"Why was the Guard pants at Waterloo?" Topic

Why was the Guard pants at Waterloo?

There's no question that some elements of the Guard behaved well: the Young Guard briefly repulsed the Prussians from Plancenoit. On the retreat, while the whole army seemed to have broken up, much of the second line Guard retreated in order, until they too, eventualy dissolved.

But, the first wave of Guard that Bonaparte aimed at the British line, halted as soon as they felt British muskets.
The 1/3rd Grenadiers could even see a gap in Wellington's line, and still halted, then went back where they'd come from.

The Third Chasseurs stopped near the crest and instead of driving home, stopped, tried to change formation while under fire by Maitland's brigade and, it seems, men started to run away almost immediately.

Reports from both sides talk about the firefight from the first rank of Grenadier Guard being 'brief' after which they retreated or broke up and ran.

Yet the Guard that advanced against Wellington was fresh and easily outnumbered the thousand sighted British and Dutch muskets. In contrast Wellington's line was barely holding on: they'd suffered artillery all day and d'Erlon's attack and had only just recovered from Ney's charges. Halkett's brigade was a reminent; it had had to be re-formed already once, they had hardly any officers left, nearby artillery support had gone and ammunition was running out for some units. Maitland's brigade on the other side was in a similar state but even so the Fouth Guard Chasseurs before them lasted 10 minutes and ran too.

So how is it that a beaten-up and in parts wavering and somewhat battery-less British and Dutch-Belgian line, could see off the Imperial Guard?

How come the Guard were pants?

They rolled a 1

They were a shadow of the former guard?
They knew the battle was lost now the Prussians were here?

It was in the script! (Didn't any of you guys read Victor Hugo in school? It was ordained by Fate.)

Sheesh.

this will be good- popcorn anyone?

They perceived something on that day at that instant that we, with our grand maps and OOBs and precise headcounts can't appreciate?

The Old Guards were veteran soldiers, good soldiers, but in no way did that make them immune to fear and uncertainty. They still all, each one of them, wanted to live to see the sunset.

One of the problems was the lack of coordination. As the first line approached the British line both brigadiers were hit, and the battalions drifted off in different directions. So instead of a solid blow by 4 battalions advancing together, 4 small separate attacks went in and were beat in their turn. No doubt the lack of obvious support may have affected the Guards' attitude about attacking.

Edwulf 12 Nov 2009 12:38 p.m. PST
''They were a shadow of the former guard?
They knew the battle was lost now the Prussians were here?''

It's possible. Remember Bony had blocked the Prussian advanced guard for the time being, and Colonel Levavasseur had spread it about that Grouchy's troops had arrived, so I don't know that they had a reason to be depressed.

Because if they had won, this wouldn't have been as funny

link

What do you mean by "pants"? This is a noun in the plural form.

"What do you mean by "pants"?"

British slang for bad.

peevish.co.uk/slang/p.htm

Bad things happen to good people.

It seems to me that they simply met their match. They were used to their mere presence dominating the scene, with opponents already beaten in their own minds. British Guards to their front and arguably the finest light regiment in Europe in the 52nd taking them in the flank.

At that moment in time there wasn't a unit in the world that could have withstood it, although one cannot help thinking that the relative curdity of the French attack didn't help. It seems like everything the French tried that day was of the simply 'straight up and hit it with a big hammer' approach.

How many times had they truly been committed to battle that hadnt been won already? How many of the Old Guard of 1815 was truly "Old" Guard? They didnt live up to their reputation when it counted.

I am fascinated as to where you get the "1000 sighted British and Dutch muskets" (or what it actually means). If you total the units involved in repulsing the Guard, there were rather more than 1000 of them! The Guard battalions actually in the attack were significantly outnumbered by the Allies, who did have artillery support and quite a few of whom were relatively fresh.

Actually, the Guard who attacked at the end of Waterloo were the Middle Guard. The Old Guard was either at Plancenoit or forming the reserve (those squares of Guard covering the disintegration of the rest of the army were Old Guard).

Good question.
Most of them had got into the Imperial Guard through exploits against the Austrians, Russians and Prussians. All jolly good, but experiences which hardly prepared them to face the REAL Guards at close range.

Tongue in cheek comment of course, but hopefully it might help put the rather incontinent praise of the French army, so frequently seen, into perspective.

According to most accounts I've read, the 5 battalions of Guards who attacked Wellington's line were outnumbered at the point of each contact. As mentioned above the fact that it was a four different locations didn't help either.

One battalion faced a large British Guard battalion and the 52nd, another managed to draw a counter-attack from a whole brigade of Dutch-Belgians. Rather more than 1000 muskets.

"Why was the Guard pants at Waterloo?"

Honestly, I weep for the English language.

I agree with Mr. Mserafin about the Middle Guard and Mr. vtsaogames about the fired power that those 5 battalions had to face.

Amicalement
Armand

Tongue in cheek comments above aside, the dispersal (a lot more than they would have need to deploy into line per reglement) of the Guard battalions during their attack seems to indicate either they were not very competently handled, or that it was over confidently expected that each battalion would be able to sweep away quite a lot of the allied frontage.

On the broader subject of the Guard at Waterloo- Guard Lancer officer Antoine de Brack commented first hand on the excitement and confusion in the ranks of the Lancers and Chasseurs a Cheval which led to them charging without orders (French cavalry- Guard cavalry- surely not….). He also confirmed also they were unable to break any allied squares. In addition, De Brack criticised the poor accuracy of the Guard Artillery's shooting during the battle.

Has any wargamer considered a rethink of the Guard's 1815 troop gradings?

I weep along with Mexican Jack. In which part of England is pants an adjective?

colinjallen 12 Nov 2009 1:59 p.m. PST
''…..where you get the "1000 sighted British and Dutch muskets" (or what it actually means).

I'm facinated too, but perhaps the phrase was confusing: I meant the frontage of the British line, as Wellington set it up. Firepower would include men in the second rank at least. Halkett's men were in four-deep line because of Wellington's concern about cavalry and taking into account the manoeuvre gaps between battalions suggests that his, Maitland's and Adam's brigades (4000 worn men by then) actually waited for the Guard attack with a front of 1000 men. That's against nine fresh Old and Middle Guard battalions mustered to advance: about 4500 men.

''Allies, who did have artillery support and quite a few of whom were relatively fresh''.

Wellington's artillery in that sector had been significantly reduced and some areas were completely berift. Lloyd and Cleeve's batteries (that's 600 gunners) had been lined up in front of Halkett's brigade. Before the Guard attacked, the few remaining gunners were cleared away by the tirailleurs, Lloyd cut down and not one of these guns were fired. The French Guard bought two horse batteries with them: 12 guns in addition to fire from the grand battery.

'Pants' is a common kids word for bad. (not Good Bad, but poor bad). Remember it means 'underwear' over here.

Remember Wellington fought differently to many generals- his troops were laying on a rear slope, so relatively unaffected by artillery (the wet ground stopping the bounce also helped here), much of the action had been in the centre or well in front of these troops at Hougoumont, so they were unused, the French were confrontedby men rising seemingly from nowhere with the 'Volley and bayonet' tactic, the Guard were used to a pounded enemy breaking at their advance, they hadn't been used in the Peninsular War so had no experience of the British tactic, and the British believed their own publicity so were not demoralised.

And we got to keep their hats.

About 4000 guards were committed to the attack about 7:30 PM. They faced a solid line of British and Dutch infantry and artillery. They were hit from 2 sides at close range. Wellington himself said there was no smoke obscuring the target. Even the OG were not bullet proof.

I've read several accounts of how Ney asked for the more troops after La Haye Saint fell around 6:30. Napoleon made the reply, "More troops!? Where shall I get them? Would you like me to make some?" Had he committed the guard at that point, he likely would have cracked the English line (or so the theory goes). As it was, 7:30 was when Napoleon judged the time to attack.

"Why was the Guard pants at Waterloo?"

Honestly, I weep for the English language.

I could see how it's a bad thing – I recall some of the bigger kids in school would "pants" the younger ones. Oh, and an effeminate "bloke" would be called a "panty."

I always wondered if the deviation of the Guard battalions had something to do with the carnage left over from the cavalry charges in the same space earlier.

The ground would have been covered with dead men and horses – not exactly parade ground situation.

For my two-bits, the Guard was still excellent, maybe not 1809 standard but they'd been through 1813-14 and all that.

Remember the actions at Ligny and clearing Plancenoit with two battalions of the Old)…. but at the end of the day they were slaughtered by overwhelming firepower on at least two sides and multiple batteries brought up specifically to repel them and took it for about 10 minutes before succumbing.

No troops could have withstood it.

Because it had been roughly a month since you'd posted a fishing expedition to get people arguing?

Oh sorry, that was rhetorical, we all know the answer. Have a good nite.

Cheers,

The Bandit

There were a couple of factors at play

+1 for being British
+1 for British defending a hill

+1 for British Line firing at enemy attempting to charge?
Max

Cacadores, your numbers are way out; the British guards and the 52nd were still very strong at this stage of the battle. Also, the there were not 4500 Old Guard actually attacking the ridge as some battalions were dropped off en route. The guard units which broke a British brigade were counter-attacked by a fresh Netherlands brigade which contained around 3500 men.

At least one Netherlands battery was firing at the OG, as mentioned in the memoirs of senior OG officers and the official NL reports.

Just counting the front rank of the Allies to get your 1000 figure is deceptive; if you are doing that, and it is nonsense to do so, then you should only count the front rank of the involved OG units.

Frankly, I think that you are just ing; something which happens far too often on here.

@ Cacadores
The Guards' pants were blue at Waterloo.
I, too, have trouble with the strangeness of the language of the Queens. Feel free to PM me and I will help you phrase the phrases as they should go (should come?).

"Frankly, I think that you are just ing; something which happens far too often on here."

No offence but I think negative replys are far too common here. If people dont like a thread why do they always insist on posting? Why not just boycott?

I always wondered if the deviation of the Guard battalions had something to do with the carnage left over from the cavalry charges in the same space earlier.

I've often thought about this though have never seen any written source to confirm or deny it. Any of you chaps out there have any corroborative information?

Pete

Has any wargamer considered a rethink of the Guard's 1815 troop gradings?

Are you serious? Napoleonic Francophiles aren't interested in any objective view of the Guard's performance. It would be like going upto the pope and saying "How about rethinking the whole God thing?" :-)

Because they had run out of culottes after 1813.

This made them easy for the trousered Netherlands troops to defeat, after the tommies had run for it – oops sorry they use the terminology 'retired in some confusion' don't they.

The Old Guard were not committed to the final attack on Wellington's center. 5 battalions of Middle Guard went forward. I think this whole question is pretty well documented now from a range of sources. This has been discussed at length here and elsewhere. This seems an odd question from someone who claims to be well informed on the period and the battle?

There was also the factor that they had a break from war, the same issue affected some British troops in Regiments like the 95th where Penninsular veterans ran but new men stood. There was not that iron hard do or die in them anymore.

IIRC the Guards were pants because everything started going pear shaped at the end.

Blucher, it is important not to let factually inaccurate statements stand unchallenged. Selective and inaccurate use of information to develop an argument needs to be corrected. That is why I sometimes post on threads that I find annoying.

As to the ing comment, I stick with it.

A better question is why "the knock out blow" consisted of only 5 battalions of middle guard.

Someone mismatched mission requirements with available combat power.

Result: La Garde recule!

LeSingeDew,

That is indeed a far better question; the force that actually attacked the ridge had virtually no chance at all of securing the desired victory. To me, it always seems like the gambler's last desperate throw of the dice, which was then mismanaged by Ney.

Also of interest to me is what would have happened if the OG attack had been a success. With the Prussians driving in his right flank and moving into his rear, I suspect that Napoleon, with a badly damaged and disorganised army, was still going to be defeated on the 18th June.

" In which part of England is pants an adjective "

It is pretty common usage around here. To my shame I even sent a text containing the word 'coolio' the other day, but it was slightly tongue in cheek to daughter number 2.

Anyway, the Guard were pants because they forgot all the modifiers (only a few listed above)

+1 for British
+1 uphill defenders
+1 for each open flank
+1 supported line

At a whopping +5 to the British you could put the Old Guard up against a bunch of militia and they'd still run away, let alone His Majesties Foot Guards.

I, too, have trouble with the strangeness of the language of the Queens.

Dear Raducci,

Perhaps one of us should take you quietly to one side to explain that what you wrote could be somewhat misinterpreted, especially if you repeated it out loud down here in Brighton…

Henry
Battlegames

M C LeSingeDew 13 Nov 2009 8:17 a.m. PST
''A better question is why "the knock out blow" consisted of only 5 battalions of middle guard. Someone mismatched mission requirements with available combat power.''

Well yes, if the attack was planned like that, then why did Bonaparte do it? He had 9 battalions.

nsolomon99 13 Nov 2009 3:36 a.m. PST
''The Old Guard were not committed to the final attack on Wellington's center. 5 battalions of Middle Guard went forward.''

Great point: would indicate they disobayed orders, since all 9 were ordered forward. Bony had 9 to use and all 9 were bought up to La Haye Sainte (close to the British line) by the small man himself and then spread out. Why do you think he sent them in piecemeal then? These were the ones that moved forward:

ATTACK of the IMPERIAL GUARD
__________________________________________________________

-(Adam)BBB..(Mait)BB..(Halk)BBBB (British line)-

^TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT^ (French skirm.)

^MG(4.Chas)…MG(2/3Chas)…MG(1/3Chas)…MG(4.Gren)…MG(1/3 Gren)^
(close col. of grand divisions).Cuiriassiers Cav
.
^HA……………………………HA^ (12 guns)
.
.
^MG(2/3Gren)…OG(2/1Chas)…OG(2/2)…OG(2/2Gren)^
(Old Guard in moving squares, 2-300 yds back)
__________________________________________________________

Re: Frontages:
British line frontage:
1000 men (worn)
Guard frontage 700 men (fresh, theoretical – if they'd been deployed side by side): 700 men
__________________________________________________________

raducci 13 Nov 2009 2:00 a.m. PST
''Feel free to PM me and I will help you phrase the phrases as they should go (should come?)''.

Bear that in mind. Thanks :-).

Conlinjallen,

"Also of interest to me is what would have happened if the OG attack had been a success."

Indeed. There doesn't seem to have been much hope of following up on any success.

Maybe that is what the other four battalions were for : )

colinjallen 13 Nov 2009 1:32 a.m. PST
''Cacadores, your numbers are way out''

Think not – they're confirmed by British and French sources.

''the British guards and the 52nd were still very strong at this stage of the battle''.

The British Guards had lost men to artillery, two hour cavalry charges and earlier attacks, besides losing two companies to Hougoumont.

''it is important not to let factually inaccurate statements stand unchallenged. Selective and inaccurate use of information to develop an argument needs to be corrected''.

Exactly. Mote in the eye? Please remember, you might disagree colinjallen, but there's no call to lose your composure. As to the fact that the Guard was assailed twice in the flank, I'd be interested in your (polite) thoughts about the obvious question:

if the Guard weren't pants, why did they halt long enough for two Allied units to get them from the side in the first place? One was by reserves! .

The 1st Foot Guards had also lost heavily at Quatre Bras.

IIRC, the 52nd fought in two "wings" at Waterloo – did both wings engage? The French Guards certainly seem to have traded volleys with the 52nd as Leeke mentions the number of men hit by enemy fire, including the other ensign in the colour party.

ha ha, very true Henry.

So, Cacadores theory is that the 9 battalions of Guard was ordered to advance.

4 battalions of Old Guard disobeyed the order and cowardly refused to fight.

5 battalions of middle guard advanced against an insignificant number of battered, decimated British units and, despite outnumbering them and having superior artillery support, halted, waited until the outnumbered and doomed British units could outflank them, and then bolted away like girly men?

It was the heroic hard-pressed knot of infantry against cowardly, fresh massed French troops and yet the British triumphed.

****

At least, with the French being farcicly incompetent, it makes the British victory against them appear insignificant and it is only a question of why the British even lost at Quatre bras… oh wait, that was a British Victory snatched from the jaws of defeat that the Dutch Belgians almost lost for them.