"Should Panzeri resign from the HMGS BOD?" Topic

Hold the popcorn. Three main contributors are currently in the Dawghouse; Ratisbon, Captain Danjou and Paints By Numbers. And Mullah Condray is NOT for his name calling ???!!! Oh Pleeze….. I can see it coming now from this great helper of all things convention-wise; "The BORG Board, The Avenging Angels Board,,,,,"

I know what the BORG are in Star Trek.

Thanks BuddyBoy2. I think I understand now. I have been trying to catch up on this.

Based on what was said at Fall-In, D-Day is Monday. We shall see.

Despite all the "evidence" that has been presented, I will follow my original inclination.
I think that Panzeri may have been misguided, but is not evil. IF he has come to his senses, who is better positioned to clean up the mess? I would rahter have someone who actually knows what happened around to fix things.
If we follows PBN's ideas and shoot the whole lot, who will be left to fix things?

Based on what was said at Fall-In, D-Day is Monday. We shall see.

I may change my mind then. But for now…

Man, am I glad I don't know the first thing about the HMGS's inner workings – nor do I want to know.

Man, am I glad I don't know the first thing about the HMGS's inner workings – nor do I want to know.

It's like how knowing how a sausage is made. In this case, however, it's a great big, half-eaten, old sausage that's about to turn bad, but you still used to enjoy so much that you're tempted to take one last bite, even if it might kill you…

Man, am I glad I don't know the first thing about the HMGS's inner workings – nor do I want to know.

I'm beginning to think that HMGS drama and cat fights are WORSE than that of a sorority. . . and I should know because I was a member of one for 4 years!

Who in their right mind would want to serve on the BOD of HMGS?

NJH

Don't call me Shirley.

I think I've played with toy soldiers longer than you have. So I know that the hobby pre-existed HMGS. And so did HM game conventions.

Unfortunately by the time of Wally's Basement, HM gaming had been downgraded. We were no longer the lunatic fringe of toy soldier collectors. We were step children of THE GREATER WORLD OF ADVENTURE GAMING (see page 11 of Volume I.)

In the 1960s east coast gamers usually attended both the regular MFCA convention (now back at Valley Forge)and the MFCA Wargame Convention run by Ed Miller (who still attends EAST conventions) and Bob Wall who died around 1990.

We had basements. There were a few (very few) shops that allowed gaming. And we had our circles of gaming buddies usually discovered at local toy soldier clubs.

But the high point of the HM gaming social season was the trip to Womrath Street for the MFCA Wargame Convention.

It gave us a chance to see what other gamers were up to, play people we didn't play every Wednesday night. Even the regular MFCA convention appealed since it normally had a painting competition category for wargame armies. We liked to see what the others were up to.

Anyway, it became PENNCON, and ORIGINS got started. But toy soldier wargaming was eclipsed. First by board gaming (tiddly wink pushers), then by fantasy role playing (FRIPPERS.)

Frank Chadwick's cardboard tiddly winks (System Seven Napoleonics) got "Best New Miniatures Line" at ORIGINS 80, confirming that our end of the hobby was indeed held in contempt by the rest of TGWAG.

By Wally's basement there were many HM gaming clubs up and down the mid-Atlantic Coast. Some had small local conventions. To use a lately infamous term, they wanted to take it to "the next level", and a natural outgrowth was HMGS and the convention program in which HM gaming would hold center stage.

If the guys from Old Colony, New York Wargamers, Potomac Wargamers, Triangle Simulation Society hadn't wanted something more, they wouldn't have sent representatives to Wally's Basement.

We did it and we're glad.

If you find such concepts demented and irrelevant, boycott Enfilade.

See if I care.

Pat Condray (WKPP)

Captain Danjou

I note you're in the DH, I didn't know that when I posted.

OK, who opened the door for Condray's latest unhistory sermon and his usual "Pats" on the back? I didn't read about anyone asking for it. Did anyone else see anyone asking for it? I didn't ask for it, did you ask for it? But we got it anyway.
Why don't we just draft Condray and Mattes (Fall In ball dropper) to run HMGS East by themselves and be done with it.
Do the SciFi/Fantasy boards have their own versions of our Condray and Mattes? Makes one think about converting away from historicals if they don't.

Pat Condray 19 Nov 2009 3:37 p.m. PST
NJH
Don't call me Shirley.

*NJH: I can surely do that.

I think I've played with toy soldiers longer than you have. So I know that the hobby pre-existed HMGS. And so did HM game conventions.

*NJH: I'm not sure I want to enter a contest to determine which of us hasn't fully grown up the longest. I'll freely admit I still find boyish glee in buying, painting, and playing with little soldiers. However, I'm not sure the length of time I've been endulging my boyish passion is relevant. I can't remember a time I didn't.

Unfortunately by the time of Wally's Basement, HM gaming had been downgraded. We were no longer the lunatic fringe of toy soldier collectors. We were step children of THE GREATER WORLD OF ADVENTURE GAMING (see page 11 of Volume I.)

*NJH: Ahhhh, so the "Founders" were upset because TGWAG wouldn't recognize the "Founders" for the great, wonderful, and important gamers they were?

……

We had basements. There were a few (very few) shops that allowed gaming. And we had our circles of gaming buddies usually discovered at local toy soldier clubs.

*NJH: I do not disagree, those circles would naturally accrete more gamers until a critical mass allowed them to do game days or cons. It's the natural order of the miniatures hobby.

……

Anyway, it became PENNCON, and ORIGINS got started. But toy soldier wargaming was eclipsed.

*NJH: I have to disagree. Gaming with little historical soldiers wasn't eclipsed, it expanded into scifi and fantasy (even FRP games). If anything, board gaming has been eclipsed to some degree by CCGs and Computer games. Many miniaturists game both sides of the lunatic fringe.

Frank Chadwick's cardboard tiddly winks (System Seven Napoleonics) got "Best New Miniatures Line" at ORIGINS 80, confirming that our end of the hobby was indeed held in contempt by the rest of TGWAG.

*NJH: I was there, and I still have my program. Yes, that was idiocy? However, was that contempt or ignorance? You and I may readily agree that System 7 was not a miniatures line, but those unfamiliar with the hobby might not make the distinction. Personally, I do not think that flats, or paper are true miniatures – others disagree. I'm also not completely sold on plastics despite the fact I think they are the immediate future of our hobby. It feels almost surreal to note that nearly sixty years ago I started with plastic and now it seems I will end my life with plastic. Ironic bookends to my pursuit of our hobby.

By Wally's basement there were many HM gaming clubs up and down the mid-Atlantic Coast. Some had small local conventions. To use a lately infamous term, they wanted to take it to "the next level", and a natural outgrowth was HMGS and the convention program in which HM gaming would hold center stage.

*NJH: A natural evolution, I understand.

If the guys from Old Colony, New York Wargamers, Potomac Wargamers, Triangle Simulation Society hadn't wanted something more, they wouldn't have sent representatives to Wally's Basement.

*NJH: There seems to be some disagreement as to what that "more" was.

We did it and we're glad.

*NJH: No need to justify your actions to me, I don't have a bone to pick with the natural order of things.

If you find such concepts demented and irrelevant, boycott Enfilade.

*NJH: That's a non sequitur.

See if I care.

*NJH: I'm fairly sure you're not losing sleep at night over my Enfilade attendance record.

BTW – I have paid admission and made an appearance at all of them. Once I had my wife drive me to Enfilade because I was too doped up with meds to drive. Another Enfilade was the same weekend as my daughter's wedding, but I still made an appearance (in hindsight I should have missed the wedding and spent my weekend at the convention).

BuddyBoy2 19 Nov 2009 5:34 p.m. PST
OK, who opened the door for Condray's latest unhistory sermon and his usual "Pats" on the back? I didn't read about anyone asking for it. Did anyone else see anyone asking for it? I didn't ask for it, did you ask for it? But we got it anyway.

*NJH: Mea Culpa. I guess I'm responsible by hinting that the "Founders" didn't invent the historical miniatures hobby, or that they didn't save it from TGWAG. I'm not sure which. I am sorry, but Mr Condray and I discuss this every couple years. I don't think the "Founders" did anything spectacular, I view their actions as an inevitable part of our hobby's evolution. Others think otherwise.

John the OFM, whose opinions I respect on all things from AWI to Zulus, may have stumbled on a solution to the current situation which can be summarized as follows.

According to Pat Condray's earlier posts, the current Convention Director for Historicon 2010 is opposed to having the convention in Baltimore. This, according to Pat, has brought about an effort to move the convention to Valley Forge (or another place much further south where it's hot all the time.) However, there still remains the small (or not so small, depending on who you believe) issue of the "contract" with the Convention Center in Baltimore. I say "contract" because in the opinion, or at least the wishes, of some, there is no contract. On this point, the HMGS East BOD has apparently spent unknown dollars (unknown to the membership, at least) to have the "contract(s)" reviewed by legal counsel.

Although the situation may change by the time I finish typing this, I think this is a fair summary to date.

John the OFM, in his infinite wisdom, writes "who is better positioned [than Pete Panzeri] to clean up the mess.?" This is an idea that is worth exploring. Now, reasonable minds may disagree on who caused "the mess," how big "the mess" is, how to clean up "the mess" and whether there is even a "mess." But if the current Historicon Convention Director does not want to have the convention in Baltimore (for whatever reasons) and the former President of HMGS East is familiar with the details of the situation in Baltimore AND HMGS East cannot get out of its contractual obligations without the risk of bankrupting the organization, one possible course of action for the BOD is actually simple: stay in Baltimore and make Panzeri Convention Director for Historicon 2010.

Now before all of you start screaming, let's look at some of the alternatives, the main one being a move to Valley Forge. Without a complete release from its contractual obligations in Baltimore, a move to VF could potentially put HMGS East "on the hook" for two convention centers. Thus, one convention at possibly twice the cost.

Even if HMGS East (notice I say East because I know how sensitive you "non-Easters" are) could get out of its obligations, the legal fees involved could just as easily cripple the organization financially, or at the very least set it back several years. How do I know? Well, for almost the past thirty years when I'm not hosting games at HMGS East conventions, I play lawyer with my non-gaming friends. Litigation is very expensive. Legal fees can add up faster than the amounts at stake. Notice that I take no position on the merits of HMGS East's legal position. To me, it's irrelevant. Remember what the Duke of Wellington said: "the only thing worse than a battle lost is a battle won." Even if HMGS East somehow "wins" its case to get out of Baltimore, the costs may still ruin us. I say "us" because I am a member.

If the convention remains in Baltimore, Panzeri has an interest in making it succeed. Thus, he is a logical candidate for Convention Director BUT ONLY of a convention that is in Baltimore. With proper oversight and direction from the BOD, Historicon 2010 could still be a success.

But what of the current Historicon Convention Director, you say? Well, if the convention moves to Valley Forge, I say good luck to him. He'll need it. If anyone can pull it off, he can. I have been fortunate to know him for years, have enjoyed playing in his games and have run games at conventions where he has been the Director. I hope that I will continue to do so in the future.

If the convention stays in Baltimore, however, and he continues to have his doubts about that location and the convention's potential for success there, I hope that he would recognize that he is not the man for the job. That is not to say that he should resign as Convention Director. Like Pat Condray, I also think that he is the "Best Convention Director of All Time." He just should not be Director of a convention in Baltimore. If I were on the BOD, I would vote without hesitation to have him as Historicon Convention Director for 2011.

This solution is not that unusual. During WW2 in the Pacific Theater, Nimitz after Midway picked two Admirals, Halsey and Spruance, to win the war. While one was on campaign, the other was back at Pearl Harbor planning the next campaign. It was a personnel strategy that worked. In our situation, Pete can see Baltimore through to its conclusion; Bob can start to plan for 2011; and the Duke can even have his farewell extravaganza. Win-Win-Win, if we are lucky.

If HMGS East survives 2010, and I think it will (unless we keep paying more lawyers), it will still need a Historicon Convention Director for 2011 AND a location for that convention. A one year sabbatical from running Historicon will give many who have well and loyally served the convention, and HMGS East, the opportunity to plan for the convention and the hobby's future.

Something for all of us to think about between now and then.

47Ronin: "….a move to VF (VAlley Forge) could potentially put HMGS East "on the hook" for two convention centers."

Surely the current HMGS BoD is not going to sign for a second venue before they somehow dispose of the former venue contract. But then there's shirley again.
I might add that I was at Fall-In and to my recollection the BoD "hoped" to have some word by the 23d. I didn't take that as a promise that all would be smoothed over by then. Let's not start grabbing the pitchforks and rakes until they can inform us all better. If there is no answer by the 23d it would be nice if they could come on and let us know more details and what may be holding up the works.
Toby Barrett

Blue Devil 88: "Condray v.Master Caster was great. Caster by decision"

Thanks Blue. Didn't want you to think that went by unnoticed.

"What is your agenda, PBN?"

Yeah, he started the thread. But judging by the number of posts since he went in the slammer, there are sufficient agendas to go around, and then some.

"I might add that I was at Fall-In and to my recollection the BoD "hoped" to have some word by the 23d. I didn't take that as a promise that all would be smoothed over by then."

Sounds like a fair point, Toby. However, I suspect that there are plenty who think they heard differently, or want their buddy's second cousin's boyfriend who told *them* to have heard it differently, so that Monday will arrive with torches blazing:

YouTube link

Allen

stay in Baltimore and make Panzeri Convention Director for Historicon 2010.

…….. I hope you are joking right? If not that has to be the dumbest things I have ever seen on TMP … Ever!

Mike B

Hi Allen:
Yes, Yes, I forgot the torches.

"…….. I hope you are joking right? If not that has to be the dumbest things I have ever seen on TMP … Ever!"

Yeah, that's like giving the wolf the keys for the hen house. How much MORE would it cost us?! Just give him $500,000 and tell him to make it work? I don't think so.

Toby:

I don't know what the BOD is going to do. I don't know if they know, either. As far as the "deadline" of this Monday, my advice to them would be to take their time before they decide anything. According to some, the review process for the move to Baltimore took years. A decison to move to VF may be made after only a few weeks consideration.

One of the reasons I started the "Plan B" topic in conjunction with this post was so that the BOD could get some feedback from its "client base" (members, GMs and dealers) in anticipation of any potential move to VF. If you thought the "old" BOD got complaints about "nobody told us you were moving Historicon to Baltimore," wait until the current BOD announces a move to VF, should that be the case.

To the others: I'm glad you think I have such a well developed sense of humor, but I'm not joking. Go back and look at some of the things Pat Condray wrote earlier. I don't know whether the BOD would authorize a SECOND move of Historicon 2010 before getting out of its obligations with the BCC, but I am hearing that they have already spent thousands of dollars on legal fees in anticipation of such a move and may be planning to spend even more.

Something tells me that we may set new records for "dumbest things ever seen on TMP" in the not too distant future. Stay tuned.

We may not know much, but at least we have our speculation!

Pat Condray: In response to Buddyboy2, please feel free to post any historical background information about the events before and after Wally's Basement. I find it fascinating so keep it coming.

Fritz: a couple of examples – our group used to travel up
and down the East Coast, doing gamer gatherings in NJ,
Pa., Md., Va., etc.

Miniatures gamers, whether HM or not (rare, the latter in
those days) usually got the worst locations. We were at
Glassboro State Teacher's College (NJ) and were sent to
a CHEM LAB to set up ! Kind of difficult to run a game
when the surface is interdicted with sinks, burners, etc.
But we persevered, 'obtained' some plywood from a near-by
construction site (balancing 4'x8' sheets of plywood on
car tops while driving sedately through campus), and ran
the games on flat surfaces.

At an early (1968) 'convention' (attendance was about 80,
all up, mostly BG), we were told by the (dis)organizer
that miniatures took waaaay too much space, so they
really didn't want us there (after soliciting the games !)
after all. We'd driven about 6 hours to the venue, with
of course the packing, load-out, etc. A couple of the
other folks there invited us to their home(s) to run
games, fed us, and generally made the trip worth while.

As the fantasy and BG element of TGWAG grew, miniatures
(of any stripe) were not welcomed, since the con
organizers generally preferred a game where 4-6
attendees could fit around a small table, at anywhere
from $20 USD to $60 USD a head. A miniatures game required much
more space, so from a $/square foot consumed standpoint,
mini's weren't nearly as welcome as paper games.

As recently as two weeks ago, we were INVITED to run some
HM at a convention about 2 hours from here. For this con,
which is heavily RPG/BG, we take scenarios with which an
RPG'er will feel comfortable, and run those.

In previous years, all mini's had had a room to themselves
(a large salon). This year, we were cheek by jowl with a
LOT of BG's. It was very difficult to talk over all the
noise. The organizer simply said he needed the room and
if we couldn't cope, just look at all the paying heads
around the room and compare to the 28 involved in the
miniatures (one HM, one Carwars, one Warlord, at the
time).

So the struggle continues. We have, however, picked up
some new players by our attendance at this convention,
who do come to our cons and enjoy themselves.

Many more examples, but I've already been long-winded
enough.

Fritz, sorry I forgot the before/after piece (Pat's
far better able than I to address 'after').

Before: basically, there'd been some correspondence
following some disgruntled commentary at an MFCA show.
Wally Simon sent 'round a letter to many of us (well,
'many' isn't really that large a number) and that
was followed-up by 'phone calls, etc. After a bit of
this (and I can't say how long, but perhaps a few weeks)
I placed a call to Dick Bryant (Courier editor/owner
at the time) and said, simply, that it was time for us
to put up or shut up.

I think Bob and his dog posted a link to a copy of the
letter Wally sent out. I've got copies of the follow-
on correspondence (as I'm sure Pat does), but we just
got off our butts and did something.

I usually do not come out here to address gossip items, but I wanted to address this important mis-information that is being spread about me (from Pat Condray) and now seemingly compounded into gospel truth.

Back in January, when the BoD had narrowed its choices down to the BBC, we were asked after a cursory view of the venue, if the BCC would fill most requirements for presenting HISTORICON. I, nor any of my HISTORICON team, ever said we did not want to run a convention at the BCC, in Baltimore. The converse is also true, as we never said we wanted to run one there over any other place either. What was said is that our type of convention can work there… "provided the parking issue can be solved, as there is no on site parking and that causes a big problem for dealers, GMs and flea marketeers". Unfortunately, the parking issue was never really solved to any reasonable person's satisfaction.

Just so you understand the problem, the proposed parking solution for dealers was to rent half of the one parking lot adjacent to the BCC, owned by Sheraton Inner Harbor. The BoD at the time wanted this cost absorbed directly into the HISTORICON budget. This solution however, was later found to be contingent upon selling 80% of the room nights blocked at $189/night (plus 13.5% tax) at the Sheraton, making it dependant on the sale of very (well to me anyway) high priced rooms and impossible to lock down a "true" cost in our budget. This info was ONLY made available early August when the BoD POC for negotiations made the hotel contracts available.

This and other emerging inconsistencies prompted me to write a 9-page letter detailing all the "concerns" that members of the HISTORICON team and I had, and sent it to the BoD in July. I found that our letter to the BoD brought up things that they (the BoD) did not know at the time, because they were not told by the BoD POC.

My "concerns" included a rough budget, very much in the red. BTW, our budget does NOT have $20,000 set aside for any one speaker (or speakers), as two people are trying to falsely claim. This would be impossible, as I would never make an offer to a speaker (especially of that magnitude), unless I already had run it past the BoD for approval. While travel and per diems may be negotiated directly by the CDs, my first response if a targeted speaker requested a speaking fee or stipend such as that would be to pass that info on to the ConOps, later we would discuss if it was both worth it and doable. Then comes the neat battle over whether or not the speaker belongs to convention, education or chapter budget. That is how things are done properly and our detractors should know that for fact.

A final budget for HISTORICON at the BCC was submitted October 23rd. This reflected things unknown prior, and thus was deeper in the red. Since then more things have come up that the BCC will not agree to (and which will cost more money), even though they verbally agreed back in May to the BoD POC for the negotiations.

[Note: In the "Green Book", promises were made by the previous BoD about giving some GMs free parking, which meant even more expense to the HISTORICON budget, though the cost of that "scheme" was unknown, and therefore that extra cost still is not in the budget.]

One important aspect that was pointed out on TMP, and which was becoming very clear, but which I alerted the BoD POC for negotiations about as early as February 2009. Was that the average cost of hotels (plus 13.5% tax) across the street from the BCC, coupled with parking costs at those hotels, was about +50% more than attendees paid in Lancaster. This would likely impact attendance, which in my and some of my team's opinion, made Baltimore a very high risk venture.

The current BoD concurred and also realized the cost of a mitigation plan adding many more staff just to assist GMs and flea marketeers with unloading/loading/storage of their items (since there was no onsite parking) was skyrocketing. Couple those concerns with things that were promised by the BCC, but never agreed to in writing, and Baltimore became extremely expensive financially.

[From my point of view and those of members of my team, it is apparent that if HISTORICON 2010 is at the BCC, then the current BoD must accept losing lots of money (more than originally thought) and/or raise prices, probably raising prices at least 3x more than what they would at another venue.]

Clearly the wild card here is about the last part of BCC keeping its oral promises. When the BoD approached them to add those assurances to the contract…well that is how we are where we are, I can say no more.

My team and I agreed to be part of a move for HISTORICON, the "flagship" show of HMGS and the largest historical miniatures show in North America. If we would have felt otherwise we would have told the BoD from the outset. That's not how we operate; there are dealers, GMs, attendees, etc. (many of which have become friends and colleagues over the years), to consider. We owe it to them to do the best we can with what we are given to work with, to ensure HISTORICON remains "Historical Miniature Gaming's Biggest Summer Vacation!"

Regards,
Bob Giglio, Convention Director – HISTORICON

Thanks for the info.

Well Bob summed it up perfectly. This entire move was about some people just completely ignoring any facts that interfered with their desired conclusion. Gross negligence of the highest order. And frankly very unfair to the convention team that has to make it work.

yes, Bob, thanks for presenting your side of the "story".

One question. You mention oral agreements that were not reflected in the written contracts.

Did you experience, or know of others, who also were part of these oral discussions/agreements? Or are you reflecting what the POC is telling you and the BOD, what he/she/they thought they had oral agreement on?

If it is just our POC making these claims, then the questions becomes: who was responsible for reviewing the terms in writing to ensure the oral agreements were reflected in writing? And was this done before being signed?
And if they were not, the obvious is…well why not?

If there are others who participated in these oral discussions, OR heard the same agreements separately from the BCC personnel it becomes less of a "he said she said situation" if there are other witnesses who can corroborate how/what happened.

And to be clear from others commenting on the BOD minutes citing the BOD's vote to proceed with negotiating a contract with BCC: did the 4-1-1 vote really establish the authority to negotiate and enter into a contract? Or did it establish that the 2 man team NEGOTIATE a contract and leave the concluding part unaddressed at that time?

There is a subtle difference in responsibility/duty. In the former the BOD has given all responsibility to the person/team, a somewhat risky, IMO thing to do when they have a duty to protect the society's assets from harm. In the latter, you assign someone to do the grunt work, but reserve the important responsibility to review and protect the society from undue risk from mis-guided, faulty or sloppy work that could put the society at risk, which is what apparently is what is happening.

IMO, One important quality for an elected HMGS-E leader to have a clear understanding of what one is NOT an expert on. We all have qualifications of one sort or another, but even lawyers retain OTHER lawyers when faced with issues that are personal or not their specialty. To negotiate contracts that could cause financial duress requires both capable people and a capable process that includes safeguards such as expert oversight and review before execution. And I'd like to know if we had either involved in this situation, so that we can learn going forward.

As a society we hadn't faced the issues associated with a NEW location [and all the attendant issues] in so many years perhaps those skills and processes necessary to conclude a relatively complicated agreement [vice the Host/Ike agreements] may very well have not been in place at least not in the POC team/BOD as it was then? If we do this again, I'd suggest retaining appropriate counsel.

Well sure, if you have to bring a legal team with you…

I bet a set of zombie rules would work…..

we could get both sides to meet over a game table to play it off, winning side gets their terms in effect

Dear Forum,

Some interesting posts and POVs offered! I served as an active convention volunteer from 2002 through 2008, the success of HMGS-East, not only as a organization that puts on financially viable conventions, but also as a growth-oriented non-profit organization, has always held my interest.

As an attorney-at-law, in practice for nearly thirty years, some of the current board members should be aprised that I would happily lend a helping hand.

Continue to hope for the best and always prepare for contingencies.

Sincerely,
Wayne

kyoteblue 21 Nov 2009 7:17 p.m. PST
See Allen only the Lawyers need go.

*NJH: What about Doctors, they make good money? How about politicians, they know how to acquire money? Kyoteblue, if you need a loan, I know a guy who knows a guy that can make it happen. Just don't be late on the payments.

Interesting thread and Post #200!!!!!!

Rick

Good follow up questions, too good actually as you've hit on part of the controversy. As the board put out earlier, most of this is being reviewed by the lawyers; which means Bob as a non-voting officer of the corp won't be able to respond to specifics. That's also why it's a little unfair to characterize this as his side of the story. Believe me when I tell you there was quite a bit happening over the course of these contracts, much of which we have only recently found out, and a whole lot of it more complex than it probably ought to have been. What you read barely touches on his side of the story.

Bob's post was meant to clear up any misconceptions concerning the Historicon Convention Committee's (HCCs) influence on the site selection process and setting of speaking fees. He supported this with a time line and references to the SOP. At no point did he attempt to fix any blame, point any fingers, etc. From our (the HCCs) point of view we were on the hook to do our best, wherever the convention landed, and our primary concern was what we could make work and what we couldn't. This was followed closely by how each item affected our budget. Beyond that our personal feelings were not part of the equation.

Just for full disclosure, beyond the CD, convention committee members are not officers of the corporation and are not compelled by any board restrictions. From time to time we have need of certain proprietary information and also at times the respective CD (Bob in Historicon's case) may have us sit in on board proceedings. When this happens it's understood that we agree to respect the privacy of the board, so don't bother looking for any senior staff tell alls. Its my understanding that when the board is through unraveling all of the move problems they intend to try and make enough sense of it to put out a clear report to the membership. Hopefully, by then all sides will have been heard and they will be able to put together something that benefits the convention, membership, and organization in a way that impedes things from getting out of hand…again.

Neil Brennan
Deputy Director – HISTORICON

Tomorrow will tell!
Maybe…

Thanks for your comments Neil.

I meant no other implication other than to thank Bob for his observations and realize my use of parenthesis around the word story could be read by others that I was skeptical or disbelieving in his statement. i am also sure he has more insight than his post and that it had a specific intent, not to be a "tell all".

The most hopeful thing, IMO, is that there WILL BE a careful recounting of the situation, a course of action selected that does not harm the viability of HMGS-E, and an honest recounting by the BOD to the membership, when it is appropriate.

There may be viable reasons behind the acts of commission/omission in this situation, and I am willing to wait to find out.

I personally hope we end up with an Historicon convention that doesn't harm the society's viability wherever and whenever that might be.

My computer has mercifully been in dry dock for the last 2 weeks and due to health I have restricted myself to one convention a year, Historicon if it still exists. However, based on the information I got from those who attended Fall In! I have a number of comments.

First, for 501c3s contracts are a matter of public information and the board has made it a matter of policy that all corporate papers are subject to inspection by the members. Other than the fact they are an embarrassment there is no reason not to post all agreements.

Second, business 101, you never sign a contract that doesn't resolve all known major issues, which we apparently did.

Third, you never enter into an agreement without the authority of the board, which Pete appears to have done.

Fourth, the board never allows a member to enter into an agreement greater than $500 USD without fully reviewing that agreement.

Fifth any agreement with the lawyers for representation and payment should be posted on-line. Rule Number 1, if you don't have an agreement and/or you haven't paid your lawyer, YOU DON'T HAVE A LAWYER!

But then what do I know?

Bob Coggins
Founder
Historicon Director for 8 years
Board member for over 10 years
Moved Historicon to Harrisburg
Moved Historicon to Lancaster
Part of the team that negotiated contracts with the Penn Harris, the Host, Timonium Fairgrounds and the Timonium Holiday Inn Select

"My computer has mercifully been in dry dock for the last 2 weeks and due to health……"

Ratisbon, you were in the Dawghouse too. Let's be completely honest now.

blimey!….Now I remember why I've not had anything to do with (semi) organised wargaming clubs/societies and the folk who run/participate in them for the last 20 years.

I knew Pete was a popular guy, now we see he has generated almost 210 posts. He has always been a helpful and friendly person to me. I have not agreed with all of his policies, but I defend his right to strive for them. Perhaps his exposure to the big business of gaming that he saw at Origins all those years he represented the HM hobby there influenced him to try them with our activities. I really did like the Lewis and Clark game he ran at 2008 Fall in.

>I am sure the Pete-puppets will again leap to his defense and defame me as they did PBN
>

Let's sue the bastards !!!

>Perhaps his exposure to the big business of gaming that he saw at Origins all those years he represented the HM hobby there influenced him to try them with our activities.
>

"Where, by the way, is the dividing line between treason and folly? It is very hard to draw it, especially since every traitor can always claim he was merely foolish if his treachery fails to succeed."
-- _The Goebbels Diaries_, Sept. 23, 1943

I really did like the Lewis and Clark game he ran at 2008 Fall in.

and therein lies the risk to our organization, Bob.

Because we get to know one another socially over a shared interest, we forget the other dimensions of the person…"Gee this guy may be a killer GM, but does he knows anything about negotiating complicated legal contracts with high powered, experienced corporations?"

"Is he/the BOD qualified to do this?" and "Do they have expert assistance"?

And when those questions are not asked, in part because the guy impressed us in some other capacity, we find ourselves in the quicksand we are in.

We elected a BOD to ask these questions of themselves and any individuals they task to specific duties…

I hope they did so……

Until the facts are more clearly presented, I have no intention on attending CW'10 or Historicon'10….

Alot of views are offered, what is lacking is a clear vision and plan for 2010. As I recall, the lookouts on the White Star liner Titanic, both had "views" of the horizon on that cold April night back in 1912, but since their binoculars were securely locked away below decks, that night, their "vision" was tragically shortsided……

Hoping for the best, nonetheless…..

Regards,
Wayne

TMP link

>Pat [CONDRAY], would this be like the Omerta deal Pete said he had with you? You know the one where for your support of the BCC, Pete promised you a room directly across the street at the staff rate.

Neil Brennan
>

Hmmmm….

Pat [CONDRAY], would this be like the Omerta deal Pete said he had with you? You know the one where for your support of the BCC, Pete promised you a room directly across the street at the staff rate.

Neil Brennan
>

Hmmmm….

Neil,
From the way you are so adamantly slinging excuses and accusations, it makes me proud to see that you are following the 5 ds of Dodge ball. You know, Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, and Dodge. Patches O'Hollihan would be extremely proud of you.

chuck kennedy

Chuck

What excuses? You'll have to explain that one, but since you chose to dip your beak into an argument that isn't yours and one that you have no knowledge of then let me set you straight.

First off Pat has continued to repeat an accusation that we have told him is untrue. As most of his fractured fairy tales that he has spun over the many, many years; he simply made something up that fit the story he wished to bore everyone with or as he puts it "fill in the blanks". Normally, I don't engage Pat when he is in the middle of one of his flaming diatribes, as there is no point. The man has proven time and time again that he has no respect for the truth or for that matter control of his well known poison pen. This is substantiated by his being kicked off the HMGS Finance Committee, thrown out of a chapter, and HMGS even has a code of coduct rule which was instituted in direct result of Pat's actions in meetings and in the news letter. Just look at any of the other forums or the HMGS Yahoo boards and you will not be able to find a post by Pat that had a good word for anyone. He is always right and everyone else is stupid, dishonest, or crazy.

When I posted up about him the other day it was in response to his latest foolishness. While in retrospect I should have just left it alone, he caught me at a bad moment and my response was knee jerk. Now even though that was the case, it was no less accurate. The room thing was related to me and others directly from Pete Panzeri. Pete had no reason to lie about this, while Pat has made bending the truth a life long career. If you or he has any gripes about it, you should take it up with Pete. I however, have come to my senses and decided to go back to ignoring Pat. While I may step to correct his fairy tales in the future it will be only to provide those who may not know him the other side of the story (you know, the one he never acknowledges). As for Pat, trying to enlighten an intractable mind is a waste of time and effort.

Neil Brennan

Gentlemen of TMP

A heartfelt apology to all of you. While I have been spending most of my free time lately working with the rest of the HCC to have our convention packages ready for when the board announces the HCon 2010 resolution, I took a little time off to engage with a re-occuring itch. While my intent was to set the record straight, I went a bit overboard, which only encouraged him to drone on with more posts. For this I apologize to all of you.
Normally, I am one of the guys people look to to solve problems. I am not used to being part of the problem. In the future I'll try to keep any replies short and to the point.

Neil Brennan

Pete had no reason to lie about this,

No reason to lie? Was it a day without a "d" in it?

YY

Neil:
I don't see any reason for you to apologize. You didn't start it and I understand very well where you're coming from and why.
Toby Barrett