"GW sucker punches fan base for specialist games." Topic

Exactly! If you don't like what GW is doing don't buy their product. If they start losing money I'm sure they will start to rethink their practices. WE, as the consumer have the power to shut down companies that are acting irresponsible or idiotic. I could never understand the a'lour of anything GW. I did try Epic, but quickly got out of it. Looking at the prices GW are demanding for their "Drug", I'm glad I did.

I like to think of Games Workshop as a gang of home invaders. If you let them, they would kick in your door, slaughter your children, have their way with your wife, eat your family pets, and after they've beaten you to within an inch of your life, they'll say "Prices increase 25% next month. Order your resin Baneblade Tank today and you could save a hundred bucks!"

The victim/fan, ninety times out of a hundred, would order the tank.

The Talk Bloodbowl guys might be angry, but they'll come crawling back, and they might even apologize for abusing GW's faith in them.

GW has no real case here. The only reason people are giving in is they can't afford to fight GW on this. It's just not worth it.

For example, hondaforum.com is an unofficial forum for people to talk about Honda's products. Honda has no right to their domain name. Neither do they have the right to a domain name talking about the prius.

Valator has the size of it. GW does so much stuff against it's fanbase and they just lie down and take it.

GW has sent out more C&D letters. Appearently they are having a ball at this.

Why in the world do rational gamers support a company with this attitude?

I am sure, It happens in many industries but seems to get very high profiled among gamers.

I quit supporting their products as a store back in the 1980s with their minimum quarterly sales and quanity per item (3 or 6) requirements. i have never played any of their systems as an individual.

@joedog – This occured quite a while back and prior to this letter it had not been an established policy of theirs. The store (now gone) had been receiving wonderful service and found itself suddenly cut-off from service it had enjoyed up until that point.

GW changes the rules at it's whim and gives little regard to the people it hurts in the process. In our area, it was pretty clear for the longest time that GW wanted to push out the local FLGS and funnel more business directly to their own stores.

@werwulf – I did just this thing and sold off all my GW stuff too.

-Eli

GW is a gaming superpower in a field with few superpowers. So, it can practically do whatever it likes and it will still have support if not absolute approval by people who have no knowledge or ability to make a choice and go elsewhere for what they need. Even if you dislike GW's approach, the hobby is so heavily influenced by it's actions there is no escaping it.

Interesting parallel there. :)

Heck. I just saw a post from tabletopgamingnews about how GW is now throwing a hissy fit over 3rd party fantasy football players and are apparently threatening to pull the rules for all Star Players that don't have official GW miniatures from LRB6

GW has long had a problem understanding just how popular Bloodbowl is despite their attempts to ignore, kill, or otherwise downplay it. These players ARE goiing to discuss, expand, vary, and play Bloodboowl no matter what GW says or does. It has simply not occured to GW that many Bloodbowl players are not AT ALL interested in 40k or WFB as games, and that no amount of marketing will change this. This "problem" goes back at least 15-20 years…

It doesn't matter HOW much influence people THINK GW has, it is YOU as a consumer, who GIVE them that power! The problem is that to MANY people are o.k. with GW BULLYING gamers around and charging INSANE prices. I think that if more OUTRAGED players of GW products started to inform other players,ESPECIALLY the younger ones, of these "Gangsta tactics" and boycotted the products for a month or two, one would see some changes. It doesn't matter how BIG or SMALL the gaming community is, as a matter of fact because it's such a niche community I think a boycott of GW would cause problem very quickly. It's crazy that people will let themselves be taken advantage of knowingly and at something we care so much for.

I find it amazing how so many people whine and cry about GW's policies and still purchase items from GW. There are much better figures and games on the market these days, and most without an overabundance of skulls on every surface of 80% of the models or publications.

"In the grim darkness of the near future, there is only BANKRUPTCY!!!!"

I think a boycott of GW would cause problem very quickly.

You'd have to get it to stick with the younger set, which will be rather hard to do. Remember, GW's sales and marketing model is based on 'churn', so they are used to losing customers off the 'old' end of the demographic.

People have talked about boycotts for years. Hasn't happened. Won't happen. Instead, individuals just need to start putting their money and effort into other things. Instead of going to your gaming buddies and going "let's boycott GW!" just stop playing, painting and most of all buying their stuff.

And put your money and effort into something else. Influence things on a social/grass roots level rather than trying to organize some sort of boycott via the internet.

I blogged about this today and thought I'd post it here as well: homebrewgamer.blogspot.com

Recenty GW has recieved a lot of bashing due to several cease and desist letters going out to websites who are technically breaking their IP rules. There are people on both sides of the fence on this issue. Some GW apologists pointing out they are just doing what any good business would do, while others are pointing out that it's just another punch in the gut to GW's fanbase. I think the truth, as always, lies somewhere in between.

I grew up playing rogue trader. I remember boxes of 20-30 plastics running about 19$ US, vehicles too. Of course the lines were small and extremely limited but hey, it was a fun game and they were, for the time, some nice miniatures.

The problem arises when GW hit upon the fact that they basically had a captive audience. No one else was really producing a solid scif line of miniatures or rules. They existed, but not to the extent that 40K did. Once they figured this out (and I whole heartedly believe decisions following this 'epiphany' were consciously made to make money, period) it kicked off a series of unfortunate and honestly disgusting business practices that has since tarnished their name.

Effectively, you can't spend 12-15 years making bad public relations calls like cutting out online stores, and ever increasing price hikes for no good reason (GW never provided reasons that held any water) or edition changes in a cycle that left some armies out of the loop for nearly a decade. all of this is still going on, however at the very least GW has begun to provide a better product in my opinion, in their miniatures kits.

So you spend that 12-15 years really punching your fanbase in the gut, then when you go on to do something that might actually make some business sense, it's seen as the same. I think it's been earned by the company.

Here's the other real kicker that I think underlines the inherent flaw in falling back on legalese to support you as a 'good' person. You can choose to send cease and desist letters to everyone you need to. It's off putting, and somewhat intimidating, and maybe it's meant to be. OR you can get someone with some personal skills to send off a nice email, make a call or whatever else to say 'hey, we really appreciate you supporting our products with your website. Unfortunately to protect our IP we had to provide some rules for how people could use our trademarked names, and the domain name you're using violates this. We'd really appreciate you changing it to something that does not violate our policy. Thanks for your support.'

I'm going to guss that's going to look a lot better and get a better response than something more official. It also gives you the oppurtunity to be the good guy for once, and you can follow up with something more official if someone fails to comply. This basically highlights the problem with business and with the way GW is handling theirs. They'd rather act like a big business then say, human beings.

As for boycotts' not only do they never work, it will never happen and it's basically a dumb idea.

If you want to make some sort of impact, encourage your gaming group to play other games. There's hundreds if not thousands of alternatives these days for miniatures and rules sets, alot of them are really good too. Spend time exploring alternatives and less energy on angst driven calls for boycotts and witch burnings.

I do believe what you are suggestion is the same as a boycott?

"To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion."

So I don't know why you would call something dumb and suggest the same idea, just adding 50 more words to it.

Hi guys

I'm not sure that I'm stating the obvious, but I am a keen trawler of e-bay for figures.Point being what if GW banned e-bay from using their trademarks?

GW must find all the good, cheap, give-away even items on e-bay a bit galling.

Why even go to the shop?

If I want 40k or WHFB or LOTR I can pick it up cheap.

That must really nark them off.

hmm e-bay vs GW who would win?

While they have made some terrible business decisions over the years, restricting sales by online stores was actually one of the better decisions that GW made – if you are interested in the gaming industry. While people like to argue that this was done solely to boost sales at GW Mail Order, it was also done to help local B&M stores stay in business, and to provide better service/support to customers.

Some of you may remember that, during the mid to late 90s, many retailers were selling GW product online (notably on ebay) that they did not actually have in stock. This caused problems when a customer purchased an item that the etailer was then not able to deliver (or was unable to deliver in a timely manner). It particularly led to problems with limited edition items and new releases that were temporarily in limited supply. Customers blamed GW, rather than blaming the unscrupulous merchants.
This situation also made it difficult for smaller stores that weren't engaged in dishonest etail marketing to maintain satisfactory inventories – again particularly of new or limited edition products. It also made it difficult for the more upstanding etailers to keep the line – as there were a flood of people who were selling new product at cost (or pennies above), and there were enough unfilled orders that online game stores as whole were gaining a reputation as being unreliable and crooked.
While some retailers are essentially clubs organized so that the owner and a few friends can purchase things for themselves at wholesale prices, and any excess product (ordered to meet minimum order sizes, or to qualify for "prize support") can be sold off at cost, real stores must make a profit. Having people devalue the core products is not good for the industry. For an example of this, take a look at what has happened to game stores that relied heavily on MtG, and how many of them failed during the reign of the online discounters. WOTC is now trying many things to support actual game shops, as they have seen a decline in sales over time as fewer game stores caused fewer new customers to enter the market.

@Joedog,

There is nothing wrong with etail. It is a busines model that is just as valid as any other. With the exception of the tricksters you mentioned, etailers don't do anythign wrong doing what they do.

I will also throw forward this gauntlet – most of the B&M stores I have been into really don't deserve any special consideration. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, but they are just that.

My sad experience has been that traditional game store and hobby shops tend to be owner and/or staffed by gaming trolls who really don't want anything to do with people and who can't tell good business sense if it smacks them in the face.

Too often have I been ignored, misled, argued with, imposed upon, put off, and generally miffed by B&M stores. I have had shop owners order the wrong thing and try to blame me. I have had staff berate me for my taste in games. I have been promised custom order service only to have to jump through hoop after hoop to get it.

I have yet to run into anything like these things with etailers. Sure I may not be able to get everything in one shopping trip online, bu I never could at local stores anyhow. But, the etailers are happy to take my order and delivery what they promise andm ake good when they make a mistake.

Your experiences may vary, but I do not see that B&M have done anything to earn them any sort of special consideration or need for protection over etailers. The name of the game is competition.

-Eli

The game store as the central hub of the local gaming community is a flawed model because at it's core is a commercial interest. The club/organization as the central hub is the way to go. Gaming stores don't deserve any special consideration over a store that's in any other industry.

9 times out of 10, you'd be better off ordering online and using the savings to rent premises for club days.

To get this back on topic:

Imagine you participated in a fan forum for another type of product. Perhaps you posted on a honda forum about hybrids. Or on a video game forum about a Playstation. Or a fabric forum about sewing. How would you change your patronage of a company if that company then sicked their lawyers on your online community because you had the name of one of their products or brands in your url?

Don't support companies that send their lawyers against their most passionate supporters.

GW must find all the good, cheap, give-away even items on e-bay a bit galling.

Why even go to the shop?

IMHO, its the secondhand stuff they really should be concerned with, and can legitimately do *nothing* about on eBay or anywhere else. 20+ years of stuff clogging the secondary market or simply being given away to the new kid in the club. Its why "newer and sexier" rules their sculpting and marketing practices; its the only way they stay ahead of the tidal wave of old figures that THEY said were cooler than sex just a couple years before.

Too bad the club concept doesn't really exist widely in the US. I'd run a club in a heartbeat if I thought it would be practical.

I am curious, has GW sent any such C&D letters to 40K, LOTR, or Fantasy Battle sites? It just seems to me that GW is being abit too selective in where it goes after trademark and IP.

I talked to the my brother the lawyer about this last night actually and he seems to be of the opinion that this is a wise move for them from a legal standpoint but it's a jerk move from a hobby POV. He also mentioned that when it comes to trademark concerns there is a HUGE concern of having your trademark "genericized" and thus devalued and ultimately rendered useless. Evidentally this is why every drive-thru makes damned sure to ask if the alternate cola is okay when you ask for the wrong one.

-Eli

Trademark law. End of story. Defend it or abandon it. Disney has to send C&D letters to nursery schools which use pics of Mickey Mouse for the same reason.

Some of the names can be rephrased to remove "confusion" which is the legal threshold, BUT GW said that themselves in the letter.

I'm not going to defend their other policies, but this one is legit.

Trademark law doesn't allow for much in the way of picking and choosing which is why I find GW's particular way of handling it. It seems a bit dodgey if they are only sending them to sites for their Specialty Games and not their main ones.

Also there is a possible argument, especially in the case of Talk About Blood Bowl, of an assumed permission based on the fact that they knowingly allowed it to continue for quite some time.

-Eli

Too bad the club concept doesn't really exist widely in the US. I'd run a club in a heartbeat if I thought it would be practical.

Start it. It's totally practical once you get going. Just start by getting contact information and running a games day/tournament/something.

Start it. It's totally practical once you get going. Just start by getting contact information and running a games day/tournament/something.

I honestly don't think it's in the culture.

Beyond that, I don't have the resources to get one started, myself. I do have a regular gaming group of four people that meets in a dedicated gaming space, but it doesn't have room for more than the occasional extra couple of bodies.

But I don't want to get too far off topic again.

-Eli

Just realized that the LRB for Blood Bowl on GW's own site points people to the NAF's old site bloodbowl.net before the GW lawyers made them change their name.

One hand doesn't know what the other is doing.

Take a screen shot and save it .

Thisi s what I am talking about when I point out the selective nature of GW's attempts at "defending" their trademarks.

-Eli

Apparently a new version of Blood Bowl is coming out a la Space Hulk so GW is throwing its weight about on that particular IP.

I have no problem with a company protecting it's IP, however GW are really making themselves look overly heavy handed and rather stupid imo with how they're going about this.

Oh good, more Blood Bowl.

That's one game I'll find hard to resist…..or is it ?

@Bugstomper – Thisi s the point I've been trying to make. They within their rights to defend their IP/Trademark, but they really need to think about how they do it.

-Eli

It's also *not* within their legal rights to demand someone stops using the name of one of their products in a 3rd party discussion forum about that product. It's another case of deep pockets and a team of lawyers accomplishing more than they should because people will give in rather than fight.

Honestly, the best thing these forums could have done is told them to "get bent". GW may have no problem tossing out a cheap C&D but are they willing to commit resources toward a court appearance to shut down an internet forum. Beyond that, do they even really believe that they could win if it went to court.

For all we know their lawyers are telling them, "Might as well, it's not like anyway will do anythign about it"

-Eli

Relatedly, GW has demanded, and got, the removal of all fan-made files for GW games at BoardGameGeek.

This has caused some unhappiness.
link

@The Last Conformist – *starts slow sarcastic clapping in GW's direction*

I don't know about any site owners telling them to "get bent" but I know of two that are playing opossum.

What can You expect from someone that in the sort of history of wh4ok (last page of spanish rulebook) didn´t mention Andy Chambers as rule writer over 40K´s history?

Contrast this to Privateer Press officially allowing VASSAL to play warmachine and hordes.

This is pretty much the reason why, earlier this year I had an opportunity to get into GW games and decided not to. It's just not a friendly company, and this can rub off on the community to an extent.

As a visitor to THE Games Workshop, a single store in Hammersmith London, as my once a year treat in my early teens, I loved the idea of a shop that catered to the hobby I'd just discovered.
White Dwarf was a fun magazine and the store carried a variety of games, so one could usually find something that would be fun to play.
Since GW became all about the money, they have really lost the soul they used to have. After being asked to start up a games club here at the library, I went on a training day with some GW staff, very pleasant as individuals, and every time I visit one of the now ubiquitous stores, the retail and hobby staff are most friendly, some will even engage in a little chat about the "Evil Empire" but quite rightly refuse to be drawn into condemning GW business practices outright (who knows I may be a mystery shopper employed by their bosses.)
I like many of the homebrewed game system out there, and am currently trying out FAD, which is fast and dirty and seems to have done rather well from it's 7+ years of playtesting.
If you'd like a look, find it here. I am not employed or involved with the creators, but just like their style.
Have fun
weaselfierce.webs.com

The local GW stores absolutely shutdown as soon as you mention that you don't play their games. I go into the store to spend money occasionally for one or two minis or some terrain supplies, or sometimes just to see what the mentality of the store is. Invariably the conversation and friendly service ends abou the time they ask me, "So, what army do you play?" or "What are you painting?". My answer is never one of their games and they clam up or turn down the warmth.

-Eli

the same for me!!!!

While BGG is refusing to disclose the exact text of GW's letter, it seems that GW didn't request/demand that BGG remove ALL files, but several files from several game pages.

Since there were files posted on GW game pages that violated BGG's own rules for posting files, and some included scans of game components and rules that allowed for users to create pirate "print&play" copies of some of the old GW board games, it seems that at least part of the request was reasonable.

It looks like BGG decided – on their own – to delete most of the files relating to GW games, rather than offer to work with GW to resolve the problem by removing just the files that were clearly violating both GW and BGG guidelines.

BGG has not been communicating very well with its members about their decision-making process – possibly relying on the impulse to immediately assume the worst about anything that GW does.

Because everyone knows that Aldie @ BGG can't be trusted? I'm going to utilize that special feature now before I launch into something that lands me in the Dawghouse.

Aldie always makes good decisions?
Aldie can't overreact and do something that es off the people on his site?
Aldie/his staff didn't decide which files to take down, and then take down the files?
Aldie has done a tip-top job of communicating with his "community" about the issue, what exactly GW asked, and what BGG decided to do?
Aldie isn't in business?
Aldie doesn't take in ad revenue, based on the fact that his site gets lots of visitors?
Aldie doesn't sell stuff?
Aldie doesn't have rules at BGG that relate to what users can and can't post, and people violated those rules?

Aldie at BGG has stated that GW asked that four files be removed. Aldie later identified the four files, which all seemed to be reasonable to remove.

Aldie also says that GW left it up to him to handle other files that relate to GW product, using his own judgment about whether or not a file contained IP violations. This sounds more like a courtesy request than a demand to remove a metric butt-load of files, kind of like asking your neighbor to keep the noise down when they are hosting a party. If your neighbor decides to turn the music off and send everyone home, he's not doing it because you demanded it.

Oddly, when I have quoted Aldie on this (even directly quoting him in posts on BGG) people don't seem to believe that he meant what he wrote, because it shows GW being reasonable, and doesn't paint GW as an evil bully.

I bet some of GW's competitors have a sub class of sock puppets that spread anti-GW hate.

It's not fair that they try to make money and charge too much for miniatures that I like and buy anyway.

People, real people die everyday from diarrhea and starvation. We complain about a miniature company that charges $10 USD for toy models and tries to enforce their IP.

If you don't like GW, leave, let the pimply face teenagers have it. Play historicals with lead.

Why are their no rants about extremely overpriced plastic warjacks and their manufacturers ever and more ever like GW business practice?

Why are their no rants about extremely overpriced plastic warjacks

Because no-one wants the fugly things? :P

Anyway, could you link to Aldie's post(s) in question? I would appear to have missed it. (The only "official" BGG replies I've seen have been from Octavian.)

Edit: Scratch that, I found it. He seems to be saying that GW requested four specific files to be removed, and then that BGG wet the rest against the GW IP policy. Removing everything to be safe doesn't seem an unreasonable response – as user moderation let the violating stuff through the first time, the alternative would presumably be to have the BGG staff do the wetting, which given the amount of file would take ages.

"I bet some of GW's competitors have a sub class of sock puppets that spread anti-GW hate."

Really no need, as the fanbase produces plenty of loud opinion on both sides.

Also, with a few exceptions, all the industry types I've ever met at conventions or dealt with via email or otherwise have been decent people. This industry is a relatively friendly one internally.

Why are their no rants about extremely overpriced plastic warjacks and their manufacturers ever and more ever like GW business practice?

Oh, there were some rants about the plastic models. Then people *saw* the Exemplar Bastions (more specifically the amount of detail on them), and realized that they're about 60% the price of the metal equivalents. Also, the Warjacks have every part needed to make one of each 'Jack that shares the chassis. I'd call that a *good deal*, even if I don't like the way the Elf 'Jacks look.

Which of Privateer's business practices do you have a hard time with?