread

link

In this thread the Guard a pied retreat is brought up.

link

And though this link is about the Grenadiers a Cheval trumpeters headdress, It does go on to question the veracity of the Guard a pied retreat at the end of the day.

link

Paul :)

Glad you enjoyed it … again my friends!… (smile)

It was one of my favourites….

Amicalement
Armand

It may be too late, but surely the reason the Imperial Guards were 'pants' at Waterloo was because they were old sans culottes…

Funny though, "drum majors" has passed this for number of postings.

How long does it take to train a drummer?

Is Elting's book worth reading (Oh yes)

Does he get minor details wrong (Oh yes, inevitably, once or twice, but you'd be hard put……..)

This is MUCH more useful

Also "pants" is "so" 2010 (actually 2005)….no one has used that word in years, other than to describe what they wear next to their skin below the waist (UK) or without (US)

"Pants" went out with "cool". Use of either makes you sound like someone who rhymes with someone who rides in an M4EA8 Sherman

If the question was about why the attack of the Middle Guard was unsuccessful, which I suspect it must be as the Young Guard and two battalions of the Old Guard performed pretty well against the Prussians, I think that there are a range of reasons:

1. The Middle Guard was not strong enough in terms of the number of men.
2. The attack was poorly coordinated; it seems to have developed into a series of attacks by individual battalions rather than a planned and organised attack.
3. The attack was not properly supported by cavalry, mainly because the appallingly bad French commanders had thrown the cavalry away in the afternoon.
4. The Middle Guard were not better troops than those facing them.
5. Many of the British troops that they encountered were confident, did not feel that they were already half beaten, and were not overawed by being attacked by the Guard.
6. The Middle Guard had already suffered severely from artillery fire before they even reached the Allied infantry.
7. The attack was made too late.

Overall, a force that was inadequate in terms of both numbers and quality and lacking coordination was tasked to attack a strong position held by what were probably the best defensive troops in Europe, while under artillery fire, without sufficient support, and at the wrong time.

If anything, the remarkable aspect of the whole thing is that they did as well as they did. No troops should have been put in the position that they were and the blame for that has to lie with the French commanders; Ney showed why he should never have been promoted above divisional command and Napoleon would probably have done better to go to La Belle Alliance for a few glasses of wine and leave Soult to get on with it.

Good points my friend…

Amicalement
Armand

Thank you Raul.

I am still intrigued to know if you were possibly on Two Sisters on 11-12 June 1982.

Eric

Pants: (Britain, slang) Rubbish; something worthless. You're talking pants! The film was a load (or pile) of pants.

Pants: (plural only, chiefly Canada, US, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa) An outer garment worn by men and women that covers the body from the waist downwards, covering each leg separately, usually as far as the ankles; trousers. [from 19th c.]

That clears up a few things.

Yes my friend… I was there…

Sorry for you jail…

Amicalement
Armand

If the question was about why the attack of the Middle Guard was unsuccessful, which I suspect it must be as the Young Guard and two battalions of the Old Guard performed pretty well against the Prussians…

The Middle Guard was not reactivated during the 100 Days. And that means that the Fusiliers-Chasseurs and the Fusiliers-Grenadiers were not reactivated. They had been the Middle Guard infantry.

The eight regiments of Grenadiers and Chasseurs were all rated as Old Guard by the Imperial Decrees that activated them.

The two Old Guard battalions that retook Plancenoit with the bayonet from 14 Prussian battalions did more than 'pretty well.'

The Young Guard was ejected from Plancenoit by the Prussians but joined with the two Old Guard battalions when they attacked to retake the village.

The Young Guard died in the village but Pelet's two Old Guard battalions broke out and went south, saving their eagle.

The 1st Regiment of Grenadiers a Pied and the Grenadiers a Cheval both left the battlefield in excellent order at the end of the battle. See Mauduit. British eyewitnesses saw the Grenadiers a Cheval leaving the battlefield at the walk and wisely chose to leave them alone.

British eyewitnesses saw the Grenadiers a Cheval leaving the battlefield at the walk and wisely chose to leave them alone.

They might not have tried to stop them but legend has it the British did send them on their way with a rousing chorus of "We can see you sneaking out."

Brechtel

British eyewitnesses saw the Grenadiers a Cheval leaving the battlefield at the walk and wisely chose to leave them alone.

Eyewitnesses? And who were 'they'? I have had words with you about that little carrot, so perhaps you can post the evidence that the Grenadiers a Cheval 'Walked' from the battlefield.

And please quote in full.

Paul :)

I've already posted it on at least two forums. So, perhaps, you can look it up yourself?

If you have trouble let me know.

…British eyewitnesses saw the Grenadiers a Cheval leaving the battlefield at the walk and wisely chose to leave them alone…Eyewitnesses? And who were 'they'? I have had words with you about that little carrot, so perhaps you can post the evidence that the Grenadiers a Cheval 'Walked' from the battlefield.

And please quote in full.

It is from the Waterloo Letters, isn't it?

From Major Barton, 12th Light Dragoons: link

OTOH, you can have Col Childers saying that they weren't (or more precisely, recalls no such event): link

The Imperial Guard Heavy Cavalry as a whole seem to have suffered quite heavily during the battles: PDF link

You made the statement

"British eyewitnesses saw the Grenadiers a Cheval leaving the battlefield at the walk and wisely chose to leave them alone."

I have already linked the posts in question on this thread.

You should put up those 'eyewitnesses'. Unless that is, you are running away and deserting your responsibilities just like the rest of the Guard did

If you have trouble let me know.

Seems to me that you are the one who is feeling the trouble.

So come on Kevin! post your evidence, I'll post mine, then we will see what others make of it.

Paul :)

Any time there is a discussion with you involved regarding the French and British you turn excessively negative, mocking, and such nonsense.

That is why I usually refrain from discussing anything with you.

By the way, have you not, in the past, confessed as to not knowing much or anything about the French?

If that is so, and please correct me if I'm wrong, then there is no point discussing anything regarding the Grande Armee with you, now is there.

Brechtel

Any time there is a discussion with you involved regarding the French and British you turn excessively negative, mocking, and such nonsense.

I hate to say it, but you must admit Kevin that you are a past master at such diatribes.

By the way, have you not, in the past, confessed as to not knowing much or anything about the French?

Yup! I have a crap library, and I know nothing of the French.

There you go! Now, please post the 'eyewitnesses' accounts. Though while I have your attention, a link to my confession would be nice.

And if I know nothing, it shouldn't be to hard to put me right on this subject of the Grenadiers a Cheval at Waterloo being so powerful that the Allies were scared to face them.

If that is so, and please correct me if I'm wrong, then there is no point discussing anything regarding the Grande Armee with you, now is there.

I've corrected you on many occasions but you repeat the same old myths stated by the same old and very old historians.

Paul :)

Whirlwind

Poor old Barton. First he says he saw them Walk from the field. Then he says they were retiring to act as part of the rearguard. Anyway, Vivian's Brigade passed through Barton's 12th Light Dragoons just after that encounter. As we know, Vivian's brigade didn't shirk from attacking all that was in front of them.

Paul :)

Brechtel

The 1st Regiment of Grenadiers a Pied and the Grenadiers a Cheval both left the battlefield in excellent order at the end of the battle. See Mauduit. British eyewitnesses saw the Grenadiers a Cheval leaving the battlefield at the walk and wisely chose to leave them alone.

And I had this to say about the 1st Grenadiers a Pied and the Guard infantry in general.

"Well yes, they fell apart from the 19th. On the 18th of June they had about 1,280. By the 26th, they had only 644. During the battle itself they lost a paltry bakers dozen men (plus 1 man wounded). The 1st company lost 2men captured, 1 deserted , 1 dead and 1 wounded at Plancenoit, the remainder of the battalion lost a total of 9 men overall at the battle.

The Guard infantry overall lost heavily and lost heavily to desertion or prisoners but not so heavily in dead and wounded. 5 battalion squares were broken up and captured, and the large part of the 1st Battalion 3rd Grenadiers were captured after a mauling. The 3rd and 4th Chasseurs were shot up and fled. Not one of those regiments attacking the Anglo-allied ridge got to within bayonet distance. The Allied infantry broke them, the cavalry routed them.

So overall, the guard lose badly at one battle then proceed to fall apart after it. Just as useful as an ornate chocolate fire guard, looks impressive but as soon as the heat gets to it, it melts away."

Paul

Dibble,

As you know, I'm no fan of the condescending Brech, with the big superiority complex, and the facille little puppy that snaps at you from behind his ankles, BUT, five battalion squares of the guard broken and captured? I hate to say this, but I've never heard of this, where is this from? Sorry mate, source? (I hate what I've become)!

John

What?????????

Amicalement
Armand

again another brech circle

1er grenadiers á pied were swept away, like all Guard regiments with the exception of 1er bat. carabiniers a pied

Gourgaud, général : Observations sur l'ouvrage de Général Gourgaud, intitulé : Campagne de 1815, Bruxelles 1819

« (…) tout fut perdue par un moment de terreur panique. Les escadrons même de service, rangés á côté de l'Empereur, furent culbutés et désorganisés par ces flots tumultueux, et il n'y eut plus d'autres chose á faire que de suivre le torrent. »p. 88
« (…)la vieille garde, qui était en réserve en fut assaillie, et fut elle . même entraînée. Dans un instant, l'armée ne fut qu'une masse confuse, toutes les armes étaient mêlées, et il était impossible de reformer un corps. » p. 88

As to the ficition Muadit writes

"Mauduit was in 1815 sergent in the 2nd battalion of the 1st grenadiers and by such must have had a limited experience what went on in the battle. In 1835 he founded the periodical "La Sentinelle de l'Armée" and did consult a lot of published works – including Prussian ones, like that of Wagner to make his write up. It includes without any doubt his own experience but also a lot he learned from personal correspondence, using other sources and hearsay. In my view a very bad book which is seemingly intended to glorify Napoléon and his Guard and blaming the marshals and generals for the loss of the 1815 campaign, so it has to be used very critically.
"Notre bataillon, ainsi que le 1er de notre régiment, les seuls qui fussent en état de soutenir un choc, ne tardèrent pas à se ressentir de l'affreuse confusion de champ de bataille. Chacun de nos faces était masquée par des centaines de militaires de tous grades et de toutes armes. »2nd tome, p. 459 / 460
Then his battalion itself comes under cavalry attacks.
« Les tambours de nos deux bataillons reçurent l'ordre de battre « la grenadiere », afin d'offrir à l'armée un point de ralliement. A ce signal ami et protecteur, surgirent de tous côtés, nos malheureux camarades, soit de Plancenois, soit de la Belle – Alliance, presque tous tombaient haletants de fatigue, devant notre premier rang, ils étaient suivis de si près par les innombrables escadrons anglais et prussien, qu'un grand nombre ne purent même arriver jusqu'à nous et furent massacres à quelques toises de notre carré !! p. 560
« Arrêtés court par un feu de plus nourris, ces escadrons bientôt tourbillonnent et, en moins de dix minutes, tout fut balayé devant nous. Ainsi dégagées, nous pûmes, au milieu de désordre général, et bien que mitraillés à portée de pistolet sur trois de nos faces, commencer notre retraite avec autant de calme (…) » p. 462
« Notre retraite s'opéra à travers champs, en passant sous le feu de plusieurs bataillons prussiens, embusqués derrière des haies qu'il nous fallut franchir, là, ils tueront ou blessèrent un grande nombre d'entre nous, mais sans qu'il fut possible de leur riposter, car on ne les voyait pas, et l'on tombait sans savoir d'où les coups étaient partis. Ils ne purent néanmoins arrêter notre mouvement, (….) Ce ne fut que plus tard que notre carré se trouva désorganisé par l'encombrement général de notre base de d'opération. »P. 462/ 463
Il en fut ainsi de notre 1er bataillon, marchant parallèlement à nous, sur l'autre côté de la chaussée. Nous sauvâmes aussi l'aigle des grenadiers. »p. 463
« Pendant que nous étions assailles par la cavalerie anglaise, le carré de notre 1er bataillon, placé à peu de distance de nous, et près de la ferme de Rossome, soutenait également le choc d'une cavalerie nombreuse. »p. 463
Quelques minutes après l'Empereur appela le général Petit, notre colonel, et lui dit « BATTEZ EN RETRAITE ».p.464
« A, Voici d'après la situation officielles de quatre régiments de grenadiers au 30 juin, leur pertes, en en tues ou mutilés restés sur les champs de bataille de Ligny et de Waterloo, non compris les blessés qui avaient pu arriver jusqu' à Paris.
1er Rég. 11 Officiers, 469 s-off. ou grenadiers » p. 492
For the 16th of June Mauduit offers following numbers :
1er grenad. À pied général Petit – 2 bataillons 32 officiers 1006 troupe, p. 478 – 1st volume
« Ce tableau est le plus exacte que nous puissions joindre à cette ouvrage, encore avons-nous en mille peines à arriver à ce résultat à peu près officiel, car il n'existe nulle part, ni même au ministère de la guerre, de situation générale de l'armée établi au 15 juin (…) P. 475 – 1st volume

Sabretache 1905

As to how badly the 1er greadiers were beaten up

"Note du commandant Duuring, chef de bataillon au 1er chasseur de la garde.
« (…) je fis rassembler le bataillon en colonne par division à distance de peloton(…) »p. 118
« Je mis le bataillon en route, il marcha dans le bled qui était d'une hauteur au-dessus de la tête des hommes »p.118
« La nuit s'avança (…) je fuis appuyer de ce côté, rencontrai quelques détachements de la Garde, en outre l'aigle des grenadiers, que je fis rester avec moi »p. 118
« Je continuai la route de Charleroy que j'ai traversée avec environs 300 hommes dont quelques grenadiers ainsi que l'agile »p 119
"

So the Chasseurs à pied have to take in the eagle to provide more protection of the dispersed 1er gap

as usual brech brings up propganda which is collapsing into dust when cross checking references – I see no learning curve

John

As you know, I'm no fan of the condescending Brech, with the big superiority complex, and the facille little puppy that snaps at you from behind his ankles, BUT, five battalion squares of the guard broken and captured? I hate to say this, but I've never heard of this, where is this from? Sorry mate, source? (I hate what I've become)!

Sorry John and Kevin, It is rather misleading. what I must have meant and should have posted, I posted it some months ago, is five squares dispersed and many captured. My apologies to all.

I stand by the other parts of the post. Especially the chocolate fireguard part.

And if anyone screams 'what about the 4th Grenadiers' They retired well from the battlefield where it lost about 350, fought a good rearguard action at Genappe against the pursuing Prussian hoards, but later lost about 740 to desertion and prisoners.

Paul :)

certainly broken and dispersed by all means yes, the French accounts are full of it, describing well the panic in the retreat, one formation after the other was engulfed in it, 1er Chasseurs 1er battalion seemingly escaped that – due to the very high growing rye which enabled them to hide from the pursuing Allies – Gourgaud, certainly very very pro Napoléon admits this – why for example had the Chasseurs to take in the Eagle of the 1er grenadiers – in case they did as brech trumpets – conduct such a masterfull retreat??

The whole attack against Wellington collapsed as well, broken by some of the best units, the Hannoverian Landwehr, and in case about doubts, one just has to read Glover's The Coresondance of Henry Clinton, an eye opener in many ways

John

For an excellent reappraisal of the destruction and flight of the Guard a pied, look no further than Paul Dawson's 'Charge the Guns' Chapter 20, Pages 244 to 250. It will make nasty reading for those who think the Guard died with the honour that some historians credit them with.

What I will do is quote some of Dawson's findings, hopefully tonight or tomorrow night.

Paul :)

These may be of interest-

'As a result only five battalions, from the 3e and 4e Regiments of Grenadiers and Chasseurs a pied, actually took part in the onslaught. (A sixth, the 2nd Battalion of the 3e Grenadiers a pied, had to be left in the valley to protect their western flank.) These five battalions, about 2,500 or 3,000 men, reached Wellington's line in succession from east to west, and despite some initial successes were repulsed one after another. This was hardly surprising, since Wellington was able to bring 10,000 men against them.

During this time, the remaining Old Guard battalions reached napoleon, who was watching the assault from the rear. He deployed them in the valley, but as the defeated army began to dissolve in flight, he saw them come under attack from two directions: from the Prussians, who had broken through in the north-east, and from Wellington, who launched a general advance from the north. The Guard cavalry was no longer intact and in reserve to counter either threat and Napoleon could commit only his four escadrons de service against the Prussians. At the same time, the Guard had to contend with French fugitives and the growing darkness that made it difficult for the officers to control their men.'
(page 129: Napoleon's Immortals by Andrew Uffindell)

'So we marched, until we met again on our left what remained of the Old Guard infantry, which, with us, formed the extreme rearguard. They were formed in square on the road and on the southern side of a slope whose crest served as protection against English cannonballs. They were facing to the rear; we halted level with them and turned about too. We numbered at that time 100 to 150 officers and troopers of the Lancers and mounted Chasseurs, exhausted and wretched. We were about 500 paces to the left of the above-mentioned infantry, separated by a low meadow with some undergrowth. The sun had almost disappeared over the horizon, and it was nearly dark.' (part of extract by Captain de Brack-page 227: Waterloo The French Perspective by Andrew Field)

'Petit writes in the third person-
The Emperor galloped back and placed himself inside the square of the 1st Battalion of the 1st Regiment of Grenadiers. The whole army was in the most appalling disorder. Infantry, cavalry, artillery-everybody was fleeing in all directions. Soon no unit retained any order except the two squares formed by this regiment's two battalions posted to the right and left of the road. On orders from the Emperor, their commander, General Petit, had the grenadiere sounded to rally those guardsmen who had been caught up in the torrent of fugitives, The enemy was close at our heels and, fearing he might penetrate the squares, we were obliged to fire at the men who were being pursued and who threw themselves wildly at the squares. This was one evil we had to incur in order to avoid a greater one. It was now almost dark. The Emperor himself gave the order for us to leave our positions, which were no longer tenable, being entirely outflanked to the left and right. The two squares withdrew in good order, the 1st Battalion across country, the second along the road. A halt had to be made every few minutes so as to maintain the lines of the squares and to give time for the tirailleurs and the fugitives to catch up. Half a league outside Genappe the two squares found themselves reunited on the main road and they marched along it in column by sections. In this way we picked up all that remained of the other regiments of the Guard. The enemy was following us, but without causing us much worry. Not until panic seized the soldiers of the artillery train, who cut the traces of their horses and overturned the guns and ammunition wagons, using these to barricade and clutter up the road, did the enemy open heavy fire on the left of the column. Little damage was done considering the volume of fire, but it greatly increased the chaos which was already, so to speak, at its height. In these circumstances it was no longer possible to get what remained of the Guard through the town but we did succeed in making our way to the left of the road and town.' (Petit extract in The Hundred Days by Anthony Brett-James, pages 171-172)

And it seems that the Guard infantry units may have not been the only Guard units to remain relatively calm and in order-

'A remarkable exception to the general disorganization of the French Army was manifested about this time in front of Vandeleur's brigade, which was the furthest in advance of any of the Allied troops. In the midst of the crowd of fugitives which impeded the progress of the brigade, there appeared a regiment of cavalry, moving at a walk, in close column, and in perfect order, as if disdaining to allow itself to be contaminated by the confusion that prevailed around it. It was the grenadiers a cheval. The 12th British light dragoons were the nearest to it, having got in advance of the rest of the brigade, and were opposite the right flank of the column, whence a few pistol or carbine shots were fired at them. The 12th made a partial attack, but they were so much inferior in numbers, (being weak at this period,) and were so greatly obstruct3d in their movements by the crowd, that they were unable to produce any impression upon so compact and steady a body of cavalry; which literally walked from the field in the most orderly manner, moving majestically along the stream, the surface of which was covered with the innumerable wrecks into which the rest of the French army had been scattered. As Napoleon and his staff were at this time retiring along the high road, on the right flank of this cavalry of the guard, it is reasonable to infer that the latter was therefore induced to maintain the admirable order in which it was thus seen, to secure the Emperor's retreat.' (pages 377-378: History of the Waterloo Campaign by Captain W. Siborne)

Possibly the last word in this thread for me-

'It is worthy of note that no Eagles fell into allied hands during the rout.' (page 229: Waterloo The French Perspective by Andrew Field)

In the words of Paul Dawson. Charge the Guns! ISBN:978-1-907212-11-6

link

"The Imperial Guard contrary to the myth of the battle, and some eye-witness accounts written decades after the battle, did not make a glorious last stand on the field of battle. The 3rd Regiment of Chasseurs, shattered by the counter attack of the allied light cavalry and musketry of David Chasse's troops, broke and fled and were rounded up like sheep by the cavalry, the entire regiment being virtually captured on the field of battle 437.

…The regiments two battalions seem to have been shattered by the 1st Foot Guards and the men rounded up by cavalry. Neither the 3rd or 4th Chasseurs had been under fire as a military formation before the attack at Waterloo, which may explain why when fired upon by the allies the regiments never made contact with the allied lines before breaking and fleeing, the men being herded up by the cavalry. Allied reports of the 1st Foot Guards all make the comment that the Imperial Guard was there one minute and then it disappeared – the striking sudden appearance and routing of the regiment is born out by archive paperwork from the regiments.

437 Compiled from SHD/GR 20 YC 44, 45, 46 Chasseurs a' pied de la garde, divers corps, 1814-1815
***********************

The 2nd Battalion of the 1st Chasseurs….Was nearly entirely captured. Only nine men from the 1st company escaped being made prisoner of war. The battalion lost 446 other ranks out of 635 men, or 70 per cent of the total, of which 419 were prisoners of war, 65 per cent of the losses the battalion sustained being men captured by the allied cavalry during the rout of the French army when clearly the square collapsed.438

The 2nd Battalion 2nd Chasseurs, compared to the huge losses of the 2nd Battalion 1st Chasseurs or the 3rd Chasseurs, seem to have suffered far fewer casualties, having three men wounded, twenty deserted and 112 taken prisoner. The battalion seems to have held together against the attack of Adam's brigade and the allied light cavalry, unlike the 2nd Battalion 1st Chasseurs which was stand next to the 2nd Battalion 2nd Chasseurs.439

The 1st Battalion 3rd Grenadiers, shattered by the allied musketry and artillery according to battalion commander Guilleman, broke and fled to seek safety in the square of the 2nd Battalion 1st Chasseurs, and it may well be the breaking of this square that resulted in large numbers of men from the 3rd Grenadiers being captured at the same time.

The 2nd Battalion of the 3rd Grenadiers, contrary to Hippolyte de Mauduit's myth myth making that the battalion was virtually annihilated, suffered the fewest men captured as prisoners of war and appears to have made its way relatively unscathed to Genappe. Here the 4th company of the 2nd Battalion suffered 27 men wounded and 15 taken prisoner. The wounded men were subsequently captured.

At Waterloo and Genappe, the 2nd Battalion 3rd Grenadiers lost combined 154 men out of 520 in the battalion or losses of 29 per cent. The 1st Battalion lost 207 men out of 518 or 39 per cent losses. The regiment lost overall 34 per cent of its manpower at Waterloo, but of greater note it lost a further 62 per cent after the 20th June, more men were lost after Waterloo than during the battle, due to desertion, men being made prisoners of war or being killed in various rearguard actions.440

The 4th Grenadiers, said by Mark Adkin to have been annihilated at Waterloo, retreated in good order and took part in the stand of the Guard at Genappe against the Prussians. At Waterloo the regiment lost 346 men, but between 20th and 23rd June a further 736 were classed as deserted or prisoners of war. Clearly the regiment was not killed to a man at Waterloo, fought well at Genappe, and only disintegrated from the 20th June onward, spurred on we are told, by the men desiring to be with Napoleon as opposed to remaining with the army.441

The 1st Grenadiers appear to have done very little in the battle. The 1st Battalion sent to Plancenoit lost two men made prisoners of war, one deserted, one killed and one wounded, whereas the remainder of the regiment in total lost 9 men overall at Waterloo, but lost a staggering 600 men between 19th and 32rd June. These men quit the regiment and headed off to Paris en masse. Mark Adkin in Waterloo Companion, lists theses men as dead, wounded or prisoners on the 18th June which is simply not true.442

438 Compiled from SHD/GR 20 YC 44, 45, 46 Chasseurs a' pied de la garde, divers corps, 1814-1815
439 Compiled from SHD/GR 20 YC 44, 45, 46 Chasseurs a' pied de la garde, divers corps, 1814-1815
440 Compiled from SHD/GR 20 YC 13, 14 Corps royal de Grenadiers de France redevenu corps des grenadiers a pied de la garde imperiale lors des cent-jours, 1813-1814
441 Compiled from SHD/GR 20 YC 13, 14 Corps royal de Grenadiers de France redevenu corps des grenadiers a pied de la garde imperiale lors des cent-jours, 1813-1814
442 Compiled from SHD/GR 20 YC 13, 14 Corps royal de Grenadiers de France redevenu corps des grenadiers a pied de la garde imperiale lors des cent-jours, 1813-1814

*************************

Overall the Old Guard at Waterloo suffered heavy losses, not in men dead or wounded but in deserters or made prisoners. Five battalions were rounded up and captured once the squares had broken, and the larger proportion of the 1st Battalion 3rd Grenadiers was also captured. The imperial Guard certainly in the case of the 3rd and 4th Chasseurs and 1st Battalion 3rd Grenadiers, never made contact with the allied lines, came under intense musket fire, and the regiments then broke and fled when pressed by allied cavalry. Contrary to the myth of the battle, neither the 1st Foot Guards nor the 52nd Regiment of Foot defeated the Imperial Guard; it was the allied light cavalry that did so."

The last part I don't agree with. It was the infantry that shot them up and the light cavalry that destroyed them. So both defeated the Guard.

Paul :)

@dibble

Thanks – it confirms all serious research, books like by Mauduit or Lachouque are more or less propaganda stories containing half truths mixed with pure fiction.

Dibble's figures are fascinating. Very convincing high level evidence. For all the "frank discussion" and awful title, this has proved an invaluable topic. Plus I admit I did hear "pants" used on the BBC yesterday talking about a football team's performance. Groan

Ah ha, but do not forget there is one "reliable" major authority who differs.

Did not Cambronne cry out the words……what were they? Just before he was captured and yielded, himself.

Actually even he denied it……..

I think the extracts I offered, especially by Brack and Petit fit in, to a certain degree, in what dibble has offered, in terms of the Guard or rather, the remains of the Guard -
Brack: 'what remained of the Old Guard infantry'
Petit: 'Soon no unit retained any order except the two squares formed by this regiments two battalions'

It seems pretty clear that the majority of the French army, some Guard units included, were basically routed. But not all -

'Like Cambronne's battalion, some Guard units joined the rout, while others made a fighting retreat and eventually disbanded after taking heavy casualties. General de brigade Joseph, baron Christiani, commanding the 2e Grenadiers a pied admitted:
I retreated with my battalion in square. Some musketballs reached it and caused some confusion in the ranks. The voices of the officers were ignored and my soldiers disbanded once they arrived at the high ground occupied by the 1er Grenadiers. It was then impossible to rally them.'

One of Wellington's cavalry officers, captain Thomas Taylor of the 10th (or Prince of Wale's Own) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons (Hussars), recalled that when he charged with his squadron in the evening, the Imperial Guard infantry threw down their arms and shouted for mercy, many of them on their knees. But others resisted fiercely, as Lieutenant-Colonel the Hon. Henry Murray of the 18th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons (Hussars) found:

We came into ground entirely covered with French Infantry retreating, not in a body, but individually, yet with none of that hurry and confusion that might be imagined when thus suddenly ridden in upon, and especially some Ancienne Garde might be remarked for their coolness and bold countenance (one nearly bayonetted me as I passed).'
(both Christiani and Taylor extracts: Napoleon's Immortals by Andrew Uffindell, page 130)

The whole event must have been, to a certain degree, very much like the Prussian defeat at Jena 1806, but with Napoleon and the French army being on the losing side this time. However, unlike Jena, when one army fought and defeated another army, it took two armies to defeat Napoleon, and I am still stunned and amazed that no eagles were captured during the rout, which suggests that perhaps the rout wasn't as bad as we are led to believe?

Or the pursuit was less effective than ideal, or even suggested by the tales of von Gneisenau, his mounted drummer and the captured vehicles and trophies at Genappe.

Perfectly understandable. It must be debatable which of the two allied forces was the more exhausted by close of play on 18th.

I suspect a combination of darkness, just when needed, some professional disciplined units in retreat (as you say not all routed) and Prussians that had been marching and fighting for days on end.

Hardly any units retreated, the French accounts are revealing, there was a general panic which swept away all units which tried to stem the tide, but the Prussians had to regroup after Ligny – reorganise, then arrive at the battle field by fored marches and then fight hard and then surley they were exhausted as well, one has to remember that the battle ended virtually at night and soldiers disappeared in the above man hight wheat and rye.

Grouchy on the other hand preserved his forces quite well an dhis command did not disintegrate.

"La Vieille Garde à pied, à Plancenoit ….

maréchal de camp baron Jean-Jacques-Germain Pelet-Clozeau, colonel-major du 2e régiment de chasseurs à pied de la garde
« Plante là ton aigle, Martin » – c'était le nom du porte-aigle.
« À moi, mes amis! Sauvons l'aigle ou mourons autour d'elle! »

-- 1er bataillon du 2e régiment de chasseurs à pied (18/563) – major Jacques Colomban, chef de bataillon
-- 2e bataillon du 2e régiment de grenadiers à pied (18/527) – major Juste Golzio, chef de bataillon "

hm – 2e Chasseurs à Pied did not carry any eagle in 1815 in the field – only 1er Grandiers and 1er Chasseurs did carry them.

Here is evidence from Vivian's Brigade, which if read carefully shows that they ignored nothing in front of them, including some recollections that the Grenadiers a Cheval did the same as the rest of the Guard and bolted off sharply.

Seeing as Brechtel hasn't yet posted the sources pertaining the Grenadiers a Cheval, I thought that I would post the quote in full. I might add that there is only one allied quote about the Grenadiers a Cheval ‘walking from the field by an allied eyewitness. Brechtel clearly stated that there was more than one.

Major A Barton of the 12 Light Dragoons
Birmingham, November 3rd 1834

"At this time we saw to our left front, at no great distance, a strong Regiment of Cavalry, which we soon ascertained to be the Grenadiers a Cheval of the Imperial Guard; they were formed in a dense close column and appeared to take but little notice of our advance, when opposite their flank they fired a few carbine or pistol shots. We were some distance in front of our Brigade, and being too weak to make an impression [on them],
they literally walked from the field in a most majestic manner. I had subsequently an opportunity of learning from a French officer that this Regiment, as well as the Red Lancers of the Guard, was not in action during the day.
I can only account for their steadiness in such perilous situation, by ascribing to a wish to cover their infantry and cavalry that were retreating in such great disorder, and by perceiving that we had outmarched our guns.
The brigade continued its pursuit of the Enemy, still further, and when we were ordered to retire a short distance for the purpose of taking up our bivouac, rather an extra ordinary circumstance occurred. While retiring we met the 1st Hussars Kings German Legion advancing."

Here are a selection of first hand accounts that I have posted before elsewhere.

Lt. Colonel the Honourable Henry Murray
From the Historical memoirs of the XVIIIth Hussars.

"He [Vivian] took the flank officer's place, and led the column down the hill in the direction he wished to move, and thus advanced across the ridge in left front of Vandeleur's Light Cavalry Brigade. We were saluted by the latter with cheers of encouragement, and in similar manner by Maitland's Brigade, as we passed their flank. As soon as the smoke allowed General Vivian to see the disposition of the enemy's troops in his front, he formed line with with the [18th Hussars] regiment and the 10th [Hussars], with the 1st Hussars [K.G.L] in support….
On the Front stood two squares of the Grenadiers of the Old Guard, on its left front and much nearer to it were artillery and cavalry in advance of the proper right of these squares. This cavalry consisted of Cuirassiers, the wrecks of entire brigades; nearer to, and and partly in rear of the squares stood the Chasseurs and Grenadiers a Cheval of the Imperial Guard, greatly diminished in numbers. It was immediately evident to Vivian that the attack must in the first instance be directed against the advanced artillery and cavalry, and having put the regiment in motion, he placed himself in front of the centre besides Colonel Murray, for the purpose of putting us in the required direction. He on this said to the regiment '18th, you will follow me.' on which Sergeant Major Jeffs and several others said, 'by Jagus, General, anywhere, to hell, if you will lead us.' He then ordered the charge to sound, when the regiment dashed forward with greatest impetuosity, and at the same time with as much steadiness and regularity as if they had been at a field day exercise on Hounslow heath. Thus the direction of the charge by the regiment diverged as much to the left as that of the 10th had inclined to the right. Just as our charge commenced, some French artillery coming from their right, and slanting towards the regiment, made a bold push to cross our front at the gallop, but the attempt failed, and we were in an instant among them, cutting down the artillerymen and drivers and securing the guns. In the next moment, we fell upon the advanced cavalry, which we completely dispersed, and then bringing forward our left shoulder we attacked the cavalry and guns that stood more to our right front and near the right square which was now retiring. This cavalry appeared at first determined to make s stand, and an officer in its front dashed forward and fired at Colonel Murray, but in another moment the regiment was fiercely and dexterously plying their sabres amongst them, and we next charged their Imperial Guard, their Cuirassiers and Lancers, a regular medley of them all including infantry and guns, etc, such a scene! The Infantry threw themselves down except two squares, which stood firm, but did no good. The sneaking prisoners we had taken hollored 'Vive le Roi'…..
On charging, not only did the infantry throw themselves down, but the cavalry also from off their horses, all roaring 'pardon' many of them on their knees."

This account shows that the British Light Cavalry weren't 'afraid' to charge any type of enemy cavalry

Lieutenant-Colonel H. Lane of the 15th or Kings Hussars
Thorpe Arch near Weatherby, March 24th 1835.

"We at once returned to our former position,. Leaving one Squadron to keep the French Lancers in check.

We were no sooner on our ground than we advanced in line, and charged the Grenadiers a Cheval, who fled from us. our next attack (in line without reserve was [on] a square of French infantry, and our horses were within a few feet of the square. We did not succeed in breaking it, and of course suffered most severely."

Here are more accounts that show how stupid such accusations that the British/KGL were afraid to charge on the French at the end of the day, are!

The British cavalry totally routed the rearguard that consisted of Cuirassiers, Guard infantry, Cavalry and Artillery.

The pursuit lasted until orders were given to stop because of fading light (there are two incidences of clashes between British and Prussian-British cavalry during this part of the action alone.), the pursuit was left for the Prussians to continue, but by this time the 6th and 4th Light Brigades had already done the deed of totally smashing the Guard rearguard.

As the French post battle bulletin says, the battle was terminated by the attack of British Cavalry.

From Siborne's letters

Major General Sir Hussey Vivian
23rd June 1815 to Lady Vivian.

"I instantly ordered the regiments to form line on their front half-squadrons. Thjey did it to admiration. I led the 10th against a body of Cuirassiers and Lancers, much superior to them in force, on the French left, and having seen them fairly in, the the Enemy flying and falling under their swords, I rushed to the 18th and with them attacked the Cuirassiers and Chasseurs who formed the French right in support of the squares and guns. They were routed by intrepidity and gallantry of this regiment, and the Artillerymen cut down at their guns. From this moment not another cannon shot was fired. By this time the remains of the 10th had again formed. The 1st Hussars, still in reserve determined that the glory of ending the day should end [rest?] with the Regiment of my Royal master, I ordered the 10th tocharge the square of Infantry still steady and close to us. This they did most gallantly, and as gallantly was the attack received.

The 10th cut down the French in their ranks, some few then escaped under cover of a hedge, but from this time every man was in retreat, and eventually every man was taken during the persuit which lasted as long as we could see, so long, indeed, until from actually having cut down some Prussians, we were obliged to desist and gave them the persuit."

From the same.
Ordnance Office June 1839

I assert positively that when I advanced I left Vandeleur's Brigade standing on the position and they cheered me as I passed. The 10th charged, the 18th charged; the squadron or more of the 10th under Howard formed and charged again, and I had myself ordered the 10th and 18th to be reformed and to follow me. Having placed myself at the head of the two squadrons of the 1st Hussars, two other squadrons being in support, and was advancing in persuit of the broken Enemy, when I found on my right the 11th regiment, part of Vandeleur's brigade.

"So completely had I found myself alone with my Brigade prior to this, that I had actually some time before sent my A.D.C, Captain Kean, to Sir J. Vandeleur, to request he would come on and support me, and the gallant old soldier, for his brave an old fellow as ever lived, was very angry with me for so doing, saying ‘that I had no business to send orders (which I did not) to my senior officer‘…."

From the same.
Memorandum. Jan 18th 1830

(In response to French authors ascribing the total French rout to these two brigades)

" The detail of the proceedings of Sir H. Vivian's brigade will show that the Cavalry referred to is this brigade and his only. Sir J. Vandeleur's did not charge until some time after on the remains of the broken square of infantry that had collected, and of whom were made prisoner by it. That Sir J. Vandeleur's brigade did not attack any of the French cavalry, nor indeed until they had been driven from the field, is proven by their having taken no horses, whilst a very large number, nearly two hundred, were captured by Sir H. Vivian's Brigade.

The principal loss sustained by Sir J. Vandeleur's Brigade occurred whilst formed on the left of the road and in support of Sir William Ponsonby's Brigade. There, indeed, its loss had been great, and especially in the 12th Light Dragoons. The attack that was made at night on a body of French infantry that had collected, was made by the 11th and part of the 16th Light Dragoons.

From the same (no date)

" The advance of my Brigade and the attacks of the 10th and 18th no doubt threw into confusion all those French troops formed to cover the retreat on their left of the road around La Belle Alliance, whilst Adam's brigade had before routed the body of reserve covering the attack. I can very easily believe that the movement of the 52nd, &c., did not occupy more time than Gawler mentions.

You are quite right in saying there is not the slightest ground for jealousy, and I must say those are most unjust to the Prussians who refuse them their full share of credit for their most effective aid at the end of the day."

Lieutenant-Colonel T.W Taylor, 10th Hussars
To Sir Hussey Vivian. November, 1829

"There were some corps of French cavalry – one very conspicuous with red Uniforms or red facings with crests, also Dragoons in green and French Lancers white, formed to the right to protect the retreat

Sir H. Vivian led us towards these, bringing up the left shoulders rather and gave the order – Front form line. Each squadron formed but the head was going so fast that we scarce got into line, rather en echelon of Squadrons.

As we neared the Enemy, a Squadron or half-Squadron of a Light Dragoons regiment with red facings, either the 23rd or some Germans, pushed rather in advance of our right rather obliquely. The lancers couched their lances, made a gallant charge down the hill and turned them. Our right Squadron came upon the Lancers and sent them about; the Dragoons in green charged to support the Lancers, and the centre squadron came upon them, and the whole broke and fled, our men cutting in amongst them….

….Coming to the brow of the hill we found three or four companies about, rallied and formed with cavalry close behind them. They commenced a fire on us. Lord R. Manners halted a minute to form and charged. They turned and fled, and our men persued to the brow of a hill with a steep dip beyond it on the opposite side. On another a knoll another square of Infantry was formed. Our men being much scattered I began to collect and retired to join the rest of the regiment which I found halted and forming, telling off, &c., and commenced collecting and telling off my squadron.

Before I left the last hill my horse was so knocked up he could hardly go, and I was going to change him for a French one. But Sir H. Vivian coming up and expressing himself satisfied with the Regiment, and that we should have no more to do that night, I desisted changing my saddle."

Lieutenant-General The Hon. H. Murray.
18th Hussars. Memorandum. Jan 1835

"When coming from our left and slanting towards our right some French Artillery
made a push to cross us at a gallop. But it would not do, we were on them (I ordered the guns to be secured, the drivers not hurt); when again we were in with some cavalry (on our right formed up, Cuirassiers and other cavalry, and as I think, some guns), an officer in front of them rode forward and fired at me, but the 18th were among them with swords. The enemy gave way and were forced over the field."

From Siborne's Unpublished Letters

Lieutenant-Colonel Lord Robert Manners 10th Hussars.
Leicester, 13th November 1834.

"On the advance of the British army against the enemy's line at the close of the action, the 10th Hussars were wheeled round the flank of the infantry in their immediate front by Sir Hussey Vivian (commanding the brigade) and led by him to the charge. They first encountered a mixed body of the enemy's cavalry, consisting of Cuirassiers, Lancers and Hussars of the Guard, which they dispersed. They afterwards made other charges against various bodies of the enemy, and particularly one by a squadron under the Honourable the Major Howard, who was unfortunately killed against a square of Infantry"

From Gareth Glovers Waterloo Archive series of books

The Journal of Cornet Robert Henry Bullock, 11th Light Dragoons.

"Just as it was getting dark we came in sight of some of the Imperial Guards, who rapidly retreated behind a column of Infantry, which we charged and received a volley from close to their muskets. My horse carried me through the last charge, and then, in attempting to clear some horses that were killed, fell on me, and four squadrons went over me. We took some prisoners, but it was getting so dark General Vandeleur ordered us to retire, which we did a short distance (about 200 yards) to a wood, before which we halted for the night. The Hussars, whom we had passed and were coming in our support, thought that we were French, and were at the point of charging us when they found out their mistake."

Lieutenant John Luard, 16th Light Dragoons
Camp near Waterloo, 19th June

"At the close of the day the Enemy made a last furious attack upon our right wing & carried it but were again repulsed. We came into play & with the Hussars charged every thing, infantry, cavalry & artillery, [we] took about 30 pieces of cannon and about 3,000 prisoners, in short the day finished with the complete rout & defeat of Bonaparte's army"

Private [Trooper] John Marshall, 10th Hussars.
To Mr Garrard Balmer, Sible Hedingham, Essex
Pedtecte [Puteaux?] near Paris, 11th July 1815

"After advancing about 100 yards we struck into a charge, as fast as our horses could go, keeping up a loud and continuous cheering, and soon we were in amongst the Imperial Guards of France. The 18th Hussars also charged as we got amongst them, which so galled them that we slew and overthrew them like so many children, although they rode in armour and carried lances 10ft long. But so briskly did our lads lay the English steel about them, that they threw of their armour and pikes and those that could get away, flew in all directions"

Captain George Luard, 18th Hussars
In advance of the field of battle near Waterloo 20th June

"we immediately charged into the centre of the infantry, cannons, and cavalry, which were quite completely put to the rout and made dreadful havoc. This took place at dusk, and we pursued the enemy till dark"

Major-General Sir Hussey Vivian.
To Edward Wynne Pendarves, Esq.,
St Benin, 23rd June 1815.

"With the 10th I charged a body of Cuirassiers and Lancers, infinitely more superior to them, I completely routed them. I then went to the 18th and charged a second body who were supporting a square of the Imperial Guard, and the 18th not only defeated them, but took 14 pieces of cannon that had been firing grape at us during our movement.

I then with the 10th having reformed them, charged a square of infantry, Imperial Guards, the men of which we cut down in the ranks, and here the last shots were fired. From here it was derout."

There are other accounts from witnesses who either took part directly or observed this incident but I can't be arsed to post them. If anyone wishes to learn more, I suggest they either purchase or borrow these books or similar.

PS. The 'walking from the field' of Rigau and that Nappy lovers doyen historian Houssaye, are just face saving quotes

************************************

Ensign Edward Macready 7th July 1815 (Gwent Record Office, D361/F/P6.33)

"The enemy then sent a strong column of Grenadiers of the guard to drive us but when they came within 20 paces, we gave them a volley and a Huzzah; and prepared for a charge, but they saved us the trouble, away they went, our cavalry got among them and I pitied their ‘pauvres diables.'"

Macready
"It was near seven o‘clock, and our front had sustained three attacks from French troops, when the Imperial Guard was seen ascending our position in as correct order as a review. As they rose step by step before us, and crossed the ridge, their red epaulettes and cross belts, put on over their blue greatcoats, gave them a gigantic appearance, which was increased by their high hairy caps and long red feathers, which waved with the nod of their heads as they kept time to a drum in the centre of their column. ‘Now for a clawing' I muttered; and I confess, when I saw the imposing advance of these men, and thought of the character they had gained, I looked for nothing but a bayonet in my body, and half breathed a confident sort of wish that it might not touch my vitals.
The enemy halted, carried arms, about 40 paces from us and fired a volley. We returned it, and our Huzza! Brought down the bayonets. Our surprise was inexpressible when, pushing through the clearing smoke, we saw the backs of the Imperial Grenadiers – we halted and stared at each other as if mistrusting our eyesight"

**************************************

Here are some of the first hand accounts by those directly involved in the repulse of the Imperial Guard. This does not include accounts by external eyewitnesses.

William Siborne's published letters.

Captain H.W Powell. 1st foot Guards. letter No.109. Page 254

"They continued to advance till within fifty or sixty paces of our front when the brigade were ordered to stand up. Whether it was from the sudden and unexpected appearance of a corps so near, which must have seemed as starting out of the ground, or the tremendously heavy fire we threw into them, La Garde, who had never before failed in an attack suddenly stopped. Those from a distance and more on the flank could see the affair, tell us that the effect of our fire seemed to force the head of the column bodily back.
In less than a minute 300 were down. They now wavered, and several of the rear divisions began to draw out as if to deploy, whilst some of the men in their began to fire over the heads of those in front was so evident of proof that their confusion,that Lord Seaton (who joined the brigade, having had the whole of his Light Infantry battalion dispersed at Hougoumont) holloaed out, 'Now's the time my boys.' Immediately the brigade sprang forward. La Garde turned and gave us little opportunity of trying the steel. We charged down the hill till we had passed the end of the orchard of Hougoumont, when our right flank became exposed to a another heavy column. (As we afterwards understood of the Chasseurs of the Garde) who were advancing in support of the former column. This circumstance besides that our charge was isolated, obliged the Brigade to retire towards their original position"

Lieutenant and Captain H. Davis 1st Foot Guards. No.110. Page 257

" When the French Imperial Guard advanced to the attack,the same maneuver was repeated by the British Guards, and the French Guards whose attack was made in column, were broken and driven back with great slaughter, the field being literally covered bwith their dead."

Ensign J.P Dirom 1st Foot Guards. No.111. Page 257

"The Brigade had been formed in line four deep, and ordered to lie down. When the Imperial Guard came in sight, the men were desired to stand up….The French Columns showed no appearance on their advance, but seemed as regularly formed as if at a field day.

When they got within a short distance, we were ordered to make ready, present and fire. The effect was evidently most deadly. The French columns appeared staggered and, if I may use the expression, convulsed. Part seemed inclined to advance, part halted and fired, and others, more particulary towards the centre and rear of the column seemed to be turning round.

At this moment our line was ordered to charge….On our advance the whole French columns turned round and made off."

From William Siborne's unpublished letters.

Captain John Reeve No. 97 Page 160

"When the Imperial guard made their attack at about 7o'clock pm the 1st Brigade of Guards were lying down in a line of four deep resting upon their arms….On the enemy's column arriving within about 30 paces of our line they halted, but from the warm reception they met with, instead of deploying they commenced firing several files deep, evidently in confusion, we charged them – they went to the right about and fled in all directions."

Ensign Thomas Robert Swinburne No.105 Page 166-167

"….we were ordered to rise and fire a volley and charge. This the French received and I think that they were no more than 15 yards from us; they were so close that some of our men fired from the hip….The fire was very destructive, as there was a hedge of bodies lying and over which we passed in the charge after them down the slope. "

Ensign Daniel Tighe No106. page 168

"….till on the advance of the Imperial Guard we got word to advance in line and poured in a rapid fire into the advancing columns of the Imperial Guard which they stood but a short time and retreated in full disorder."

Gareth Glover's Waterloo Archive volume IV

Major General Peregrine Maitland No 54. page 132

"The moment they appeared and began to form about twenty yards to our front, we poured in the most deadly fire that perhaps ever was witnessed, as the field of battle abundantly testified to the following day. The Imperial Guard retreated; the whole of our line advanced and the rest of the part of the enemy was all flight"

Private Henry Swan No.64 page 141

"….the Duke of Wellington come to us and told us that we was agoing to be exposed against Guards, the first time that ever we was in our lives. When he said ‘Now Guards for your honour you must stand, form four deep and for every man to load and lay down, and when I orders you up, you will fire a volley into them, come to the port and charge.' When he ordered us up with ‘Up guards and at them' which we did with a Huzza and the French turned round and run a little way, that being the close of battle""

Great stuff Dibble, excellent reading, thank you.

John

My, dibble had been busy. But not sure why he has posted the extracts about the Guard being repulsed. I think you will find that it is in virtually every book on the battle? LOL And it is clear he loves his British memoirs, which of course, must be seen as gospel, not like those nasty French ones, eh.

And interesting he likes to quote from Siborne. Perhaps he did not spot that it was an extract from Siborne that I posted (13th) in which he described the French cavalry regiment 'which literally walked from the field in the most orderly manner.' He even posted the quote himself supporting it, which was nice to see? LOL

Anyway, although I was not convinced by Peter Hofschroer, that Waterloo was a German victory, I found some of what he included very interesting:

'The evacuation of Plancenoit led to the loss of the position that was to be used to cover the withdrawal of the French Army to Charleroi. The Guard fell back from Plancenoit in the direction of Maison du Roi and Caillou. Unlike other parts of the battlefield, there were no cries of 'Sauve qui peut!' here. Instead the cry of 'Sauvons our aigles!' ['Let's save out eagles!'] could be heard.'
(The Waterloo Campaign. From Waterloo to the Fall of Napoleon by Peter Hofschroer, page 145.)

'The Prussian pursuit after waterloo was limited by the lack of daylight and the general exhaustion of the troops. While many stragglers were cut down or captured, a substantial part of the artillery fell into Allied hands, not a single colour was taken, which indicates that the surviving rump of the French infantry regiments retained some sort of order and discipline. Gneisenau's leadership, however, ensured that this part of the Armee du Nord did not rally quickly enough and become a serious fighting force again. Along with his decision to retreat on Tilly and Wavre after the Battle of Ligny, this was Gneisenau's second major contribution to the Allied success.'
(The Waterloo Campaign. From Waterloo to the Fall of Napoleon by Peter Hofschroer, page 153)

So, according to some, the French were in a mess with troops being rounded up like sheep, yet not a colour or eagle was captured? Tough sheep these, me thinks? LOL

And the PH extract only confirms what VW posted, that there were cries to save the eagles, not that they were actually captured. It seems more likely that, with any army routed or in retreat, there would be some who would surrender on the spot, some who would run as soon as they can, and others who would remain disciplined and steady and put up some form of resistance, be it as a group or individually.

Hmmm, just noticed that dibble gave us the Major Barton extract in which he states that a French officer had told him the Grenadiers a Cheval regiment had not been in action during the day. As it happens I recently received my copy of Mercer's journal. And Mercer states the opposite quite clearly:
'At the first charge, the French column was composed of grenadiers a cheval and cuirassiers, the former in front'
(Journal of the Waterloo Campaign by General Alexander Cavalie Mercer, page 176, Pen and Sword edition, 2012)

There is even a drawing by Mercer on page 177, showing the BHA being attacked by this regiment.

Okay, so which British soldier is telling the truth and which one is telling porky pies? Although I suppose the 'French officer' could have been mistaken or even lying LOL

@Aberrant,

If anything, the remarkable aspect of the whole thing is that they did as well as they did.

I wonder if those shows the size of the "fresh troops" advantage?

Gazzola

Hmmm, just noticed that dibble gave us the Major Barton extract in which he states that a French officer had told him the Grenadiers a Cheval regiment had not been in action during the day. As it happens I recently received my copy of Mercer's journal. And Mercer states the opposite quite clearly:
'At the first charge, the French column was composed of grenadiers a cheval and cuirassiers, the former in front'
(Journal of the Waterloo Campaign by General Alexander Cavalie Mercer, page 176, Pen and Sword edition, 2012)

There is even a drawing by Mercer on page 177, showing the BHA being attacked by this regiment.

Okay, so which British soldier is telling the truth and which one is telling porky pies? Although I suppose the 'French officer' could have been mistaken or even lying LOL

Barton's quote should be dissected.

For instance. The story related to Barton by the French officer and being believed by him as to the Grenadiers a Cheval and Lancers not partaking in any of the earlier assaults on the allied lines was because Barton's 4th Light Cavalry brigade was posted to the far left of the allied army, as was Vivian's 6th Light Cavalry brigade, so would not have seen some of the heavy action occurring over on the right and did not move over to the right until just before the general advance so wouldn't have seen those cavalry units.

Mercer is telling the truth.

And I would like to know where the Grenadiers a Cheval disappeared to because Vivian's brigade 1st Hussars K.G.L passed through Vandeleur's brigade (of which 12 L.D belonged) just after Barton's encounter. Now, if the Grenadiers a Cheval were walking from the field, they would have been encountered by at least the said 1st Hussars K.G.L. A walking speed of a horse is about the same as a human, and for a Cavalry regiment like the Grenadiers a Cheval to be doing that and with their backs to the enemy would have meant disaster. Anyway, they had been encountered by allied light cavalry and retreated earlier in the battle, they were also encountered late on too by various regiments the Light cavalry and like the rest of the army, B"""""d off sharpish

Could you imagine thousands of allied cavalry charging all before them but skirting around those Grenadiers?

And one other thing! There was no better praise from a myriad of eyewitness reports than that for those brave Cuirassiers, who were (along with the artillery) the best French troops on the field that day. If any soldiers deserved respect from the allies that day it was them!

Paul :)

Crikey – you do quite like those Brits don't you Paul.

Still, it's a colourful period for us and our toys, so always good to hear/read various eyewitness accounts. How reliable they all may be is, sadly this far removed, a matter of conjecture.

But I do know that my beloved French lost, so I have to live with that. But they lost with the best uniforms…

Cheers all – some great reading above.

Marc (a French Naps fan)

I have always been quite amazed at the eternal search for 'new' material and the effect that has on some people. That and the now-tired use of the term and meaning of 'myth.'

I have not bought, nor have I read, the Dawson material referred to above. I have, however, read other volumes that he has authored and, in short, I was not impressed either by scholarship or accuracy of those volumes.

I won't buy the two listed above because of the publisher. I have ordered, however, the two on the Waterloo campaign that are coming out later and the reason for that is the Rocco prints.

Lastly, my opinions on the Guard actions in 1815 has not been changed by any opinions expressed here as there is too much good scholarship to back those opinions up. Petit and Mauduit are reliable, primary source material and both Lachouque and Scott Bowden have done excellent work on the 1815 Belgian campaign.

There is an excellent work on the Imperial Guard by Pierre Juhel which I highly recommend. It is entitled La Garde Imperiale pendant les Cent-Jours (1815).

Marc at work

Crikey – you do quite like those Brits don't you Paul.

Still, it's a colourful period for us and our toys, so always good to hear/read various eyewitness accounts. How reliable they all may be is, sadly this far removed, a matter of conjecture.

But I do know that my beloved French lost, so I have to live with that. But they lost with the best uniforms…

Cheers all – some great reading above.

Marc (a French Naps fan)

Well Marc, As you are a French Naps fan, so I am a Brit fan. And yes, the French trounced all before them when it comes to uniforms.

It's also not surprising that Brechtel stands by sources that confirms his ideas about his beloved Nappy and French army at Waterloo but things have changed with an enormous amount of new information being released by historians and researches that could only be dreamed about less than a decade ago.

Paul :)

dibble

Thanks for admitting that one of the British memoirs was lying, plus of course it also suggests Siborne was also lying since he included it in his account of the battle. That suggests British memoirs and accounts cannot be trusted 100%, just like any other memoir or account from any nation. LOL

Agreed Paul, so I have enjoyed the reading above. I have doubts sometimes with "first hand accounts", as people often have confused memories (as the Police know when getting eye witness accounts from witnesses), but that will never stop me appreciating peoples' efforts to post helpful information. I guess my concern is that, with historical accounts, people may well write what they recall/want to recall, which may not be the unvarnished truth. In this particular argument, I have no real axe to grind – I think the French lost completely, but am fascinated by how close to losing the Brits were – a close run thing indeed. Bit like Spain – it is all too easy to go all "pro Brit" but I think it was a long drawn out campaign that could have gone in a different direction quite easily – the joy of wargming "what ifs".

Wish I liked the Brits though – never understood why I don't. I am British, so it's not that. I think (maybe) it is a childhood thing, where the Airfix Brits were not quite as nice as the French in my eyes – some odd poses maybe put me off (and one got tree guns for eth French versus two for Brits, so it was probably an arms race thing). But I have a load of Brits, with a load more to paint, so I am not afraid of them.

Oh, and probably another thing was the "+1 for Brits firing", or "+lots for Rifles" – I think as a kid they were treated as supermen, so maybe that turned me off them.

So I tend to paint more Prussians and Russians as an adult – must do some Austrians.

Anyway – keep on going guys. But friendly hey…

a pity that you are committed on 1 / 72 scale, I shared your disinterst about the British army, but now I discovered those early British of the Egyptian campaign – Perrys of course and they are very tasty.